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laptop protection in an office network

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  laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-29 07:00 +0200
    Re: laptop protection in an office network Riley Baird <BM-2cVqnDuYbAU5do2DfJTrN7ZbAJ246S4XiX@bitmessage.ch> - 2015-08-29 08:00 +0200
      Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-29 08:20 +0200
        Re: laptop protection in an office network Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2015-08-29 09:20 +0200
          Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-29 10:20 +0200
            Re: laptop protection in an office network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-08-29 14:00 +0200
              Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-29 18:20 +0200
                Re: laptop protection in an office network Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2015-08-29 18:30 +0200
              Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-29 20:30 +0200
                Re: laptop protection in an office network Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 20:40 +0200
                  Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-29 21:10 +0200
                    Re: laptop protection in an office network Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 21:30 +0200
                      Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-29 21:50 +0200
                    Re: laptop protection in an office network Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-30 02:40 +0200
                      Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-30 03:30 +0200
                        Re: laptop protection in an office network Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-30 03:40 +0200
                          Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-30 04:30 +0200
                            Re: laptop protection in an office network Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2015-08-30 04:50 +0200
                              Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-30 05:00 +0200
                              Re: laptop protection in an office network Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 00:20 +0200
                            Re: laptop protection in an office network Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-30 05:10 +0200
                              Re: laptop protection in an office network David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-08-30 06:40 +0200
                                Re: laptop protection in an office network Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-30 07:30 +0200
                            Re: laptop protection in an office network Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> - 2015-08-31 03:50 +0200
                              quality keyboards rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-31 09:10 +0200
                                Re: quality keyboards Petter Adsen <petter@synth.no> - 2015-08-31 09:40 +0200
                                  Re: quality keyboards "Gian Uberto Lauri" <saint@eng.it>  - 2015-08-31 09:50 +0200
                                    Re: quality keyboards Petter Adsen <petter@synth.no> - 2015-08-31 12:00 +0200
                                      Re: quality keyboards Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 13:20 +0200
                                        Re: quality keyboards Petter Adsen <petter@synth.no> - 2015-08-31 14:30 +0200
                                        Re: quality keyboards "Gian Uberto Lauri" <saint@eng.it>  - 2015-08-31 14:40 +0200
                                          Re: quality keyboards Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 15:50 +0200
                                            Re: quality keyboards Petter Adsen <petter@synth.no> - 2015-08-31 16:40 +0200
                                              Re: quality keyboards "Gian Uberto Lauri" <saint@eng.it>  - 2015-08-31 17:00 +0200
                                              Re: quality keyboards Anthony Maples <anthonym7009@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 00:10 +0200
                                          Re: quality keyboards "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2015-08-31 16:10 +0200
                                  Re: quality keyboards Haines Brown <haines@histomat.net> - 2015-08-31 13:00 +0200
                                    Re: quality keyboards Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2015-08-31 14:20 +0200
                                Re: quality keyboards Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 13:10 +0200
                                  Re: quality keyboards Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-31 14:30 +0200
                                    Re: quality keyboards Petter Adsen <petter@synth.no> - 2015-08-31 15:00 +0200
                                      Re: quality keyboards "Gian Uberto Lauri" <saint@eng.it>  - 2015-08-31 15:10 +0200
                                      Re: quality keyboards Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 15:10 +0200
                                Re: quality keyboards Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> - 2015-08-31 13:20 +0200
                                Re: quality keyboards David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-08-31 17:40 +0200
                                  Re: quality keyboards Glenn English <ghe@slsware.net> - 2015-08-31 18:30 +0200
                                Re: quality keyboards Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2015-08-31 21:50 +0200
                  Re: laptop protection in an office network Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-29 21:10 +0200
                    Re: laptop protection in an office network Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 21:20 +0200
                      Re: laptop protection in an office network Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-29 21:50 +0200
                        Re: laptop protection in an office network Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 22:00 +0200
                          Re: laptop protection in an office network Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-30 00:10 +0200
                            Re: laptop protection in an office network Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 00:30 +0200
                              Re: laptop protection in an office network Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-30 00:50 +0200
                            Re: laptop protection in an office network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-08-30 09:40 +0200
                              Re: laptop protection in an office network Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-30 16:10 +0200
                                Re: laptop protection in an office network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-08-30 18:30 +0200
                                  Re: laptop protection in an office network Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-30 20:50 +0200
                    Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-29 21:30 +0200
                      Re: laptop protection in an office network Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-29 22:00 +0200
                        Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-29 22:30 +0200
                          Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-29 22:50 +0200
                            Re: laptop protection in an office network Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-08-29 23:40 +0200
                Re: laptop protection in an office network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-08-29 23:00 +0200
                  Re: laptop protection in an office network Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-30 00:30 +0200
                    Re: laptop protection in an office network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-08-30 09:50 +0200
                      Re: laptop protection in an office network Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2015-08-30 10:30 +0200
                        Re: laptop protection in an office network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-08-30 10:40 +0200
                  Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-30 01:50 +0200
                    Re: laptop protection in an office network Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-08-30 09:30 +0200
                    Re: laptop protection in an office network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-08-30 10:30 +0200
                      Re: laptop protection in an office network rlharris@oplink.net - 2015-08-30 11:10 +0200
                        Re: laptop protection in an office network Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-30 21:10 +0200

