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Groups > linux.debian.user > #266903 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Lee <ler762@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2024-02-03 02:30 +0100 |
| Last post | 2024-02-06 05:30 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 97 — 36 participants |
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what keyboard do you use? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 02:30 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Gremlin <scott-andrews@columbus.rr.com> - 2024-02-03 02:50 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Timothy M Butterworth <timothy.m.butterworth@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 04:00 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2024-02-03 03:00 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2024-02-03 03:10 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-02-03 08:40 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 15:40 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-04 11:30 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-02-04 17:30 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2024-02-04 18:40 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-04 19:00 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2024-02-04 19:10 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-04 19:30 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 12:40 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? "Loris Bennett" <loris.bennett@fu-berlin.de> - 2024-02-05 15:50 +0100
How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 21:10 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?) Ralph Aichinger <ra@h5.or.at> - 2024-02-05 21:40 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-05 21:40 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 23:50 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?) debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-02-06 12:30 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 15:10 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-05 22:10 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 00:20 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-06 05:30 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-02-06 05:50 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-02-06 06:30 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 06:40 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-02-06 15:20 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 11:30 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-07 04:50 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-07 07:00 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-02-07 13:20 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-02-07 14:40 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-13 08:20 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-21 20:00 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-21 23:20 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-26 04:30 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-06 10:20 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 11:40 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 11:50 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-02-06 04:20 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?) Brian Sammon <debian-users-list@brisammon.fastmail.fm> - 2024-02-06 07:40 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?) debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-02-06 13:10 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 14:00 +0100
solved: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 16:00 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? "Loris Bennett" <loris.bennett@fu-berlin.de> - 2024-02-06 11:20 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2024-02-06 12:00 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 12:50 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Ralph Aichinger <ra@h5.or.at> - 2024-02-06 13:30 +0100
Of German keycap translations [was: How can we change the keyboard layout?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 13:40 +0100
Re: Of German keycap translations [was: How can we change the keyboard layout?] hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 14:50 +0100
Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 14:40 +0100
[OT] (I guess) Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Michael Lange <klappnase@t-online.de> - 2024-02-07 00:00 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-02-06 05:20 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 12:10 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-02-06 13:20 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2024-02-05 18:10 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 12:30 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-05 15:10 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 21:50 +0100
On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 06:40 +0100
Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?] hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 15:00 +0100
Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 15:10 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-06 15:10 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-04 18:40 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 12:10 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-05 15:10 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 20:40 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-06 15:10 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2024-02-03 05:00 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Ralph Aichinger <ra@h5.or.at> - 2024-02-03 05:00 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 16:00 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-02-03 05:50 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-03 06:20 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 07:00 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-03 13:30 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-02-03 13:40 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Jörg-Volker Peetz <jvpeetz@web.de> - 2024-02-03 15:50 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-02-03 06:50 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2024-02-05 17:50 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-02-03 08:40 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-03 15:50 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2024-02-03 14:50 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 15:20 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? "Russell L. Harris" <russell@rlharris.org> - 2024-02-03 17:20 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Roger Price <debian@rogerprice.org> - 2024-02-03 18:40 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-04 12:20 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@debian-user.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2024-02-04 22:30 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Henrik Morsing <henrik@morsing.cc> - 2024-02-05 12:40 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-02-05 13:30 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Peter Ehlert <pb21a@sdi-baja.com> - 2024-02-05 16:20 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Ash Joubert <ash@transient.nz> - 2024-02-06 00:20 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Peter Ehlert <pb21a@sdi-baja.com> - 2024-02-06 01:50 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2024-02-05 17:50 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 22:30 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2024-02-05 23:30 +0100
Re: what keyboard do you use? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-06 05:30 +0100
Page 2 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 5 Next page →
| From | hw <hw@adminart.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-06 15:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?) |
| Message-ID | <I4uj7-8iGu-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267053 |
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 11:28 +0000, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote: > hw <hw@adminart.net> wrote: > > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > > [...] > > > "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in > > > four major ways: > > > > It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute. > > If you reread the wikipedia page, you'll see that umlaut keys are > mentioned as the second of the four ways. Strange, it's also in the part you quoted. I don't understand how I missed that, sorry.
