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XFCE and Fuse

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  XFCE and Fuse George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-12-30 21:40 +0100
    Re: XFCE and Fuse Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2024-12-30 22:40 +0100
      Re: XFCE and Fuse George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-12-31 03:50 +0100
        Re: XFCE and Fuse Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2024-12-31 15:10 +0100
          Re: XFCE and Fuse Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2024-12-31 16:20 +0100
    Re: XFCE and Fuse David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-12-31 02:20 +0100
      Re: XFCE and Fuse George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-12-31 04:20 +0100
        Re: XFCE and Fuse David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-12-31 05:10 +0100
          Re: XFCE and Fuse George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-12-31 06:20 +0100
    Re: XFCE and Fuse "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2024-12-31 22:20 +0100
      Re: XFCE and Fuse David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2025-01-02 05:30 +0100
        Re: XFCE and Fuse George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2025-01-02 06:00 +0100

#276201 — XFCE and Fuse

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Hi,


Is anyone familiar with using Thunar to access Windows shares or Samba
shares? I have found that after installing Debian Bookworm with XFCE,
that Thunar is 1) not able to display Windows shares or Samba shares,
2) not able to connect to connect to Windows shares or Samba shares.


Does someone know how get Thunar to display and access Windows shares
or Samba shares?


In Debian Bookworm installations, why is gvfs-backends and gvfs-fuse
not installed by default when installing Debian with XFCE? 



https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDesktopHowTo
Xfce

For network browsing in the thunar file manager, install gvfs-backends
and gvfs-fuse, and add your users to the "fuse" group (sudo adduser 
fuse).
Thunar is missing a plugin to create network shares (bug 672539).
Workaround: define custom actions (adjust the permissions (setguid)
according to the samba section above).


What is the issue of not having these two packages installed?


The most obvious issue I observe is that Thunar is 1) not able to
display Windows shares or Samba shares, 2) not able to connect to
connect to Windows shares or Samba shares.


I can do install gvfs-backends and gvfs-fuse.
# apt install gvfs-backends gvfs-fuse


But when try to add my userid to the fuse group, I discover that the
fuse group does not exist, why is this?  I have read on the Internet
that with Bookworm there is no need to add the userid to the fuse
group, but the instructions on the DesktopHowTo, does recommend this
step.

# adduser  fuse
adduser: The group `fuse' does not exist.


I think I found the "fuse" package was not installed. Should I install
the fuse package?
# apt install fuse3


Even after installing the fuse package, there is no group in
/etc/group called "fuse".
# grep fuse /etc/group


I then created the fuse group and added my userid to the fuse group.
Is this correct?  Is doing this a problem? Does creating the fuse
group and adding the userid to the group actually help?

# groupadd fuse
# adduser  fuse


I read the statement "Thunar is missing a plugin to create network
shares". And checking the bug report it seems this bug was reported in
"Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 21:12:03 UTC". Will this bug be fixed? 
resolved? There is a comment "If you are still interested in packaging
thunar-shares-plugin, please..." from 2015.


I could not find a package called thunar-shares-plugin in Synaptic, so
I guess this plug in, if it still exists, was never packaged?


With the popularity of XFCE, I would have expected that "network
browsing in the thunar file manager" would be fully supported by
default by now. Is there a reason it is not?  My guess is there must
be some policy related reason.




George.

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#276203

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 07:34:20 +1100
George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> 
> Is anyone familiar with using Thunar to access Windows shares or Samba
> shares? I have found that after installing Debian Bookworm with XFCE,
> that Thunar is 1) not able to display Windows shares or Samba shares,
> 2) not able to connect to connect to Windows shares or Samba shares.
> 

Is it vital for you?
> 
> Does someone know how get Thunar to display and access Windows shares
> or Samba shares?

I've never tried, but Thunar is generally not as polished or capable as
Nautilus. It is still under development, still gaining capabilities. I
can remember when it didn't have 'extract here' for zip archives, not
that long ago.

But I mount shares on local directories with /etc/fstab, where of course
Thunar has no difficulty in accessing them. They need to be mounted
noauto or boot will hang if they go missing, and are automounted on
first access. I access shares from various applications, so it makes
sense to mount them, I don't need to try browsing for shares in
unfamiliar networks. I'd probably use Nautilus or Konqueror for
something like that.

A quick Google does suggest difficulties with Thunar, but then SMB
shares are always difficult, especially where Windows is involved. Much
sacrificing of chickens needed. These days I have no shares on
Windows, but it's hard enough getting Windows to deal properly with
Samba shares.

