Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > linux.debian.user > #156861 > unrolled thread

Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray

Back to article view | Back to linux.debian.user

This discussion starts older than the indexed window; earlier articles aren't shown. The article labeled Started by below is the oldest one visible, not the original post.

Contents

  Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2015-08-27 09:10 +0200
    Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-27 10:30 +0200
      Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2015-08-27 11:50 +0200
        Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 12:30 +0200
          Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2015-08-27 13:10 +0200
            Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 13:40 +0200
              Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2015-08-27 15:40 +0200
          Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray ken <gebser@mousecar.com> - 2015-08-27 16:30 +0200
            Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2015-08-27 18:10 +0200
          Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-27 18:30 +0200
            Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 19:50 +0200
              Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2015-08-27 20:20 +0200
                Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-28 04:10 +0200
        Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-27 18:10 +0200
          Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2015-08-27 19:30 +0200
          Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 21:50 +0200
            Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-28 04:20 +0200
              Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 09:30 +0200
    Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2015-08-27 17:00 +0200
      Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2015-08-27 18:10 +0200
        Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2015-08-27 20:40 +0200
          Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 21:50 +0200
            Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 03:00 +0200
            Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2015-08-28 07:30 +0200
              Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 09:40 +0200
                Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2015-08-29 08:10 +0200
          Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2015-08-27 22:20 +0200
            Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 00:20 +0200
              Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2015-08-28 11:00 +0200
                Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 01:40 +0200
            Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-28 04:20 +0200
            Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2015-08-28 07:50 +0200
    Hh "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 23:50 +0200

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

#156861 — Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray

Hi,

the reason why i am insisiting in getting facts is that
i want to know whether drive firmware can get altered
by just inserting and reading a commercial Blu-ray disc.

I sincerely doubt that the drive firmware will do this,
but rather believe it is about software on the level
of operating system and application software.
(Both of kinds which i would not touch with fire tongs.)


i wrote:
> > Are you sure that this applies to Blu-ray recorders in
> > computers ?
> > [...]
> > i get the impression that it only
> >  applies to consumer BD players, and that "firmware" actually
> > means the operating system of the player, not the firmware
> > of the Blu-ray drive that's built into this living room
> > computer.

T.J. Duchene wrote:
> Players
> like WinDVD 8 have had their AACS keys revoked, and with them the
> ability to play BD discs.

But WinDVD 8 is MS-Windows software, not drive firmware.


> Since I will
> not encourage you to break the DRM, the subject has no resolution.

Just to be clear. I use BD and DVD drives for data storage,
not for watching videos or for copying what the seller does
not want to be copied.
DRM does not righteously affect me, therefore.


> The consortium that lords over Blu-ray can and will "brick" you
> expensive players in the name of "copy protection."

For now you only showed an example of MS-Windows software
which turns against you. Maybe you have paid for it. Then you
have reason to feel betrayed. But that's not even comsumer
player "firmware". It's MS-Windows. What do you expect ?


> all I would have
> to do is program any BD drive to make an exact logical copy of the disc:
> copy protection and all notwithstanding.

Would you be willing to share the knowledge how you program
a BD drive ? Some example SCSI commands would be a good start.


>  You're paying for it, and you will never be
> able to play it back on any device without their blessing, and if they
> want to, they can take that away at any time.

What i burn on my LG GGW-H20L can be read on my LG GGC-H20L
(a combo joke), my Optiarc BD-5300S (growler joke), and my
LG BH16NS40 (all so civilized joke).

I need no blessing from "them" because i am the one who
decides over the SCSI transaction dialog between my burn
software and the drives.
And i need no player software from "them" because i do not
play. At best i read what is stored on the BD disc. This i
do either by the Linux block device driver (e.g. read(2))
or via SCSI transactions (which i decide how they should
happen via ioctl(SG_IO)).

No "them" involved except LKML, FSF, Debian, their friends,
my own software, and the firmwares of the drives.
All other "theys" can keep their prescious bit patterns and
also may get knotted.


> BD is not cost effective for everyday storage, so as far as Linux is
> concerned, BD is really a moot point. 

One BD spares you four exchanges of the DVD in the drive
when you make a large backup.
A BD allows to make incremental backups up to 23 GiB whereas
DVD+R DL allows only 8 GiB of poor reliablilty.
With reliable DVD media you are restricted to 4.4 GiB.