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| From | Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-05 22:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4eo1-88CQ-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #266998 |
On 5 Feb 2024 21:06 +0100, from hw@adminart.net (hw): > Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an > entirely obsolete feature. I never need that. I only need to be able > to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer. > > In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so > many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for > the console in the first place. How that is done changes like all the > time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right, > especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't > work[1]. So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be > able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an > US keyboard. But I only have one of those. Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just about forever. I haven't dug into the details but it seems to date back to 2006 which would put its first appearance at circa Sarge or Etch (3.1/mid-2005 or 4.0/early-2007 respectively); possibly even earlier, but that's as far back as the console-setup package history goes. The one on my Bookworm system even has a comment right there on how to use an entirely custom keymap, and that's also mentioned in the keyboard(5) man page. -- Michael Kjörling 🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
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| From | hw <hw@adminart.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-06 00:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4gpP-89UC-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267002 |
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 20:59 +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote: > On 5 Feb 2024 21:06 +0100, from hw@adminart.net (hw): > > [...] > > --- and then I need to be able to change the keyboard layout in > > wayland sessions unless I use an US keyboard. But I only have one > > of those. > > Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just > about forever. I haven't dug into the details but it seems to date > back to 2006 which would put its first appearance at circa Sarge or > Etch (3.1/mid-2005 or 4.0/early-2007 respectively); possibly even > earlier, but that's as far back as the console-setup package history > goes. Yeah it was an issue back then, and how do you know that there's such a thing as /etc/default/keyboard and what it means. Try to get a German Model M keyboard to work right with Xorg in, for example, 2010. It starts with the question 'How many keys does it have?' and soon the question is 'How do I turn CapsLock into Ctrl?' and 'How do I put that into xorg.conf?' --- which eventually was omitted, so you had to bring that back, and that even in snippets, to get it to work. Ugh ... Even fvwm kinda never got it right because stuff would change in some ideosyncratic, unexpected way depending on if NumLock was on or off. So don't you dare to turn that off --- and for almost 30 years we had to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session and if we were to switch to a console, we had to turn it on again and then do something because it was screwed up after switching back (or the other way round). How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a good way to change the keyboard layouts! > The one on my Bookworm system even has a comment right there on how to > use an entirely custom keymap, and that's also mentioned in the > keyboard(5) man page. "In Debian systems the default keyboard layout is described in /etc/default/keyboard and it is shared between X and the console." Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out. So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland?
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-06 05:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4lfP-8cQn-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267012 |
On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 00:11:43 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 20:59 +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote: > > On 5 Feb 2024 21:06 +0100, from hw@adminart.net (hw): > > > [...] > > > --- and then I need to be able to change the keyboard layout in > > > wayland sessions unless I use an US keyboard. But I only have one > > > of those. > > > > Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just > > about forever. I haven't dug into the details but it seems to date > > back to 2006 which would put its first appearance at circa Sarge or > > Etch (3.1/mid-2005 or 4.0/early-2007 respectively); possibly even > > earlier, but that's as far back as the console-setup package history > > goes. > > Yeah it was an issue back then, and how do you know that there's such > a thing as /etc/default/keyboard and what it means. man keyboard perhaps? (First paragraph in Description.) > Try to get a > German Model M keyboard to work right with Xorg in, for example, 2010. > > It starts with the question 'How many keys does it have?' and soon the > question is 'How do I turn CapsLock into Ctrl?' and 'How do I put that > into xorg.conf?' --- which eventually was omitted, so you had to bring > that back, and that even in snippets, to get it to work. Ugh ... Would you get more help on the German list, as one might expect people there to be using German layouts more frequently? caps:ctrl_modifier Caps Lock is also a Ctrl xorg.conf is only omitted because by default it is empty. I drop a small file into xorg.conf.d just because the side buttons on one of my mice are a nuisance. But I don't resent not having to specify all those Screens, Monitors and Devices that used to be necessary. > Even fvwm kinda never got it right because stuff would change in some > ideosyncratic, unexpected way depending on if NumLock was on or off. > So don't you dare to turn that off --- and for almost 30 years we had > to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session and > if we were to switch to a console, we had to turn it on again and then > do something because it was screwed up after switching back (or the > other way round). As I have NumLock turned off, and never turn it on, I haven't had occasion to use IgnoreModifiers in fvwm, but IgnoreModifiers 2 is meant to ignore that modifier. > How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It > still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a > good way to change the keyboard layouts! I presume you're now talking about wayland, though I don't think it's been around for 30 years. > > The one on my Bookworm system even has a comment right there on how to > > use an entirely custom keymap, and that's also mentioned in the > > keyboard(5) man page. > > "In Debian systems the default keyboard layout is described in > /etc/default/keyboard and it is shared between X and the > console." > > Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out. > > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland? I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out. Cheers, David.