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#157096

On Saturday 29 August 2015 22:20:45 rlharris@oplink.net wrote:

> On Sat, August 29, 2015 8:33 pm, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday 29 August 2015 21:24:47 rlharris@oplink.net wrote:
> >> Forgive me; my fingers are dyslexic.
> >
> > So are mine.  They don't type what I tell them to lots of the time.
> > Coulnd't be the accumulated years (nearly 81) could it?
>
> Not necessarily.
>
> From time to time, I have found a sudden, large increase in the number
> of typographical errors in the documents which I produce.  And several
> times, investigation has revealed that the problem lies in a worn-out
> keyboard.
>
> Back in the 1960's and 1970's, manufacturers such as Honeywell and
> Cherry made keyswitches with a life rating in the tens of millions or
> even hundreds of millions of keystrokes.  Nowadays, it is becoming
> difficult to find a keyboard with a rating in the tens of thousands of
> keystrokes.
>
> Many manufacturers today have a poor keyswitch design which utilizes
> low-quality plastics; they depend upon a lubricant such as wax to keep
> the plunger working freely.  And when the wax wears away, the plunger
> begins to stick.  And when the plunger does not depress freely, the
> result is a multitude of typographical errors.
>
> RLH

One of the things I am always in search of, is a keyboard that will keep 
on working when its up to the family tools in metallic sawdust, aka 
swarf.  Space is also a premium, and lately I have migrated this machine 
and  my 3 cnc machines to a logitek k360 board, whose key sides are 
vertical as opposed to the usual tapered side keys, which allow a 
curlyque of cut steel to follow the key down, and then wedge it down.  
The K360 helps in that regard tremendously.

I found an ACER keyboard that at first seemed to be ideal for such an 
environment, but one often picks up the keyboard and takes it to the 
machine so you can see what you are doing much more precisely when doing 
the setup to run a job.  Unfortunately it has rows of extra "media keys" 
along the edges, and picking it up without pressing one of those is well 
nigh impossible.

So its back to the K360, with its oddly placed pageup & pagedown keys 
which are normally used to raise or lower the head on a milling machine.

It Just Works(TM) if I can get used to the compact layout. ;-)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#157099

Quoting Gene Heskett (gheskett@wdtv.com):

> I found an ACER keyboard that at first seemed to be ideal for such an 
> environment, but one often picks up the keyboard and takes it to the 
> machine so you can see what you are doing much more precisely when doing 
> the setup to run a job.  Unfortunately it has rows of extra "media keys" 
> along the edges, and picking it up without pressing one of those is well 
> nigh impossible.