-- 
Joe

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#276205

Joe,

Thanks for your reply which provides me with more information.

What do you know about Nemo?  I noticed it is installed. When running Nemo, it seems quite similar to Thunar.

I installed Nautilus. When I go to "Other Locations" in Nautilus, I do not see any listed Windows/Samba shares. When I attempt to access "Windows Network", I get the message "Failed to retrieve share list from server..." message so I am guessing there is still something missing in my Debian XFCE installation that would allow Nautilus to discover Windows/Samba shares.  

Thank you for your comment on mapping shares via fstab as I had wondered if mounting shares with noauto would be possible. 

Our main file share is SAMBA, which has worked well over the past years with Windows 7 and Windows 10, and also Debian Linux.

For XFCE, I always install gvfs-backends and gvfs-fuse, then in Thunar I use "smb://[ip address of Share]/[sharename] and bookmark this connection. This process works well for me, but it would be nice if Thunar was able do discover shares as I believe Thunar could discover shares if whatever required supporting packages were installed. Since Nemo is also not able to discover shares in my XFCE computer, I assume other supporting packages need to be installed for this feature to work. But what would they be?

I have a test Fedora Gnome and a LDME Cinnamon computers and while both behave differently, both find our file shares. I was not able to see any difference in file share related packages between the LDME computer and my Debian XFCE, though I expect I am missing something as even Nautilus on my XFCE is not able to discover the file  shares. Of course Nautilus, Nemo, and Thunar work if I explicitly connect to these shares.

George.



On Tuesday, 31-12-2024 at 08:39 Joe wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 07:34:20 +1100
> George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > 
> > Is anyone familiar with using Thunar to access Windows shares or Samba
> > shares? I have found that after installing Debian Bookworm with XFCE,
> > that Thunar is 1) not able to display Windows shares or Samba shares,
> > 2) not able to connect to connect to Windows shares or Samba shares.
> > 
> 
> Is it vital for you?
> > 
> > Does someone know how get Thunar to display and access Windows shares
> > or Samba shares?
> 
> I've never tried, but Thunar is generally not as polished or capable as
> Nautilus. It is still under development, still gaining capabilities. I
> can remember when it didn't have 'extract here' for zip archives, not
> that long ago.
> 
> But I mount shares on local directories with /etc/fstab, where of course
> Thunar has no difficulty in accessing them. They need to be mounted
> noauto or boot will hang if they go missing, and are automounted on
> first access. I access shares from various applications, so it makes
> sense to mount them, I don't need to try browsing for shares in
> unfamiliar networks. I'd probably use Nautilus or Konqueror for
> something like that.
> 
> A quick Google does suggest difficulties with Thunar, but then SMB
> shares are always difficult, especially where Windows is involved. Much
> sacrificing of chickens needed. These days I have no shares on
> Windows, but it's hard enough getting Windows to deal properly with
> Samba shares.
> 
> -- 
> Joe
> 
> 

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#276223

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 13:47:50 +1100
George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> wrote:

> Joe,
> 
> Thanks for your reply which provides me with more information.
> 
> What do you know about Nemo?  I noticed it is installed. When running
> Nemo, it seems quite similar to Thunar.

I've heard of it, I've never used it, and it isn't installed here. My
usual workstation is unstable, installed as bookworm. There are
Cinnamon users here, so presumably they know about it.
> 
> I installed Nautilus. When I go to "Other Locations" in Nautilus, I
> do not see any listed Windows/Samba shares. When I attempt to access
> "Windows Network", I get the message "Failed to retrieve share list
> from server..." message so I am guessing there is still something
> missing in my Debian XFCE installation that would allow Nautilus to
> discover Windows/Samba shares.  

Don't know. Nautilus here (called 'Files' now for anyone confused) can
see shares on my Raspberry Pi running the RasPi version of bookworm,
but not the shares on an older NAS.
> 
> Thank you for your comment on mapping shares via fstab as I had
> wondered if mounting shares with noauto would be possible. 