Of course, hard disks are cheaper per GB. But they have other
needs when it comes to long term storage or rough transport.
Further they are large and non divisible.

I would commercially compare BD media to USB sticks.
The sellers of BD-RE take care to stay cheaper than the
sellers of 16 or 32 GiB sticks.

One big problem is that the burners deteriorate with time.
The begin to fail recording readable data. But this affects
only new recordings. The old recorded media do not die with
the burner that wrote them. 


I believe no BD problem is so sincere as the problem of
USB sticks which can be programmed to emulate a keyboard.
  http://www.zdnet.com/article/usb-flash-drives-masquerading-as-keyboards-mean-more-byod-security-headaches/

So i have few scruples to put a foreign BD into my
drives but would not allow a foreign device to be
plugged into my USB sockets.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#156867

On Thursday 27 August 2015 03:03:14 Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hi,
>
> the reason why i am insisiting in getting facts is that
> i want to know whether drive firmware can get altered
> by just inserting and reading a commercial Blu-ray disc.

Absolutely Thomas.  All of those things look for a key in the private 
area of the disks leader, and if that key is found, will happily jump 
into the drives firmware update routine, updating, or bricking, the 
drive as that attacker wishes.

We should keep in mind that it was Sony Music whose published cd's 
contained code to check the kind of drive it was being played in, and if 
the drive had a digital output such as the usual 40 pin atapi drive 
cable, then it was in a computer, and they bricked the drive.

They blamed it on an anti-piracy effort, but to my knowledge they never 
paid for a single bricked drive, nor did they ever apologize to the 
public for damaging their stuff.  The retailers who should have cared, 
just moved the known bad disks to the $9.95 sale bin.  Some of that crap 
is still in the $5 bin in the middle of the aisle, so savvy buyers 
should leave them there.

A huge hullabaloo at the time, a good fraction of a decade ago for those 
with short memories.  And Sony's corporate people should take note that 
this person has never carried another Sony product of any kind to the 
cash register.

Other gear makers make better stuff anyway.

> I sincerely doubt that the drive firmware will do this,
> but rather believe it is about software on the level
> of operating system and application software.
> (Both of kinds which i would not touch with fire tongs.)
>
> i wrote:
> > > Are you sure that this applies to Blu-ray recorders in
> > > computers ?
> > > [...]
> > > i get the impression that it only
> > >  applies to consumer BD players, and that "firmware" actually
> > > means the operating system of the player, not the firmware
> > > of the Blu-ray drive that's built into this living room
> > > computer.