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| From | Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-06 05:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4lzb-8cWE-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267024 |
> > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland? > > I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out. At this point, I believe there are folks who *believe* that Wayland is the future, and that everyone should switch to it sooner rather than later. I also believe that there are people who are happily using it. Most people who use it probably don't even know they're using it. What I *know*, however, is that there are some people who are never going to switch until (a) the decision is taken away from them, by X no longer working, or (b) a fully equivalent Wayland environment can be created to take the place of their existing X environment. I'm not aware of any projects aimed at recreating mature, traditional working environments in Wayland. Maybe they exist and I'm simply not aware of them. Maybe nobody who's capable of developing such an environment has the motivation to do so.
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| From | Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-06 06:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4mbT-8dvk-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267026 |
> I'm not aware of any projects aimed at recreating mature, traditional
> working environments in Wayland. Maybe they exist and I'm simply not
> aware of them. Maybe nobody who's capable of developing such an
> environment has the motivation to do so.
I'm afraid X11 users should make an effort to try and use Wayland for
the sole purpose of finding the problems they'd encounter and file
feature requests (e.g. for better customizability of the keyboard).
AFAICT many such requests are discarded as being too marginal, but
that might be just because all those who need it keep avoiding Wayland.
Stefan
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-06 06:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4mlz-8dyW-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267027 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 12:24:32AM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > I'm not aware of any projects aimed at recreating mature, traditional > > working environments in Wayland. Maybe they exist and I'm simply not > > aware of them. Maybe nobody who's capable of developing such an > > environment has the motivation to do so. > > I'm afraid X11 users should make an effort to try and use Wayland for > the sole purpose of finding the problems they'd encounter and file > feature requests (e.g. for better customizability of the keyboard). > > AFAICT many such requests are discarded as being too marginal, but > that might be just because all those who need it keep avoiding Wayland. I lost that optimism long time ago. If I felt a genuine interest, I'd put up with all the inconveniences involved, but I just don't. I had my share of discussions back then (before Wayland) in the context of GNOME and I don't need that again. But do keep your optimism: that's what makes the world better. Cheers -- t
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| From | Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-06 15:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4usN-8iJw-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267028 |
> I had my share of discussions back then (before Wayland) in the
> context of GNOME and I don't need that again.
Discussions are tiresome, yes. Knowing it won't go well, it's important
to keep them short.
> But do keep your optimism: that's what makes the world better.
I'm not very optimistic. But I suspect that a thousand similar bug
reports are harder to discard as marginal than one or two.
Stefan
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| From | hw <hw@adminart.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-06 11:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4qSd-8gmC-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267024 |
On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 22:25 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 00:11:43 (+0100), hw wrote: > [...] > > How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It > > still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a > > good way to change the keyboard layouts! > > I presume you're now talking about wayland, though I don't think it's > been around for 30 years. I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead. Keyboards are around for more than 30 years, and they have always been troublesome. I'm finding it amazing that there were no features added over time, like the ability to actually have more keys and every keyboard giving information about itself to the computer. If displays were like keyboards, we'd still be trying to figure out modelines manually. We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at all now. > > [...] > > Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out. > > > > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland? > > I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out. It is. Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is like 4 months away). And it makes perfect sense to omit it. I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian users haven't noticed yet. Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good alternative for servers.
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-07 04:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4H6F-8r4b-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267046 |
On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 11:28:11 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 22:25 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 00:11:43 (+0100), hw wrote: > > [...] > > > How can it be so difficult to get basic things like that right? It > > > still sucks because after more then 30 years, we still don't have a > > > good way to change the keyboard layouts! > > > > I presume you're now talking about wayland, though I don't think it's > > been around for 30 years. > > I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead. If that concerned you unduly, you could have put that in the Subject line. It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. > Keyboards are around for more than 30 years, and they have always been > troublesome. I'm finding it amazing that there were no features added > over time, like the ability to actually have more keys and every > keyboard giving information about itself to the computer. If displays > were like keyboards, we'd still be trying to figure out modelines > manually. My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102 to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are shifting ones (win and fn). > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at > all now. I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland. > > > Xorg doesn't seem to be maintained anymore and is on the way out. > > > > > > So how do you change the keyboard layout when using wayland? > > > > I've no idea. I don't seem to have noticed that X is on the way out. > > It is. Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora > seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is > like 4 months away). And it makes perfect sense to omit it. I haven't seen a reference for this. I have seen references that say something quite different. > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian > users haven't noticed yet. > > Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing > even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant > to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good > alternative for servers. I can't make heads or tails of this. I don't know whether you have some unique problems with running Debian: you certainly seem to have an awful lot of them. Cheers, David.