My fstab lines are like this:

//piserve2/Documents  /mnt/piserve2/Documents  cifs
 noauto,x-systemd.automount,user,guest,noperm,uid=65534,gid=65534,dir_mode=0777,file_mode=0777,rw

I notice that the server that Nautilus can't see has the extra parameter
vers=1.0, so it has an older operating system that can't use the
current SMB version. Presumably Nautilus can't, either.
> 
> Our main file share is SAMBA, which has worked well over the past
> years with Windows 7 and Windows 10, and also Debian Linux.
> 
> For XFCE, I always install gvfs-backends and gvfs-fuse, then in
> Thunar I use "smb://[ip address of Share]/[sharename] and bookmark
> this connection. This process works well for me, but it would be nice
> if Thunar was able do discover shares as I believe Thunar could
> discover shares if whatever required supporting packages were
> installed. Since Nemo is also not able to discover shares in my XFCE
> computer, I assume other supporting packages need to be installed for
> this feature to work. But what would they be?
> 
> I have a test Fedora Gnome and a LDME Cinnamon computers and while
> both behave differently, both find our file shares. I was not able to
> see any difference in file share related packages between the LDME
> computer and my Debian XFCE, though I expect I am missing something
> as even Nautilus on my XFCE is not able to discover the file  shares.
> Of course Nautilus, Nemo, and Thunar work if I explicitly connect to
> these shares.

Browsing is a bit of a black art even among Windows versions, as they
squabble over who gets to be the Master Browser and who must download
their browse lists from it. It was basically developed from the
primitive DOS networking before Windows 95 and carries baggage...

-- 
Joe

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#276225

On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 14:05:39 +0000
Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

P.S. Having checked Nautilus, I now see that Thunar has a Browse
Network icon that I swear it doesn't usually have, and it can see the
Pi, but nothing else.

-- 
Joe

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#276204

On Tue 31 Dec 2024 at 07:34:20 (+1100), George at Clug wrote:

> In Debian Bookworm installations, why is gvfs-backends and gvfs-fuse
> not installed by default when installing Debian with XFCE? 

Because gvfs will function without those backends, so it would
be against policy to depend on those packages. OTOH gvfs-daemons
appears to be a dependency, and includes a minimal set of backends.

> For network browsing in the thunar file manager, install gvfs-backends
> and gvfs-fuse, and add your users to the "fuse" group (sudo adduser 
> fuse).

> What is the issue of not having these two packages installed?

The package descriptions tell you:

 "This package contains the afc, afp, archive, cdda, dav, dnssd, ftp,
  gphoto2, http, mtp, network, sftp, smb and smb-browse backends."

and

 "This package contains the gvfs-fuse server that exports gvfs mounts
  to all applications using FUSE."

> But when try to add my userid to the fuse group, I discover that the
> fuse group does not exist, why is this?

Because there's no need for it as /dev/fuse has been read/writeable
since jessie; and no one has updated the wiki.

> I think I found the "fuse" package was not installed. Should I install
> the fuse package?
> # apt install fuse3

I don't understand: fuse and fuse3 aren't the same package. I see that
gvfs-fuse depends on fuse3, so I assume fuse won't work.

> I then created the fuse group and added my userid to the fuse group.
> Is this correct?  Is doing this a problem? Does creating the fuse
> group and adding the userid to the group actually help?
> 
> # groupadd fuse
> # adduser  fuse

I don't think there's any harm in your creating random groups
for fun :)

> With the popularity of XFCE, I would have expected that "network
> browsing in the thunar file manager" would be fully supported by
> default by now. Is there a reason it is not?  My guess is there must
> be some policy related reason.

No idea. Maybe the answer is at https://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=157776
and maybe not. I don't use gvfs, so most of the information above
comes from reading the package files.

Cheers,
David.

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#276206

David,

Thanks for your reply.

On Tuesday, 31-12-2024 at 12:12 David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 31 Dec 2024 at 07:34:20 (+1100), George at Clug wrote:
> 
> > In Debian Bookworm installations, why is gvfs-backends and gvfs-fuse
> > not installed by default when installing Debian with XFCE? 
> 
> Because gvfs will function without those backends, so it would
> be against policy to depend on those packages. OTOH gvfs-daemons
> appears to be a dependency, and includes a minimal set of backends.
> 
> > For network browsing in the thunar file manager, install gvfs-backends
> > and gvfs-fuse, and add your users to the "fuse" group (sudo adduser 
> > fuse).
> 
> > What is the issue of not having these two packages installed?
> 
> The package descriptions tell you:
> 
>  "This package contains the afc, afp, archive, cdda, dav, dnssd, ftp,
>   gphoto2, http, mtp, network, sftp, smb and smb-browse backends."
> 
> and
> 
>  "This package contains the gvfs-fuse server that exports gvfs mounts
>   to all applications using FUSE."
> 
> > But when try to add my userid to the fuse group, I discover that the
> > fuse group does not exist, why is this?
> 
> Because there's no need for it as /dev/fuse has been read/writeable
> since jessie; and no one has updated the wiki.
> 
> > I think I found the "fuse" package was not installed. Should I install
> > the fuse package?
> > # apt install fuse3
> 
> I don't understand: fuse and fuse3 aren't the same package. I see that
> gvfs-fuse depends on fuse3, so I assume fuse won't work.