Nope, read what I wrote above, the firmware in the drive is the attack 
target.
>
> T.J. Duchene wrote:
> > Players
> > like WinDVD 8 have had their AACS keys revoked, and with them the
> > ability to play BD discs.
>
> But WinDVD 8 is MS-Windows software, not drive firmware.
>
> > Since I will
> > not encourage you to break the DRM, the subject has no resolution.
>
> Just to be clear. I use BD and DVD drives for data storage,
> not for watching videos or for copying what the seller does
> not want to be copied.
> DRM does not righteously affect me, therefore.
>
> > The consortium that lords over Blu-ray can and will "brick" you
> > expensive players in the name of "copy protection."
>
> For now you only showed an example of MS-Windows software
> which turns against you. Maybe you have paid for it. Then you
> have reason to feel betrayed. But that's not even comsumer
> player "firmware". It's MS-Windows. What do you expect ?
>
> > all I would have
> > to do is program any BD drive to make an exact logical copy of the
> > disc: copy protection and all notwithstanding.
>
> Would you be willing to share the knowledge how you program
> a BD drive ? Some example SCSI commands would be a good start.
>
> >  You're paying for it, and you will never be
> > able to play it back on any device without their blessing, and if
> > they want to, they can take that away at any time.
>
> What i burn on my LG GGW-H20L can be read on my LG GGC-H20L
> (a combo joke), my Optiarc BD-5300S (growler joke), and my
> LG BH16NS40 (all so civilized joke).
>
> I need no blessing from "them" because i am the one who
> decides over the SCSI transaction dialog between my burn
> software and the drives.
> And i need no player software from "them" because i do not
> play. At best i read what is stored on the BD disc. This i
> do either by the Linux block device driver (e.g. read(2))
> or via SCSI transactions (which i decide how they should
> happen via ioctl(SG_IO)).
>
> No "them" involved except LKML, FSF, Debian, their friends,
> my own software, and the firmwares of the drives.
> All other "theys" can keep their prescious bit patterns and
> also may get knotted.
>
> > BD is not cost effective for everyday storage, so as far as Linux is
> > concerned, BD is really a moot point.
>
> One BD spares you four exchanges of the DVD in the drive
> when you make a large backup.
> A BD allows to make incremental backups up to 23 GiB whereas
> DVD+R DL allows only 8 GiB of poor reliablilty.
> With reliable DVD media you are restricted to 4.4 GiB.
>
> Of course, hard disks are cheaper per GB. But they have other
> needs when it comes to long term storage or rough transport.
> Further they are large and non divisible.
>
> I would commercially compare BD media to USB sticks.
> The sellers of BD-RE take care to stay cheaper than the
> sellers of 16 or 32 GiB sticks.
>
> One big problem is that the burners deteriorate with time.
> The begin to fail recording readable data. But this affects
> only new recordings. The old recorded media do not die with
> the burner that wrote them.
>
>
> I believe no BD problem is so sincere as the problem of
> USB sticks which can be programmed to emulate a keyboard.
>  
> http://www.zdnet.com/article/usb-flash-drives-masquerading-as-keyboard
>s-mean-more-byod-security-headaches/
>
> So i have few scruples to put a foreign BD into my
> drives but would not allow a foreign device to be
> plugged into my USB sockets.
>
>
> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156870

Hi,

> We should keep in mind that it was Sony Music whose published cd's 
> contained code to check the kind of drive it was being played in, and if 
> the drive had a digital output such as the usual 40 pin atapi drive 
> cable, then it was in a computer, and they bricked the drive.

Sony et.al. have a secret alliance with LG et.al. that
certain bit patterns on the medium shall render the drive
firmware unusable or the damage the drive physically ?
(Ok, Sony stands on both sides of this. But why should LG join ?)

Can you share links to reports about this incident ?


I am well willing to believe that video player software
plays such tricks on its owner.
But Blu-ray drives do not contain video player software.

That software is part or application of an operating system
running on the other side of the bus (as seen from the drive).
It can cause firmware updates of the drive by sending
proprietary SCSI commands. Just like the updater binaries
from the manufacturers do, for which you usually need to
boot MS-Windows.
But if i do not run such software, then i get no inadverted
firmware updates.

I checked for LG's habits. They seem to pop up a message
when an update is deemed necessary. The owner may then connect
to a server in order to get new player software and/or
drive firmware.
That's their self presentation at least
  http://www.lg.com/us/support/answers/blu-ray-players/updating-your-firmware

Note well, this is for video players (with operating system,
video player software, and a drive) not for the builtin
SATA attached drives themselves.


Show me credible reports with some technical information
that computer attached drives got manipulated by content of
inserted media without help of operating system and its
application software.
I.e. without Microsoft, Apple, or other software from
DRM supporters being involved.


> Nope, read what I wrote above, the firmware in the drive is the attack 
> target.

Well, the attack target named by T.J. Duchene was "WinDVD 8",
obviously a software to run on top of MS-Windows.

I am curious to learn more about the Sony-CD incident.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156876

On Thursday 27 August 2015 10:44:20 Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> I am curious to learn more about the Sony-CD incident.

I googled it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4456970.stm

So sorry, Gene, but Thomas's instincts are right in this case.  The player 
was "bricked" only in so far as the root-kit sometimes prevented access.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Sony-CD+incident&oq=Sony-CD+incident&aqs=chrome..69i57.1102j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

Lisi

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156879

Hi,

Lisi Reisz wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4456970.stm

Pity they don't tell on what operating system or
player the root kit was installed. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal
says that "Sony BMG quickly released software to remove the
rootkit component of XCP from affected Microsoft Windows computers"

Well, that's simply virus infection via MS-Windows CD autostart.