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| From | hw <hw@adminart.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-07 07:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4J8t-8slq-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267096 |
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 21:43 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 06 Feb 2024 at 11:28:11 (+0100), hw wrote: > > [...] > > I'm talking about wayland all the time; you brought Xorg up instead. > > If that concerned you unduly, you could have put that in the Subject > line. It doesn't concern me. > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and never about switching between different keyboards or between different layouts. That only came up much later when such a feature was added to some so-called desktop environments, and it's a very short sighted feature since it omits a way of changing they keyboard layouts, which is a far more important feature. > > [...] > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? > In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102 > to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are > shifting ones (win and fn). 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending key combinations instead? > > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of > > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at > > all now. > > I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland. No, it's about keyboards and computers. Can you show me a keyboard that you can plug in and have working with the correct keyboard layout so that every key does what it is supposed to do without any configuration required? I haven't seen one yet. You still need to pick a keyboard in a Debian or Fedora installer because it can't figure out for what language the keyboard is, how many keys it has and whatever else may be necessary. When you log into a GUI like gnome, you still need to pick the keyboard layout in case you connected a different keyboard after the installation. I can connect a German keyboard instead of the currently connected US one and neither the console nor gnome would adjust to that. That one keyboard identifies itself as 'foo' and the other one as 'bar' doesn't make a difference. I could connect both at the same time. What do you think what happens when I press the same key on either, like the = key for example? I haven't tried it yet but I'm sure that pressing = on the German keyboard will give some other character instead of =. How can that be? Do you see in the gnome settings multiple keyboards displayed when you connect multiple keyboards at the same time so you can at least pick a layout for each one manually? > > [...] > > It is. Apparently nobody wants to maintain it anymore, and Fedora > > seems to have plans to omit it entirely for next release (which is > > like 4 months away). And it makes perfect sense to omit it. > > I haven't seen a reference for this. I have seen references > that say something quite different. About Xorg being no longer maintained or about Fedora dropping it? What are those references? I've only found that apparently one person wanted to see some features in Xorg and decided to work on it after it was declared abandoned and that it is still on the way out. It seems it's only a matter of time. > > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian > > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics > > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian > > users haven't noticed yet. > > > > Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing > > even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant > > to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good > > alternative for servers. > > I can't make heads or tails of this. I don't know whether you have > some unique problems with running Debian: you certainly seem to have > an awful lot of them. I've described my experience and I can't help it when you can't understand what I'm saying and draw conclusions out of what you don't understand.
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| From | Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-07 13:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4P4d-8w6C-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267097 |
On Wed, Feb 07, 2024 at 06:58:39AM +0100, hw wrote: > On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 21:43 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, > > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. > > It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the > keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and > never about switching between different keyboards or between different > layouts. No, I can assure you, it is ambiguous. To "change the keyboard layout" could mean either to select a different layout, or to modify an existing layout. In fact, I think *most* people would assume the former. Compare to "change clothing". If a parent says they want you to go upstairs and change your shirt, they *most likely* mean they want you to select a different shirt. They would be quite surprised if you altered your shirt with a knife and some magic markers.