I did notice that when I installed gvfs-fuse that gvfs-fuse3 was removed. Hence I assumed that gvfs-fuse3 is a later version of gvfs-fuse. gvfs-fuse3 package does not exist in my LDME, nor in Debian Bookworm Gnome, so I am confused. 

> 
> > I then created the fuse group and added my userid to the fuse group.
> > Is this correct?  Is doing this a problem? Does creating the fuse
> > group and adding the userid to the group actually help?
> > 
> > # groupadd fuse
> > # adduser  fuse
> 
> I don't think there's any harm in your creating random groups
> for fun :)

Thanks for this info, in future I will not bother creating the group and adding my userid to it. 

> 
> > With the popularity of XFCE, I would have expected that "network
> > browsing in the thunar file manager" would be fully supported by
> > default by now. Is there a reason it is not?  My guess is there must
> > be some policy related reason.
> 
> No idea. Maybe the answer is at https://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=157776
> and maybe not. I don't use gvfs, so most of the information above
> comes from reading the package files.

Well it will remain a mystery to me until one day finding file shares just works, lol. 

> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> 
> 

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#276209

On Tue 31 Dec 2024 at 14:10:16 (+1100), George at Clug wrote:
> On Tuesday, 31-12-2024 at 12:12 David Wright wrote:
> > On Tue 31 Dec 2024 at 07:34:20 (+1100), George at Clug wrote:

> > > I think I found the "fuse" package was not installed. Should I install
> > > the fuse package?
> > > # apt install fuse3
> > 
> > I don't understand: fuse and fuse3 aren't the same package. I see that
> > gvfs-fuse depends on fuse3, so I assume fuse won't work.
> 
> I did notice that when I installed gvfs-fuse that gvfs-fuse3 was removed. Hence I assumed that gvfs-fuse3 is a later version of gvfs-fuse. gvfs-fuse3 package does not exist in my LDME, nor in Debian Bookworm Gnome, so I am confused. 

I am too: I can't find any google hits for gvfs-fuse3, and neither
https://packages.debian.org/ nor https://tracker.debian.org/
can find it. The only mention is:

  AI Overview
  Learn more

  GVfs-fuse3 is a package that provides limited access to GVfs
  filesystems for applications that don't use GIO: 

  GVfs-fuse3

  What it does
  Exports GVfs mounts to applications that use FUSE

  Part of
  GVfs, a userspace virtual filesystem

  Dependencies
  Includes fuse3

  GVfs is a userspace virtual filesystem that uses D-Bus to
  communicate with mounts that run as separate processes.
  It has a set of backends that support trash, SFTP, SMB, HTTP,
  DAV, and more. GVfs also has modules for GIO that implement
  volume monitors and persistent metadata storage. 

but that could be AI just parroting.

Cheers,
David.

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#276211

On Tuesday, 31-12-2024 at 14:59 David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 31 Dec 2024 at 14:10:16 (+1100), George at Clug wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 31-12-2024 at 12:12 David Wright wrote:
> > > On Tue 31 Dec 2024 at 07:34:20 (+1100), George at Clug wrote:
> 
> > > > I think I found the "fuse" package was not installed. Should I install
> > > > the fuse package?
> > > > # apt install fuse3
> > > 
> > > I don't understand: fuse and fuse3 aren't the same package. I see that
> > > gvfs-fuse depends on fuse3, so I assume fuse won't work.
> > 
> > I did notice that when I installed gvfs-fuse that gvfs-fuse3 was removed. Hence I assumed that gvfs-fuse3 is a later version of gvfs-fuse. gvfs-fuse3 package does not exist in my LDME.
> 
> I am too: I can't find any google hits for gvfs-fuse3, and neither

That is because I was the one who was confused.

It was not gvfs but was actually fuse and fuse3 for which I was mentioning.

fuse - Filesystem in Userspace (FUSE) is a simple interface for userspace programs to
export a virtual filesystem to the Linux kernel. It also aims to provide a
secure method for non privileged users to create and mount their own filesystem
implementations.

fuse3 - Filesystem in Userspace (3.x version) 
Filesystem in Userspace (FUSE) is a simple interface for userspace programs to
export a virtual filesystem to the Linux kernel. It also aims to provide a
secure method for non privileged users to create and mount their own filesystem
implementations.