(Beware of SanDisk U3 USB sticks which appear as hub with
 USB stick and CD-ROM. The latter containing "helpful" software.
 That's one notch less evil than reprogrammed USB sticks which
 play keyboard.)


> Thomas's instincts are right in this case. 

I try hard to blind out any instinct or emotion here.

This is a sincere technical issue and i am still looking
for more info.
We all have to trust in the firmware of our computer parts.
Such stuff is in about anything that can be plugged into
the machine.

Malware cannot easily break out of an SCSI drive via
normal operation by an operating system.
But it could try to exploit bugs in the bus controller's
firmware, the operating system, or the applications.
In the latter class, such bugs might be announced as feature.

Not to speak of users who help by installing proprietary
programs which intentionally open the door for malware
updates.

Whatever, a useless 80 Euro BD burner would be as
embarrassing as it would be a waste of money.


So please bring me the rumors, the urban legends, and
the true horror stories about this topic.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156880

On Thursday 27 August 2015 12:04:52 Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4456970.stm
>
> Pity they don't tell on what operating system or
> player the root kit was installed.

"If you're using a Linux system, the Sony DRM rootkit does not get 
automatically installed"
http://www.guard-privacy-and-online-security.com/howto-detect-sony-rootkit.html#Detection

I googled again.

> So please bring me the rumors, the urban legends, and
> the true horror stories about this topic.

Google is a marvellous tool, Thomas.  Or DuckDuckGo or $SEARCH_ENGINE

Lisi

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156884

Hi,

Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > So please bring me the rumors, the urban legends, and
> > the true horror stories about this topic.

> Google is a marvellous tool, Thomas.  Or DuckDuckGo or $SEARCH_ENGINE

Any success with finding hints about Blu-ray drive hijacking ?

Panasonic promises to do like LG. Update via internet.
Sony is quite open about its process, meanwhile
  https://us.en.kb.sony.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/41705/c/65,66/
They hand out a ZIP archive with files.

In general the owners of such hardware seem to complain about
too few rather than too many updates.

But again: This is about video players, not laptop drives.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156888

On 08/27/2015 06:25 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Thursday 27 August 2015 10:44:20 Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>
>> I am curious to learn more about the Sony-CD incident.
>
> I googled it.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4456970.stm
>
> So sorry, Gene, but Thomas's instincts are right in this case.  The player
> was "bricked" only in so far as the root-kit sometimes prevented access.
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Sony-CD+incident&oq=Sony-CD+incident&aqs=chrome..69i57.1102j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
>
> Lisi
>

Thanks for the links.  Somehow I missed this story when it came out 
(back in 2005).

What this incident points up is that *any* code which cannot be 
examined-- be it in software or hardware or firmware or other possible 
-ware-- can be malware.  Heck, even FOSS, if its code sufficiently 
obscure, can contain malware.

Second, it's rather remarkable that the Sony malware/rootkit was 
discovered at all.

Third: But it was.  And there were considerable legal and business 
repercussions resulting from that, so much so that, I would think and 
hope that other corporations will in future avoid attempting anything 
like Sony did.  (Government entities, however, are a wholly different 
matter.)

To return this subthread to the original question, are there relevant 
differences between DVD and Blu-ray in this regard?  I mean, it's 
possible for either or both to have malicious code in their firmware. 
But is either *known* to?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156894

Hi,

ken wrote:
> I mean, it's possible
> for either or both to have malicious code in their firmware. But is either
> *known* to?

Well, as you can see from my posts i fiercely deny to have
such knowledge of malicious code on the level of the drive
firmware.
(I can be convinced, though, if good evidence is presented.)


> it's rather remarkable that the Sony malware/rootkit was discovered
> at all.

I don't think so. It's a clumsy boss idea to spread 20 million
copies of a root kit on non-erasable discs and to hope to
get away with it. Especially if the vice boss announces the
breach of law 5 years in advance:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal#Background
  "We will firewall it at your PC..."