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| From | John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-07 14:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4QjD-8wLZ-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267109 |
Greg writes: > To "change the keyboard layout" could mean either to select a > different layout, or to modify an existing layout. In fact, I think > *most* people would assume the former. I think the possibility of *altering* the keyboard layout would not even occur to most users. -- John Hasler john@sugarbit.com Elmwood, WI USA
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| From | hw <hw@adminart.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-13 08:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I6Vfb-9Pnf-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267097 |
On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > > [...] > > > It's also obvious that "change the keyboard layout" is ambiguous, > > > and you didn't intend to mean switching between two layouts. > > > > It's not at all obvious, and it's not really ambiguous. Changing the > > keyboard layout has always been about changing the keybaord layout and > > never about switching between different keyboards or between different > > layouts. That only came up much later when such a feature was added > > to some so-called desktop environments, and it's a very short sighted > > feature since it omits a way of changing they keyboard layouts, which > > is a far more important feature. > > It seems quite important when you're used to typing in more than > one language, and want your layout to match what you're used to. Sure it is, and when you do that, it's even more important to be able to change the layout because you have to do it for all the languages you're used to typing in --- and for all the keyboards you're using. I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between keyboards. I don't know if that's possible, but I expect it to be possible since USB makes it easily possible to have multiple keyboards connected at the same time. So like in gnome settings, all the connected keyboards need to show up so that I can pick a layout for each and then change their layouts as I need them. If that doesn't work it's a bug. Actually, I just tried it and it doesn't work :( The German keyboard gets an US layout just like the US keyboard; it doesn't show up in gnome settings, and there is no way to select a keyboard and to pick a layout for it. That really sucks --- I can only assume that developers don't want to have to do anything with keyboard layouts, which might explain why it has always been a nightmare to get a keyboard to work right and still is. > > > > [...] > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with > > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? > > PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer. Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from? Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it. > > > In 26 years, the number of keys has increased considerably, from 102 > > > to 107, plus six audiovisual buttons. Two of the extra keys are > > > shifting ones (win and fn). > > > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard > > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending > > key combinations instead? > > That would be difficult: That's what I've been saying :) Years ago I read an article about keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work: Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do nothing. Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that could use all the keys while PC hardware can not. About 20 years ago I've seen a machine with terminals running some HP Unix that had keyboards like that. They were networked through token ring coax cables and had been used to run some CAD software which had been replaced with, IIRC, autocad, but there were still files people sometimes needed to retrieve from them, via NFS IIRC. They were nice keyboards and had connectors that wouldn't fit any PC. > I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have > one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones, > and how does xev identify them? I don't know if there are duplicate keys. I didn't try out all the key to find any, and I haven't noticed any. When I press F18, for example, wev says: ,---- | [11: wl_data_device] selection: id: 4278190081 | [13: wl_pointer] motion: time: 665008611; x, y: 617.781250, 467.316406 | [13: wl_pointer] frame | [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270273; time: 665012185; key: 50; state: 1 (pressed) | sym: Shift_L (65505), utf8: '' | [14: wl_keyboard] modifiers: serial: 270274; group: 0 | depressed: 00000001: Shift | latched: 00000000 | locked: 00000010: Mod2 | [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270275; time: 665012185; key: 72; state: 1 (pressed) | sym: F6 (65475), utf8: '' | [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270276; time: 665012313; key: 50; state: 0 (released) | sym: Shift_L (65505), utf8: '' | [14: wl_keyboard] modifiers: serial: 270277; group: 0 | depressed: 00000000 | latched: 00000000 | locked: 00000010: Mod2 | [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270278; time: 665012313; key: 72; state: 0 (released) | sym: F6 (65475), utf8: '' `---- For the backtab key it says: ,---- | [14: wl_keyboard] modifiers: serial: 270525; group: 0 | depressed: 00000004: Control | latched: 00000000 | locked: 00000010: Mod2 | [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270526; time: 665107706; key: 72; state: 1 (pressed) | sym: F6 (65475), utf8: '' | [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270527; time: 665107834; key: 37; state: 0 (released) | sym: Control_L (65507), utf8: '' | [14: wl_keyboard] modifiers: serial: 270528; group: 0 | depressed: 00000000 | latched: 00000000 | locked: 00000010: Mod2 | [14: wl_keyboard] key: serial: 270529; time: 665107834; key: 72; state: 0 (released) | sym: F6 (65475), utf8: '' `---- These keys don't exist on PCs, so the keyboards converts them. IIRC, Unicomp used to have a version that was suited for terminals like IBM made them, i. e. with all 122 keys working and not converted. > The keyboards I have access to all send usable keycodes, even where > the engravings are the same, eg, Return/36 