Can you not find out teir codes and redefine them no no-ops or
something harmless? (I do this in my window manager.)

Cheers,
David.

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#157101

On Sunday 30 August 2015 00:38:49 David Wright wrote:

> Quoting Gene Heskett (gheskett@wdtv.com):
> > I found an ACER keyboard that at first seemed to be ideal for such
> > an environment, but one often picks up the keyboard and takes it to
> > the machine so you can see what you are doing much more precisely
> > when doing the setup to run a job.  Unfortunately it has rows of
> > extra "media keys" along the edges, and picking it up without
> > pressing one of those is well nigh impossible.
>
> Can you not find out teir codes and redefine them no no-ops or
> something harmless? (I do this in my window manager.)
>
> Cheers,
> David.

That thought crossed my mind, very fleetingly though as it was a PS2 
wired keyboard, and the cord as always, was about 4 feet too short.
I have the workstation, monitor etc that runs it about 4 feet away just 
to help keep that area clean.  Clean however is relative. ;-)  The air 
hose gets used, frequently.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#157159

On 30/08/15 03:20, rlharris@oplink.net wrote:
> Back in the 1960's and 1970's, manufacturers such as Honeywell and Cherry
> made keyswitches with a life rating in the tens of millions or even
> hundreds of millions of keystrokes.

Cherry still *are* (or at some point resumed) making mechanical 
keyswitches with a rated life in the tens of millions, and the Internet 
is full of mail-order vendors selling keyboards (from several different 
manufacturers) built with those Cherry keyswitches.

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#157179 — quality keyboards

On Sun, August 30, 2015 8:49 pm, Martin Read wrote:
> Cherry still *are* (or at some point resumed) making mechanical
> keyswitches with a rated life in the tens of millions, and the Internet is
> full of mail-order vendors selling keyboards (from several different
> manufacturers) built with those Cherry keyswitches.

How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for $10 or
$15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality keyboard, or
replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six months?

And in our present Window$-dominated, rodent-oriented, game-addicted and
generally-lliterate society, is there anyone who types more than a few
dozen keystrokes a day for the purpose of intelligent conversation --
other than subscribers to a mail list such as this, and the authors of
pulp fiction?  (And no, I do not consider messages transmitted by
"texting" or "twitter" to be intelligent conversation.)

RLH

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#157183 — Re: quality keyboards

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 02:09:23 -0500
rlharris@oplink.net wrote:

> On Sun, August 30, 2015 8:49 pm, Martin Read wrote:
> > Cherry still *are* (or at some point resumed) making mechanical
> > keyswitches with a rated life in the tens of millions, and the Internet is
> > full of mail-order vendors selling keyboards (from several different
> > manufacturers) built with those Cherry keyswitches.
> 
> How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for $10 or
> $15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality keyboard, or
> replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six months?

I while back I bought a Razer Black Widow mechanical keyboard, and it
cost about $100. They claim[1] that the switches will last up to 60
million keystrokes, and sell both silent and clicky types. It's a
really nicely built keyboard, and IMO good for typing. It also has USB
and audio pass-through.

(You need a small Python script to enable the macro keys under Linux,
as Razer themselves seem quite uninterested in supporting that.)

Is it worth the money? I can't comment on the durability, as it's not
that long ago since I bought it, but IMO it's comfortable enough that
I'll buy another one if something happens to it.

Petter

[1] http://www.razerzone.com/razer-mechanical-switches

-- 
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."