The distribution method is artless and widely warned of.
I dimly remember that this feature can be disabled on
MS-Windows.
( $DOING_IT_LIKE_LISI : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoRun )


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156897

On Thursday 27 August 2015 06:25:52 Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Thursday 27 August 2015 10:44:20 Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> > I am curious to learn more about the Sony-CD incident.
>
> I googled it.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4456970.stm
>
> So sorry, Gene, but Thomas's instincts are right in this case.  The
> player was "bricked" only in so far as the root-kit sometimes
> prevented access.
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Sony-CD+incident&oq=Sony-CD+incident
>&aqs=chrome..69i57.1102j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
>
> Lisi

Sorry Lisi. If that was the case, why did so many folks have to replace 
the drive with a new one which worked just fine, and the old one did NOT 
work in any machine it was connected to?

I've got at least 3 of those given to me by neighbors running winderz.  I 
use them for a project parts warehouse.  One of the drive tray drives is 
in the process of being converted to swing a locating bar on a furniture 
carving jig in and out of the way of the cutting tools. My problem is 
getting it adequately shielded from the wood dust and chips, which would 
foul the mechanism.  But it WILL get done. I just have to make an 
appropriately sized box with only 2 tight fitting holes in it, one for 
the control cable, and one for the flexible shaft that reaches from the 
end of the table over the the jigs movable piece.  That may be another 
two weeks as my lathe burned up a drive part (darned plastic) and I need 
that working with the plastic pulley long enough to make a new jackshaft 
with a 10mm nose to carry an all metal version of the plastic part but 
using the 200% stronger XL belt.  Chicken v egg IOW.  In the meantime a 
kilobucks worth of good Mahogany will be here by the end of the month 
that I am not ready to use yet, OR have inside storage room for.  I need 
to take some of my midden heap to the landfill just to make room for the 
incoming wood.  Even my "woodshed" is full.  That needs a cleanout too.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156903

On Thursday 27 August 2015 17:26:34 Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 27 August 2015 06:25:52 Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Thursday 27 August 2015 10:44:20 Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> > > I am curious to learn more about the Sony-CD incident.
> >
> > I googled it.
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4456970.stm
> >
> > So sorry, Gene, but Thomas's instincts are right in this case.  The
> > player was "bricked" only in so far as the root-kit sometimes
> > prevented access.
> >
> > https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Sony-CD+incident&oq=Sony-CD+incident
> >&aqs=chrome..69i57.1102j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
> >
> > Lisi
>
> Sorry Lisi. If that was the case, why did so many folks have to replace
> the drive with a new one which worked just fine, and the old one did NOT
> work in any machine it was connected to?

References?  As Thomas puts it, do it like Lisi.  (As if I invented online 
references!!!)

Lisi

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156907

Hi,

Lisi Reisz wrote:
> (As if I invented online references!!!)

At least you have more luck with googling than me.


I beat this thread not because i want to win.
As said, it is about the potential hazard of too much
"user-friendliness" in the drive firmware.

If Gene has a pile of dead drives and the donors state
that they fell victim to Sony, then i must say that
this first would have to be carefully investigated.
Drives die from age and from abuse. Media can show
deceiving behavior. MS-Windows users see things their
very own way.

The idea to recycle tray motors is as weird as it is
appealing. They live longer than the optical systems
and/or the tracking servos.
But are they strong enough for any real work ?


Gene Heskett wrote:
> I just have to make an 
> appropriately sized box with only 2 tight fitting holes in it,

How about making a fan out of the spindle motor to keep
the dust out of the box by filtered pressure air ?
(I mean ... as we are already at it ... :))


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156930

On Thursday 27 August 2015 14:10:07 Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > (As if I invented online references!!!)
>
> At least you have more luck with googling than me.
>
>
> I beat this thread not because i want to win.
> As said, it is about the potential hazard of too much
> "user-friendliness" in the drive firmware.
>
> If Gene has a pile of dead drives and the donors state
> that they fell victim to Sony, then i must say that
> this first would have to be carefully investigated.
> Drives die from age and from abuse. Media can show
> deceiving behavior. MS-Windows users see things their
> very own way.
>
> The idea to recycle tray motors is as weird as it is
> appealing. They live longer than the optical systems
> and/or the tracking servos.
> But are they strong enough for any real work ?