and KP_Enter/104 are both > engraved with "Enter", KP_Subtract/82 and minus/20 are both engraved > with "-". I get usable keycodes, too. It looks pretty much like this, only the symbols on the two keys in the bottom row on the very left look nicer on mine: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/911QQZnUFrL.jpg > The only key on this K520 that doesn't send a keycode on its own is > the gold FN key, which behaves more like a laptop's Fn key, sending > "control functions" like Sleep; plus a battery charge indicator. I guess that's useful for laptops --- and one example of how it's great to have more keys. Why is there still no 'Hibernate' key on every keyboard? That's not only useful laptops ... I could use like F20 for it if I could configure that, but unfortunately, my workstation doesn't really hibernate, so I haven't tried. > > > > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of > > > > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at > > > > all now. > > > > > > I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland. > > > > No, it's about keyboards and computers. > > Well excuse me. You did say earlier that you were talking about > wayland all the time. Now, without indication, you're talking about > all keyboards and computers. How are we meant to keep up? By reading, applying your intelligence and by understanding? I was particularly interested in changing the keyboard layout for wayland because that was an unsolved problem. That doesn't mean that the things I pointed out are specific to wayland. Perhaps that's not obvious when you're always using an US keyboard and never feel a need to change the layout. Like I said before, all the developers must be Americans which may explain how keyboard configuration is still such a big problem. Just see the example above with multiple keyboards connected at the same time. If my desk were larger, it would make sense for me to have both a German and an US keyboard connected at the same time, each with their own layout. So how the hell would you do that with Gnome? How user friendly is this --- wayland or not. Why doesn't my computer just detect the keyboards automatically and automatically picks a suitable layout for each by default which I can then change? We have 2024 now, not 1984 ... It's silly that we can pick a keyboard layout for every freaking window, but we can have only one keyboard (which isn't even detected automatically)! That doesn't make any sense. > As for figuring out keyboards, I would say that Xorg does a pretty > flexible job. There are plenty of preselected options available in > /usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/base.lst, and I guess you can override > all you like with /etc/X11/xkb/ to get whatever you like. Not that > I've needed to do so, as the options provided work here AFAICT. Well, where's my nice GUI thingy that would let me change the keyboard layout? Why do I have to configure the keyboard for the console extra, and why is not even the state of the NumLock key consistent between Xorg/Wayland and console? That's sooo annoying when you type a number and something else happens instead just because that suddenly changed. How do you disable NumLock completely? I mean that function, not even the key. I want it to be always on unless I change that myself. No, it doesn't do a good job at all --- maybe a flexible one, but not a good one. > > Can you show me a keyboard > > that you can plug in and have working with the correct keyboard layout > > so that every key does what it is supposed to do without any > > configuration required? > > No, not without /any/ configuration. I'm guessing that you mean an > EDID-like PROM that completely describes the layout of every key. > I don't know that keyboard manufacturers have ever looked at > something like that, at least for detached keyboards. see > But even then, it's likely that some configuration would be necessary > as people exercise their own preferences over at least such things as > CapsLock's behaviour and placement. If such advances led to an > inability to tweak the layout, I'd see that as a backward step. Yes, of course we need to be able to change the keyboard layout after the keyboard was detected and configured correctly. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be detected and configured correctly at all. Do you have any idea how 'nice' it is when you have to make BIOS settings or the like with a German keyboard and you need to enter characters like - or = or |? I don't have much of a problem with that because I know where they are on the US keyboard I'm using all the time (but I still need to experiment). But most people don't. Most people speak Chinese or Spanish ... So why aren't their keyboards configured correctly to begin with once plugged in? How backwards is that. For passwords it's outright dumb. You can't see what you're typing and you have no way of knowing what keyboard layout is in use. > I don't use Gnome. I have /e/d/keyboard set up so that I can switch > layouts, but I actually set them automatically in .xsession,¹ in > the same way as I configure mice buttons and motions, trackpad > tapping/scrolling behaviour, and so on. Each device is configured > individually. Each keyboard, too? > When I type Shift-3 on the IBM, it types £; on the Internet Pro it > types #, just as indicated on their keycaps. Similarly with ¬ and ~ > on the key to the left of 1, when shifted. The extra key that GB > keyboards have, \|, is left of Z, and the position of one other key > is moved, allowing for a tall Return key instead of a wide one. Is that because you configured it so, or does it happen without extra configuration? The key left of Z is usually T. See what I mean? On my keyboard the keycap is, strangely, blank, and it types < or > --- and with Ctrl, it does nothing, but with Alt, in Emacs runs beginning-of-buffer (M-<). For me, that's an extra key I could use for something else since < and > are on , and .. I guess I could swap the keycap from another keyboard in. > > [...] > > About Xorg being no longer maintained or about Fedora dropping it? > > What are those references? > > > > I've only found that apparently one person wanted to see some features > > in Xorg and decided to work on it after it was declared abandoned and > > that it is still on the way out. It seems