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#157186 — Re: quality keyboards

Petter Adsen writes:
 > On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 02:09:23 -0500
 > rlharris@oplink.net wrote:
 > 
 > > On Sun, August 30, 2015 8:49 pm, Martin Read wrote:
 > > > Cherry still *are* (or at some point resumed) making mechanical
 > > > keyswitches with a rated life in the tens of millions, and the Internet is
 > > > full of mail-order vendors selling keyboards (from several different
 > > > manufacturers) built with those Cherry keyswitches.
 > > 
 > > How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for $10 or
 > > $15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality keyboard, or
 > > replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six months?
 > 
 > I while back I bought a Razer Black Widow mechanical keyboard, and it
 > cost about $100. They claim[1] that the switches will last up to 60
 > million keystrokes, and sell both silent and clicky types. It's a
 > really nicely built keyboard, and IMO good for typing. It also has USB
 > and audio pass-through.

I have a Cherry keyboard under my fingers. After some years of
continuous usage (it's my office keyboard) the original caps lost the
marking and I got the chance to make a custom coloured key-set.

The keyboard is still the most comfortable I ever used.

I'm planning giving Razer a try, I am willing to buy a K95 with all the left
keys - they recall me the old Sun keyboards I used as a student.

The RGB version could let me emulate the colors of my custom keyset
(black fo alphanumeric keys, blue for "shifts", green "non printable",
yellow for cursor movement, gray for function, red for esc and 'system
requests' and orange for insert). But this is just to make a geek happy.

The Cherry microswitches will make your fingers happy!

-- 
                                                Gian
                                       Friends will be friends
                                          right to the end!

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#157194 — Re: quality keyboards

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 09:45:03 +0200
"Gian Uberto Lauri" <saint@eng.it>  wrote:

> Petter Adsen writes:
>  > On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 02:09:23 -0500
>  > rlharris@oplink.net wrote:
>  > > How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for $10 or
>  > > $15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality keyboard, or
>  > > replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six months?
>  > 
>  > I while back I bought a Razer Black Widow mechanical keyboard, and it
>  > cost about $100. They claim[1] that the switches will last up to 60
>  > million keystrokes, and sell both silent and clicky types. It's a
>  > really nicely built keyboard, and IMO good for typing. It also has USB
>  > and audio pass-through.
> 
> I have a Cherry keyboard under my fingers. After some years of
> continuous usage (it's my office keyboard) the original caps lost the
> marking and I got the chance to make a custom coloured key-set.
> 
> The keyboard is still the most comfortable I ever used.
> 
> I'm planning giving Razer a try, I am willing to buy a K95 with all the left
> keys - they recall me the old Sun keyboards I used as a student.
>
> The RGB version could let me emulate the colors of my custom keyset
> (black fo alphanumeric keys, blue for "shifts", green "non printable",
> yellow for cursor movement, gray for function, red for esc and 'system
> requests' and orange for insert). But this is just to make a geek happy.

I do not know if that will work under Linux, you might want to check out
how the colors-thingy is set up. The keyboard I've got is the one with
no colored lights, so I can't test it, but all the other extra features
of this keyboard are configured via Windows-only "cloud" software and
require an initialization sequence to be sent. The Python script that
is available for Linux only enables the macro keys and the Fn + media
key combinations, AFAIK.

The Windows software will also auto-update the firmware in the
keyboard, and some people have had problems with initializing the extra
keys under Linux after updating the firmware. I've never run the Windows
software, and my keyboard works fine.

The keyboard model with no lights is also quite a bit cheaper, so you
might want to do some research before you get one with lights. You
could of course ask Razer for the information necessary to enable that
functionality yourself, but they seem quite uninterested in Linux.

> The Cherry microswitches will make your fingers happy!

So will the Razer mechanical switches, they are really nice for typing.
AFAIK all the keyboards they make except the BlackWidow series use
membranes, and I have no experience with those.

All in all, there are reasons for not choosing Razer if you run Linux,
but IMO they had the most comfortable keyboards that were readily
available in local shops when I needed one, and I'm very happy with it.

Petter

-- 
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."