This bit of jig it has to turn thru about a 180, is on a section of piano 
hinge, about a foot long and about 3/8" thick and 1 1/2 wide, fairly 
light bit of Mahogany scrap.  The whole thing might weigh 3 ounces if 
the piano hinge can be ignored.  And if the drive belt hasn't stretched 
in its senior years, there is a surprising amount of pull to open or 
close the tray.  The coupling cable I think can be a 6 or 7 inch length 
of speedometer cable. It will take 3 circuits (pins) of a parallel port, 
one to open it, one to close it, and one to energize an air hose to 
clear the area of old cuttings so it lays down flat with an audible slap 
each time.

And yes, better dust collection is on my bucket list.  But that will take 
more horsepower.  Horsepower that to be economical, will need a 4th 
ciruit to turn it on and off as needed as the program is running.

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I just have to make an
> > appropriately sized box with only 2 tight fitting holes in it,
>
> How about making a fan out of the spindle motor to keep
> the dust out of the box by filtered pressure air ?
> (I mean ... as we are already at it ... :))
>
>
> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156892

On Thursday 27 August 2015 05:44:20 Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > We should keep in mind that it was Sony Music whose published cd's
> > contained code to check the kind of drive it was being played in,
> > and if the drive had a digital output such as the usual 40 pin atapi
> > drive cable, then it was in a computer, and they bricked the drive.
>
> Sony et.al. have a secret alliance with LG et.al. that
> certain bit patterns on the medium shall render the drive
> firmware unusable or the damage the drive physically ?

Is there a difference to Joe & Judy Lunchbucket?  No, and they have no 
clue how to discern the difference.  All they, or I for that matter 
really knows is that the drive no longer recognizes valid media.

> (Ok, Sony stands on both sides of this. But why should LG join ?)

I believe being able to update the drive firmware in that manner it is 
part of the Orange Book specification.  Since region codes are part of 
that also, the number of such updates is often limited to 3 & the 4th 
such switch bricks it.  And since region codes are illegal in 
Austrailia, a fav trick is to update the drive to make it an aussie 
player.  Plays anything from anyplace.

> Can you share links to reports about this incident ?
>
>
> I am well willing to believe that video player software
> plays such tricks on its owner.
> But Blu-ray drives do not contain video player software.

Since when?  Not that I am a blue ray expert.  It was IMNSHO a poor 
attempt to head off the use of big hard drives as a backup medium, but 
I've found in several years of doing that, for the cost of a $100 drive, 
perhaps at 5% of the cost of blue ray media to do the same thing, which 
is doing a 20Gb backup with a 30 day lifetime every night. So blue ray 
is not presenting a more economical way to do it sales pitch to me.
They are just another technology in search of my money, and found 
wanting.

> That software is part or application of an operating system
> running on the other side of the bus (as seen from the drive).
> It can cause firmware updates of the drive by sending
> proprietary SCSI commands. Just like the updater binaries
> from the manufacturers do, for which you usually need to
> boot MS-Windows.

That depends.  I can update the firmware in my seagate drives simply by 
downloading the update, burning it to a blank cd, and pressing the reset 
button.  Its 100% self-contained.

> But if i do not run such software, then i get no inadverted
> firmware updates.
>
> I checked for LG's habits. They seem to pop up a message
> when an update is deemed necessary. The owner may then connect
> to a server in order to get new player software and/or
> drive firmware.
> That's their self presentation at least
>  
> http://www.lg.com/us/support/answers/blu-ray-players/updating-your-fir
>mware
>
> Note well, this is for video players (with operating system,
> video player software, and a drive) not for the builtin
> SATA attached drives themselves.
>
>
> Show me credible reports with some technical information
> that computer attached drives got manipulated by content of
> inserted media without help of operating system and its
> application software.
> I.e. without Microsoft, Apple, or other software from
> DRM supporters being involved.
>
> > Nope, read what I wrote above, the firmware in the drive is the
> > attack target.
>
> Well, the attack target named by T.J. Duchene was "WinDVD 8",
> obviously a software to run on top of MS-Windows.

Yes, true. But I am refering to the likes of Sony, who thought they were 
justified in bricking your cd/dvd player/recorder just to prevent 
piracy.  They didn't care how much it cost the consumer to replace that 
bricked drive.

