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upgrade debian + postfix/dovecot

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  upgrade debian + postfix/dovecot Thomas Anderson <thomas.anderson@little-beak.com> - 2024-12-26 19:50 +0100
    Re: upgrade debian + postfix/dovecot Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-12-26 20:20 +0100
      Re: upgrade debian + postfix/dovecot Thomas Anderson <thomas.anderson@little-beak.com> - 2024-12-26 20:50 +0100
        Re: upgrade debian + postfix/dovecot Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-12-27 03:10 +0100
    Re: upgrade debian + postfix/dovecot John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-12-26 21:00 +0100
      Re: upgrade debian + postfix/dovecot Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> - 2024-12-27 12:10 +0100

#276026 — upgrade debian + postfix/dovecot

Hello Debian-users,

I have been delayed with upgrading my debian distro, and want to upgrade 
to 12. According to the documentation, I should remove all non-debian 
applications first, before upgrading. Almost all the applications I use 
are non-debian (postfix, dovecot, apache, mysql, etc..), so it almost 
makes it seem like I should just do a full new install??

I have been running a mail server, webserver, cloud (nextcloud), etc... 
for the past decade, updating as time went along. However, for personal 
reasons, I have let this slide longer than I would like to admit, so now 
it's time to "get it done."

I was planning on backing up everything (via Clonezilla) so I would have 
a "reliable backup," but that only half helps, because I would still be 
back where I started from. Here...

I have done upgrades in the past, 8->9, 9->10, etc..and with a little 
pain was just able to upgrade the system without removing previous 
versions, and tweak some files that didn't work anymore.

Thinking out loud, I guess best bet would be to backup the systems most 
important to me (outside of clonezilla), and just re-apply the 
configuration files after a re-install of the required software systems?

So, now I guess my question becomes...ultimately:

"What is the difference between upgrading my system (after remove all 
non-debian apps) and simply doing a brand new, clean install??"

"Is one better than the other??

Thanks, and Happy Holidays.

Thomas Anderson

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#276027

Hi,

On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 07:39:23PM +0100, Thomas Anderson wrote:
> I have been delayed with upgrading my debian distro, and want to upgrade to
> 12. According to the documentation, I should remove all non-debian
> applications first, before upgrading. Almost all the applications I use are
> non-debian (postfix, dovecot, apache, mysql, etc..), so it almost makes it
> seem like I should just do a full new install??

The advice to "remove all non-Debian applications first" means to remove
things installed from non-Debian package repositories. It seems unlikely
that you have installed postfix, dovecot, apache, mysql, etc. from
outside of Debian, i.e. from third party repositories. If you have
installed them from the main Debian archive then that's fine.

> Thinking out loud, I guess best bet would be to backup the systems most
> important to me (outside of clonezilla), and just re-apply the configuration
> files after a re-install of the required software systems?

Do you really need to remove any software? Most people don't need to.

> "What is the difference between upgrading my system (after remove all
> non-debian apps) and simply doing a brand new, clean install??"
> 
> "Is one better than the other??

If you have good backups of your configuration and user data and a good
understanding of what will change with the new versions of all your apps
then a reinstall can often make for a shorter downtime than an in-place
upgrade. Taken to the extreme, one can automate a reinstall a bit easier
than one can automate an upgrade, and have it done in a matter of
minutes.

The hardest part of any upgrade is when the new versions of the packages
are configured in different ways. You can go into it blind either with a
reinstall or an upgrade and who knows how long it will take for you to
work out what has changed, how it changed and how to make it work again.

Sometimes when the changes are extensive (like a whole restructuring of
config layout for example) then trying to change in place what you had
before to what is now required can be rather confusing, while looking
what the new default is and adjusting that to be how you want may be
easier.

It is still largely a matter of taste and I expect you will get replies
saying they have never reinstalled since Debian 0.90 and never had a
problem.

I upgrade in place a lot, sometimes even when I know it will probably
be faster/simpler to reinstall.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#276029

Thanks Andy!

I did get them from Debian sources, so I should be good.

Per your advice, I will go through and read about changes, and see what 
I need to be mindful of. Of course, I will backup everything first. =)

Thanks for clarifying the part about remove "non-debian source" 
software, which I don't think I have anything (of value), that doesn't 
come directly from Debian source repos =)

I like to keep things simple. I guess get started with the backup =)

Cheers.

On 26/12/2024 20:11, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 07:39:23PM +0100, Thomas Anderson wrote:
>> I have been delayed with upgrading my debian distro, and want to upgrade to
>> 12. According to the documentation, I should remove all non-debian
>> applications first, before upgrading. Almost all the applications I use are
>> non-debian (postfix, dovecot, apache, mysql, etc..), so it almost makes it
>> seem like I should just do a full new install??
> The advice to "remove all non-Debian applications first" means to remove
> things installed from non-Debian package repositories. It seems unlikely
> that you have installed postfix, dovecot, apache, mysql, etc. from
> outside of Debian, i.e. from third party repositories. If you have
> installed them from the main Debian archive then that's fine.
>
>> Thinking out loud, I guess best bet would be to backup the systems most
>> important to me (outside of clonezilla), and just re-apply the configuration
>> files after a re-install of the required software systems?
> Do you really need to remove any software? Most people don't need to.
>
>> "What is the difference between upgrading my system (after remove all
>> non-debian apps) and simply doing a brand new, clean install??"
>>
>> "Is one better than the other??
> If you have good backups of your configuration and user data and a good
> understanding of what will change with the new versions of all your apps
> then a reinstall can often make for a shorter downtime than an in-place
> upgrade. Taken to the extreme, one can automate a reinstall a bit easier
> than one can automate an upgrade, and have it done in a matter of
> minutes.
>
> The hardest part of any upgrade is when the new versions of the packages
> are configured in different ways. You can go into it blind either with a
> reinstall or an upgrade and who knows how long it will take for you to
> work out what has changed, how it changed and how to make it work again.
>
> Sometimes when the changes are extensive (like a whole restructuring of
> config layout for example) then trying to change in place what you had
> before to what is now required can be rather confusing, while looking
> what the new default is and adjusting that to be how you want may be
> easier.
>
> It is still largely a matter of taste and I expect you will get replies
> saying they have never reinstalled since Debian 0.90 and never had a
> problem.
>
> I upgrade in place a lot, sometimes even when I know it will probably
> be faster/simpler to reinstall.
>
> Thanks,
> Andy
>

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#276035

On 27/12/2024 02:41, Thomas Anderson wrote:
> 
> I did get them from Debian sources, so I should be good.

<https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html>
"Chapter 4. Upgrades from Debian 11 (bullseye)"
from "Release Notes for Debian 12 (bookworm)"

suggests

     apt list '?narrow(?installed, ?not(?origin(Debian)))'

to be sure. In addition you may review for 3rd party repositories output of

     apt policy

You may try to replicate your setup in a VM and to upgrade it at first.

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#276030

Thomas Anderson writes:
> Almost all the applications I use are non-debian (postfix, dovecot,
> apache, mysql, etc..)

Why?  All of those are in Debian. If you were using the Debian packages
upgrading would be easy.
-- 
John Hasler 
john@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#276038

On Thu, 2024-12-26 at 13:52 -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> Thomas Anderson writes:
> > Almost all the applications I use are non-debian (postfix, dovecot,
> > apache, mysql, etc..)
> 
> Why?  All of those are in Debian. If you were using the Debian packages
> upgrading would be easy.

To nitpick, I don't think Debian ships mysql anymore (it's mariadb
instead). It might be somewhat common to install the actual mysql from
Oracle's APT repository.

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