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#157201 — Re: quality keyboards

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 6:52 PM, Petter Adsen <petter@synth.no> wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 09:45:03 +0200
> "Gian Uberto Lauri" <saint@eng.it>  wrote:
>
>> Petter Adsen writes:
>>  > On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 02:09:23 -0500
>>  > rlharris@oplink.net wrote:
>>  > > How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for $10 or
>>  > > $15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality keyboard, or
>>  > > replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six months?
>>  >
>>  > I while back I bought a Razer Black Widow mechanical keyboard, and it
>>  > cost about $100. They claim[1] that the switches will last up to 60
>>  > million keystrokes, and sell both silent and clicky types. It's a
>>  > really nicely built keyboard, and IMO good for typing. It also has USB
>>  > and audio pass-through.
>>
>> I have a Cherry keyboard under my fingers. After some years of
>> continuous usage (it's my office keyboard) the original caps lost the
>> marking and I got the chance to make a custom coloured key-set.
>>
>> The keyboard is still the most comfortable I ever used.
>>
>> I'm planning giving Razer a try, I am willing to buy a K95 with all the left
>> keys - they recall me the old Sun keyboards I used as a student.
>>
>> The RGB version could let me emulate the colors of my custom keyset
>> (black fo alphanumeric keys, blue for "shifts", green "non printable",
>> yellow for cursor movement, gray for function, red for esc and 'system
>> requests' and orange for insert). But this is just to make a geek happy.
>
> I do not know if that will work under Linux, you might want to check out
> how the colors-thingy is set up. The keyboard I've got is the one with
> no colored lights, so I can't test it, but all the other extra features
> of this keyboard are configured via Windows-only "cloud" software and
> require an initialization sequence to be sent. The Python script that
> is available for Linux only enables the macro keys and the Fn + media
> key combinations, AFAIK.
>
> The Windows software will also auto-update the firmware in the
> keyboard,

Say what? Since when does a keyboard need a firmware update?

Hmm. Maybe the USB controller stuff, but still, ...

> and some people have had problems with initializing the extra
> keys under Linux after updating the firmware. I've never run the Windows
> software, and my keyboard works fine.
>
> The keyboard model with no lights is also quite a bit cheaper, so you
> might want to do some research before you get one with lights. You
> could of course ask Razer for the information necessary to enable that
> functionality yourself, but they seem quite uninterested in Linux.

Can you tell what the micro-controller is? Maybe try re-programming it?

The fun thing about mechanical keyboards is that it should be rather
easy to rip out the controller in the keyboard and put your own
controller in. Keyboard controllers are not hard, and programming one
might even be a fun weekend project.

Well, except, I guess, for the USB support. That will take a bit of
study in advance, I guess, and may eat more than a single weekend. USB
is way overkill for keyboards, really. Convenient in some ways, but
overkill.

>[...]

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

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#157207 — Re: quality keyboards

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:15:44 +0900
Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 6:52 PM, Petter Adsen <petter@synth.no> wrote:
> > The Windows software will also auto-update the firmware in the
> > keyboard,
> 
> Say what? Since when does a keyboard need a firmware update?
> 
> Hmm. Maybe the USB controller stuff, but still, ...

I have absolutely no idea, other than reading reports of people having
a working keyboard until the Windows software updated the firmware. The
website says:

"Razer Synapse 2.0 downloads driver and firmware updates for your Razer
devices automatically, so your products are always in optimum condition for winning."

Whatever that means.

> > The keyboard model with no lights is also quite a bit cheaper, so you
> > might want to do some research before you get one with lights. You
> > could of course ask Razer for the information necessary to enable that
> > functionality yourself, but they seem quite uninterested in Linux.
> 
> Can you tell what the micro-controller is? Maybe try re-programming it?

Sorry. I know naaathing. For some reason it also registers as a mouse,
just as my new Logitech mouse also thinks it's a keyboard. Before
running the Python script I mentioned earlier, some keys don't send any
events at all. AFAIK the script sends some sort of initialization
sequence that enables them.