> I am curious to learn more about the Sony-CD incident.
>
The mailing list archives contain many megabytes of such messages from 
upset people.  Use the approximately correct search terms.

> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156902

Hi,

Gene Heskett wrote:
> I believe being able to update the drive firmware in that manner it is 
> part of the Orange Book specification.

The rainbow books describe CD media and what the drives
shall be able to do with them. No command specs, no wiring
specs, no relation to drive firmware, DVD, or BD.


> Since region codes are part of that also,

Region codes do not apply to CD media.

There is a one-time copy restriction called SCMS together
with a "Digital copy permission" bit, to be given with
the SAO CUE Sheet or by the CD press mastering program.
A copier is supposed to refuse on SCMS bit 1 and copy
permission 0, and to set the SCMS bit to 1 if the copy
permission bit is 0. So a copy of a copy shall be
prevented.
Question is how the 0-setter of the copy permission bit
wants to make a legal contract with the provider of the
writer program so the SCMS bit gets set.
And copy permission = 0 with SCMS = 1 is not illegal to
read. Reading drops the copy permission bit and the SCMS bit.

So the whole idea was a boss idea. The malware was to correct
that boss idea by another one. Two times.
The last version being strictly illegal.

Then came DVD and region codes.

> a fav trick is to update the drive to make it an aussie 
> player.  Plays anything from anyplace.

This time it needs a whole continent to make them look
like stupid bosses.
Well, maybe for Blu-ray freedom we will have to wait until
mankind reaches planet Mars.


I wrote:
> > But Blu-ray drives do not contain video player software.
Gene Heskett wrote:
> Since when?  Not that I am a blue ray expert. 

>From the start. At least i know how a drive is connected
to a computer and how this cabling allows to exchange data
with the computer.
Video decoding is not the job of the drive. The drive only
has to hand out the stored data blocks from the medium.

The Blu-ray way of blocking seems to be to hand out decoder keys
only to entities which can apply a key that documents their
submission to the license rules.
This is best done in software, because each update has
the power to change the whole cryptography system, then.

No need to bother the drive which sees illegibly encrypted
data, anyway. Sonyware only has to ask the drive what region
code is set currently.


> I can update the firmware in my seagate drives simply by 
> downloading the update, burning it to a blank cd, and pressing the reset 
> button.  Its 100% self-contained.

An own little operating system booting from DVD, i assume.
MooseDT-SD1A-2D-8-16-32MB.iso i: PC-BIOS bootable from CD
by a boot image at block 21. No MBR. 1.6 MB.
The OS seems to be in the El Torito boot image, which emulates
a 1.4 MB floppy disk. Some DOS ?
  strings MooseDT-SD1A-2D-8-16-32MB.iso | grep DOS
yields lots of hits. Among them
  FreeDOS System Installer v3.2, Aug 18 2006

After
  mount -o loop,offset=$(expr 21 * 2048) MooseDT-SD1A-2D-8-16-32MB.iso /mnt/fat
one can do
  ls -l /mnt/fat
to see COMMAND.COM, AUTOEXEC.BAT, et.al.

That's really nice of Seagate. If you can forward the drive on
SCSI level to a VM, this might work even without rebooting
the host system. (If you can umount the disk, of course.)


> Sony, who thought they were 
> justified in bricking your cd/dvd player/recorder just to prevent 
> piracy.

They bricked MS-Windows and MacOS, not the drive and
not the living room CD players. It was done by installing
malware via automatic program execution on CD insertion.
A matter of OS security settings.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156917

On Thursday 27 August 2015 17:00:15 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I am curious to learn more about the Sony-CD incident.
>
> The mailing list archives contain many megabytes of such messages from
> upset people.  Use the approximately correct search terms.