And fuse3 is installed in Debian Gnome.

George

> https://packages.debian.org/ nor https://tracker.debian.org/
> can find it. The only mention is:
> 
>   AI Overview
>   Learn more
> 
>   GVfs-fuse3 is a package that provides limited access to GVfs
>   filesystems for applications that don't use GIO: 
> 
>   GVfs-fuse3
> 
>   What it does
>   Exports GVfs mounts to applications that use FUSE
> 
>   Part of
>   GVfs, a userspace virtual filesystem
> 
>   Dependencies
>   Includes fuse3
> 
>   GVfs is a userspace virtual filesystem that uses D-Bus to
>   communicate with mounts that run as separate processes.
>   It has a set of backends that support trash, SFTP, SMB, HTTP,
>   DAV, and more. GVfs also has modules for GIO that implement
>   volume monitors and persistent metadata storage. 
> 
> but that could be AI just parroting.
> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> 
> 

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#276237

On Monday 30 December 2024 03:34:20 pm George at Clug wrote:
> With the popularity of XFCE, I would have expected that "network
> browsing in the thunar file manager" would be fully supported by
> default by now.

No windows here at all,  so I have no use for "windows shares" nor do I see any need for Samba and "samba shares" (is there a differene?).  I do have network shares,  originating on my file server,  and specified in /etc/fstab.  Works with thunar or any other file manager...

-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

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#276279

On Tue 31 Dec 2024 at 16:20:21 (-0500), Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Monday 30 December 2024 03:34:20 pm George at Clug wrote:
> > With the popularity of XFCE, I would have expected that "network
> > browsing in the thunar file manager" would be fully supported by
> > default by now.

I understood that paragraph to be complaining about the lack of
backends and fuse for browsing, but I suppose it could include the
missing shares-plugin as well.

> No windows here at all,  so I have no use for "windows shares" nor do I see any need for Samba and "samba shares" (is there a differene?).  I do have network shares,  originating on my file server,  and specified in /etc/fstab.  Works with thunar or any other file manager...

However, I don't think that's the OP's issue, because if you've
involved /etc/fstab then you must have root access. The plugin
is meant to allow users to share their folders _without_ needing
root access.

Cheers,
David.

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#276280

On Thursday, 02-01-2025 at 15:22 David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 31 Dec 2024 at 16:20:21 (-0500), Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> > On Monday 30 December 2024 03:34:20 pm George at Clug wrote:
> > > With the popularity of XFCE, I would have expected that "network
> > > browsing in the thunar file manager" would be fully supported by
> > > default by now.
> 
> I understood that paragraph to be complaining about the lack of
> backends and fuse for browsing, but I suppose it could include the
> missing shares-plugin as well.

Thanks for replying.

What I would like to see, is an average (non IT admin) install Debian XFCE and for the installation to provide usual features provided by an operating system.
Within the realms of FOSS, thinks like play videos, look at pictures, email client, web browers, manage files, access Windows style shares/NAS devices, read (but not necessarily write) NTFS USB storage, for a short list.

Default installation of Gnome, KDE, Cinnamon, Mate can all connect to a Windows style share (e.g. NAS), so what not XFCE, if all is required is to have gvfs-backends and gvfs-fuse installed?

Some users might like to share a folder on their PC to allow others on the LAN access the foders, however I do not care myself, as I don't recall anyone I know who did this (in Windows or Linux).  But this my bias, I would be curious to know how many do use this feature, as I have not seen anyone do this (other than myself for testing purposes).

> 
> > No windows here at all,  so I have no use for "windows shares" nor do I see any need for Samba and "samba shares" (is there a differene?).  I do have network shares,  originating on my file server,  and specified in /etc/fstab.  Works with thunar or any other file manager...

I never replied back to this original statement, though I was very curious what technology had been used for the "shares,  originating on my file server" if SMB was not being used?

NFS is the only other technology I am familiar with, but to my knowledge such shares are not easily access from Windows users.

But alternative sharing technology was what my original question was about , but my original concern was "can XFCE, by default installation, be enabled to access SMB (i.e. Windows) shares".

Thanks, George.
 
> 
> However, I don't think that's the OP's issue, because if you've
> involved /etc/fstab then you must have root access. The plugin
> is meant to allow users to share their folders _without_ needing
> root access.
> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> 
> 

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