If you can tell me how to find out in a way that doesn't involve
ripping the keyboard apart, I'd be happy to tell you.

Petter

-- 
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."

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#157209 — Re: quality keyboards

Joel Rees writes:
 > 
 > Say what? Since when does a keyboard need a firmware update?
 > 
 > Hmm. Maybe the USB controller stuff, but still, ...

Nope. Check the item before engaging the fingers :).

These keyboard have some on board controller that is responsible to
controlling the color of each key according to a fixed or dynamic
pattern. "Very useful things" [1] like color pattern changing with
time or keys that change the color when you type them - was not it
easy enough to peek a secret password watching the fingers typing it?

Furthermore they should allow some form of "macro". I am not sure of
what they are, but they smell like the programmable keys of the
venerable Qume 102 I used hooked to an AT&T 3B2, a long time ago.

 > Can you tell what the micro-controller is? Maybe try re-programming it?

They are working on reverse-engineering the communication protocol and
re-programming instructions.

[1] they could be used for some blinkenlights at boot time.
"Das computermachineboot ist gestaren, relaxen und watchen das
blinkenlichten."

-- 
 /\           ___                                    Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____               African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamico            meaning "I can
\/                 coltivatore diretto di software       not install
     già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...                Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO

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#157214 — Re: quality keyboards

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@eng.it> wrote:
> Joel Rees writes:
>  >
>  > Say what? Since when does a keyboard need a firmware update?
>  >
>  > Hmm. Maybe the USB controller stuff, but still, ...
>
> Nope. Check the item before engaging the fingers :).

Well, actually, I was responding to Petter, I think, whose keyboard
does not have the colored lights?

Even so, ...

> These keyboard have some on board controller that is responsible to
> controlling the color of each key according to a fixed or dynamic
> pattern. "Very useful things" [1] like color pattern changing with
> time or keys that change the color when you type them - was not it
> easy enough to peek a secret password watching the fingers typing it?

... reprogrammability is one thing. I think updates from the
manufacturer is another.

Random reprogrammability is a security issue, but one generally
doesn't try to deal with the security issues inside the keyboard.
Updating vulnerable keyboard drivers in the OS, yes. In the keyboard
itself, I can't see that.

> Furthermore they should allow some form of "macro". I am not sure of
> what they are, but they smell like the programmable keys of the
> venerable Qume 102 I used hooked to an AT&T 3B2,

Heh. I have a couple of 7300s (I think it was) sitting in the basement
somewhere in my sister's house in the states. Fifteen years ago, I
often found myself wishing they were here, not there. Just to play
with, of course.

> a long time ago.

But isn't this also about reprogrammability?

>  > Can you tell what the micro-controller is? Maybe try re-programming it?
>
> They are working on reverse-engineering the communication protocol and
> re-programming instructions.

Do tell: Who are _they_? And do they have a website?

> [1] they could be used for some blinkenlights at boot time.
> "Das computermachineboot ist gestaren, relaxen und watchen das
> blinkenlichten."

Fun stuff.

> --
>  /\           ___                                    Ubuntu: ancient
> /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____               African word
>   //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamico            meaning "I can
> \/                 coltivatore diretto di software       not install
>      già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...                Debian"
>
> Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO
>

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

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#157218 — Re: quality keyboards

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 22:40:22 +0900
Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@eng.it> wrote:
> > Joel Rees writes:
> >  >
> >  > Say what? Since when does a keyboard need a firmware update?
> >  >
> >  > Hmm. Maybe the USB controller stuff, but still, ...
> >
> > Nope. Check the item before engaging the fingers :).
> 
> Well, actually, I was responding to Petter, I think, whose keyboard
> does not have the colored lights?

No, it doesn't. But it has 5 macro keys, intended to be used in
Windows games for sending series of keystrokes. Under Linux, they
simply send normal keycodes, but I believe the Windows drivers and
software do more than that. There are also a couple of other keys that
I do not know the intended use of - maybe there is some magic that needs
firmware there.