Go on, Gene!  Provide some references. ;-)

Lisi

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156932

On Thursday 27 August 2015 15:42:24 Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Thursday 27 August 2015 17:00:15 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > I am curious to learn more about the Sony-CD incident.
> >
> > The mailing list archives contain many megabytes of such messages
> > from upset people.  Use the approximately correct search terms.
>
> Go on, Gene!  Provide some references. ;-)
>
> Lisi

Thats why we have wikipedia and google. I am sure both have it well 
covered.  Its a decade old and its not a secret.  Its history I have not 
forgot, or forgiven Sony for.  Fortunately my personal collection of 
Sony music cd's predates this and to my knowledge, I was never 
personally bitten.  Yes, I've had drive failures, but none recently.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156939

On Friday 28 August 2015 03:09:48 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Thursday 27 August 2015 17:00:15 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Thursday 27 August 2015 05:44:20 Thomas Schmitt (?)wrote:
> > > > I am curious to learn more about the Sony-CD incident.
> > >
> > > The mailing list archives contain many megabytes of such messages
> > > from upset people.  Use the approximately correct search terms.
> >
> > Go on, Gene!  Provide some references. ;-)
> >
> > Lisi
>
> Thats why we have wikipedia and google.

So you should have no trouble providing some references. ;-)

Lisi

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156890

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Le decadi 10 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Thomas Schmitt a écrit :
> the reason why i am insisiting in getting facts is that
> i want to know whether drive firmware can get altered
> by just inserting and reading a commercial Blu-ray disc.
> 
> I sincerely doubt that the drive firmware will do this,
> but rather believe it is about software on the level
> of operating system and application software.
> (Both of kinds which i would not touch with fire tongs.)

IIUC and IIRC, the DRM on Video Blu Ray disks work as follows. You can
probably ask for confirmation from the authors of libaacs, who are much more
likely to have reliable information than anyone on this list (including me).

The video data on a Video Blu Ray disk is encrypted using AES and a random
unique session key. (Or more probably it is a key per title or something, it
does not matter much but may be used to identify leaks.)

Then the session key is encrypted using all the keys currently recognized by
the Video Blu Ray cartel.

Publishers of video players, either as computer applications or embedded in
dedicated hardware, have to buy keys from the cartel. With these keys, the
players can decode and play Blu Ray discs, but they have contractual
obligation to refuse anything that would allow duplicating them.

If a key becomes compromised, the cartel revokes it simply by stopping using
it for new discs. Therefore, new discs can no longer be decoded with that
key. Older discs are already leaked anyway.

(I suspect the purpose of this system is not to really prevent copy than to
delay it, in fact.)

The publisher that used that key can buy another one from the cartel,
possibly after proving that they have increased the obfuscation of their
software (using the word security in this case would be absurd) tu prevent
further leaks.

Happy owners of players that used that key can possibly download an update
from the publisher with new keys. If the publisher has gone out of business,
or simply got bored with that model and wants to push for new buys, no
updates will be available, and the aforementioned happy owners will soon
become unhappy owners of a useless lump of metal and plastic, they will
probably realize that if the industry really wanted people to respect
copyright they would make it more comfortable and easy than not, and
eventually install a BitTorrent client.

I believe that is all there is in general.

Of course, it does not exclude isolated initiatives by overzealous
publishers. The Sony rootkit was mentioned, but it was on CDs, not Blu Rays.
There were the DVD drives by Matsushita, usually found on laptops, that did
refuse to return the encrypted contents if the region did not match. I do
not know of any specific case for Blu Rays.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156895

Hi,

Nicolas George wrote:
> There were the DVD drives by Matsushita, usually found on laptops, that did
> refuse to return the encrypted contents if the region did not match.

This sounds plausible, although i would heavily complain
towards the seller if i ever found out. There is few chance
i would step into this puddle when recording and reading
own data.

Any good keywords to search for ?
All tries bring me to Macbook drives where it is hard to
distinguish between hardware and software. Of course if Apple
orders a shipload of drives with custom firmware add-ons,
then Matsushita will probably produce them.

There are whole online communities which have chosen
DVD cheating as their favorite sport. Something about:
"Matshita Flasher", a software without visible authorship,
and "RPC-1 good, RPC-2 bad".

Summary for now:
Apple-way-of-life. Not automatically updated unless possibly
if you run Apple's OS. DVD rather than BD.
Malware ? No. Unfriendly ? Yes. Legal ? I fear.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | linux.debian.user

csiph-web