> >  > Can you tell what the micro-controller is? Maybe try re-programming it?
> >
> > They are working on reverse-engineering the communication protocol and
> > re-programming instructions.
> 
> Do tell: Who are _they_? And do they have a website?

And if this concerns Razer keyboards, I'd also be very interested.

Petter

-- 
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."

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#157220 — Re: quality keyboards

Petter Adsen writes:

 > No, it doesn't. But it has 5 macro keys, intended to be used in
 > Windows games for sending series of keystrokes. Under Linux, they
 > simply send normal keycodes, but I believe the Windows drivers and
 > software do more than that.

Once upon a long ago there was a daemon used to respond to the
"special keys" (audio up, down, mail, browser and such) of a Logitech
keyboard.

I dismissed it with the Logitech keyboard once I purchased my Cherry
one.

But it could be hacked... It could be interesting to have the
old Qume terminals...

-- 
 /\           ___                                    Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____               African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamico            meaning "I can
\/                 coltivatore diretto di software       not install
     già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...                Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO

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#157264 — Re: quality keyboards

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 08/31/2015 10:06 AM, Petter Adsen wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 22:40:22 +0900
> Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@eng.it> wrote:
>>> Joel Rees writes:
>>>  >
>>>  > Say what? Since when does a keyboard need a firmware update?
>>>  >
>>>  > Hmm. Maybe the USB controller stuff, but still, ...
>>>
>>> Nope. Check the item before engaging the fingers :).
>>
>> Well, actually, I was responding to Petter, I think, whose keyboard
>> does not have the colored lights?
> 
> No, it doesn't. But it has 5 macro keys, intended to be used in
> Windows games for sending series of keystrokes. Under Linux, they
> simply send normal keycodes, but I believe the Windows drivers and
> software do more than that. There are also a couple of other keys that
> I do not know the intended use of - maybe there is some magic that needs
> firmware there.
> 
>>>  > Can you tell what the micro-controller is? Maybe try re-programming it?
>>>
>>> They are working on reverse-engineering the communication protocol and
>>> re-programming instructions.
>>
>> Do tell: Who are _they_? And do they have a website?
> 
> And if this concerns Razer keyboards, I'd also be very interested.
> 
> Petter
> 

A related article that I found a while ago:
https://spritesmods.com/?art=rapidisnake
It doesn't sound like it's for any of your keyboards, but it proves that
it is definitely possible to re-write keyboard firmware.

Also, if you find yourself with an excessive amount of free time, you
might want to take a look at some of the other projects that he's done;
they are really interesting.



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#157216 — Re: quality keyboards

Hi,

Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:
> "Das computermachineboot ist gestaren, relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten."

Che bella macchina.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#157199 — Re: quality keyboards

Back in the 1990s I purchased several IBM M-5 keyboards for about $5
each. The only one that died was the one I poured alcohol into in order
to clean it out. Perhaps some are still around at a reasonable price.

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#157204 — Re: quality keyboards

On 2015-08-31, Haines Brown <haines@histomat.net> wrote:

> Back in the 1990s I purchased several IBM M-5 keyboards for about $5
> each. The only one that died was the one I poured alcohol into in order
> to clean it out. Perhaps some are still around at a reasonable price.
>
>

Well, at least it died drunk so it didn't suffer.

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#157200 — Re: quality keyboards

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 4:09 PM,  <rlharris@oplink.net> wrote:
> On Sun, August 30, 2015 8:49 pm, Martin Read wrote:
>> Cherry still *are* (or at some point resumed) making mechanical
>> keyswitches with a rated life in the tens of millions, and the Internet is
>> full of mail-order vendors selling keyboards (from several different
>> manufacturers) built with those Cherry keyswitches.
>
> How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for $10 or
> $15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality keyboard, or
> replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six months?
>
> And in our present Window$-dominated, rodent-oriented, game-addicted and
> generally-lliterate society, is there anyone who types more than a few
> dozen keystrokes a day for the purpose of intelligent conversation --
> other than subscribers to a mail list such as this, and the authors of
> pulp fiction?  (And no, I do not consider messages transmitted by
> "texting" or "twitter" to be intelligent conversation.)

Petter points out the comfort benefits. For some, however, it's not
just comfort.

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

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#157206 — Re: quality keyboards

On Monday 31 August 2015 07:04:22 Joel Rees wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 4:09 PM,  <rlharris@oplink.net> wrote:
> > On Sun, August 30, 2015 8:49 pm, Martin Read wrote:
> >> Cherry still *are* (or at some point resumed) making mechanical
> >> keyswitches with a rated life in the tens of millions, and the
> >> Internet is full of mail-order vendors selling keyboards (from
> >> several different manufacturers) built with those Cherry
> >> keyswitches.
> >
> > How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for
> > $10 or $15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality
> > keyboard, or replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six
> > months?
> >
> > And in our present Window$-dominated, rodent-oriented, game-addicted
> > and generally-lliterate society, is there anyone who types more than
> > a few dozen keystrokes a day for the purpose of intelligent
> > conversation -- other than subscribers to a mail list such as this,
> > and the authors of pulp fiction?  (And no, I do not consider
> > messages transmitted by "texting" or "twitter" to be intelligent
> > conversation.)
>
> Petter points out the comfort benefits. For some, however, it's not
> just comfort.

Correct.

There is another aspect of what I call a usable keyboard. My retirement 
hobbies include cnc'ing the usual machine shop stuff, like mills and 
lathes.  Thats a "dirty" environment, where a cut chip of metal can fly 
several feet, depending on method of keeping the cutting tools workspace 
reasonably clear of these chips, which will adversely effect the smooth 
surface of the cut if allowed to just lay there and be recut by the 
passage of the tools next cutting edge.  So keyboards need to be both 
protected from this debris, but also built to ignore it as much as 
possible.  The net result is a tendency to, when keyboard shopping, to 
stay well away from keyboards whose keycaps are molded with tapered 
sides surrounded by a close fitting plastic molding.  I have an ACER 
keyboard with vertical sided keys and no surrounding mask, keycaps are 
directly on the stem of the key that if buried in this "swarf" might not 
go down and register a keypress because there is something under the 
keycap.  That would be the much preferable failure mode, whereas the 
taper sided keycap, with the usual overlay mask, allows this materiel to 
follow the key down, then wedge it down.

Thats a very bad dog and can cost dearly in broken tooling or machinery.

Unforch, while the ACER is good in that regard, it has about a half a 
dozen multimedia related keys right at the top edge, and there is no way 
to pick it up and take it to the machine as its impossible to pick it up 
without pressing these kays, plus its a corded ps2 board with too short 
a cord.  So at the present time, I have the wireless Logitech K360 on 
all 4 machines. Vertical sided keycaps that don't easily jam, and a 
clear area on the back edge, well centered that can be used to pick it 
up and take it to the machine using its long range wireless.  The layout 
is not ideal by any stretch, but its the most usable keyboard for me.  
And its relatively cheap.  And about 6" narrower than most of 
the "comfort" keyboards, leaving room to keep a rodent handy to its 
right on a 20" wide shelf.

Speaking of rodents, who, in posession of a brain cell, thinks the finger 
keys need to register a house fly landing on them?  I don't own one that 
I haven't had to take apart and add additional springs under the buttons 
so I have to consciously press the button.  Having to consciously hold 
the fingers away from the buttons so an accidental click isn't 
registered is extremely tiring, and half a ball point pen spring in the 
right place makes them a pleasure to use.  Most mice have a handy place 
molded in to put the spring into, so why the heck don't they put it in 
and raise the price a buck?  Boggles my mind.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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