it's only a matter of time. > > You were asking me to refute something that Fedora is alleged to have > said, without actually showing anywhere that they said it. You can use a search engine as well as I can. For example: https://blog.nicco.love/gnome-is-gradually-dropping-x11/ https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/395 > And you backup your claim with a suggestion that there's only one > person who doesn't want it abandoned? Please show a reference to > where they say they're planning to abandon it. That's not what I said. https://www.theregister.com/2020/10/30/x_server_lead_maintainer_declares/ Someone picked it up later and I'm too lazy to find that page again. Thomas Adams also said on the fvwm mailing list that he wants to help keeping Xorg alive because he wants to keep fvwm alive. > > > > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian > > > > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics > > > > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian > > > > users haven't noticed yet. > > > > > > > > Already 20 years ago Debian was so outdated that I had to run testing > > > > even on servers, and that's one of the reasons why I'm very reluctant > > > > to use it for servers now. Unfortunately, that leaves no good > > > > alternative for servers. > > > > > > I can't make heads or tails of this. I don't know whether you have > > > some unique problems with running Debian: you certainly seem to have > > > an awful lot of them. > > > > I've described my experience and I can't help it when you can't > > understand what I'm saying and draw conclusions out of what you don't > > understand. > > Those paragraphs didn't describe your experience: the first just > insulted Debian users; There's no insult here. It's a matter of fact. You can dig through the mails on this list for the issue if you want. I asked here how I could get the card to work and there were suggestions like using special kernels from testing or something like that, and I decided to install Fedora instead because I didn't want to deal with Debian problems that existed then and may have continued to exist. Check the packages in Debian and the versions of the software they contain and verify them to the current versions of the software, and the changes between the versions, if you want a complete picture. Sometimes it's advantageous to have old software, like asterisk which, unfortunately, dropped xmpp support quite a while ago and Debian (11, I think) still has it. Sometimes it is a disadvantage, and my experience is that it's generally more a disadvantage. I don't see why or how facts would insult anyone. > the second had no facts, just opinions. Experience is not opinion. > And your reply is just one of those insults that you occasionally > toss out here. Those really belong on social media, if anywhere, > and certainly not on a technical mailing list. I'm not insulting anyone. If I did insult someone, I'd have reason to, and that someone would probably know. Of course you may feel insulted by facts and/or experience, but don't blame me for it. Besides, there is no such thing as 'social media'; what you're referring to is commercial media, and I don't have anything to do with that.
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-21 20:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I9ZYZ-bGU1-17@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267346 |
On Tue 13 Feb 2024 at 08:09:40 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > [...] > I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between > keyboards. Do it if you like. That's what I have on my computer in the basement: a GB-layout M keyboard and a US-layout Microsoft Pro. In my case, the layout difference is incidental: the M sits on the table, the other sits on a shelf, for standing use. (There are two screens, set to mirroring.) > > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > > > > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with > > > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? > > > > PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer. > > Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from? > Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved > the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it. I get it from xinput, which I assume gets it from udev, as the ID's description string occurs in /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb. > > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard > > > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending > > > key combinations instead? > > > > That would be difficult: I think some etiquette might be appropriate. You shouldn't quote half a sentence just to change the meaning to suit yourself. I wrote: "That would be difficult: I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys?" That difficulty has nothing to do with the one you wrote about here: > That's what I've been saying :) Years ago I read an article about > keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many > keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work: > Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do > nothing. Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that > could use all the keys while PC hardware can not. I've not heard of that. The keyboard files in the kernel source and in udev seem to have far more keys available than 122. > > I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have > > one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones, > > and how does xev identify them? > > I don't know if there are duplicate keys. I didn't try out all the > key to find any, and I haven't noticed any. It can't take that long to press 122 keys in turn, can it. > When I press F18, for example, wev says: [ … lengthy output snipped … ] Does wl signify wayland output? I can't decode it. However, you appear to have your NumLock on, which could change things considerably. > For the backtab key it says: Looking at 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I don't know which key that is. But again, NumLock appears to be on. > These keys don't exist on PCs, so the keyboards converts them. IIRC, > Unicomp used to have a version that was suited for terminals like IBM > made them, i. e. with all 122 keys working and not converted. That's odd—911QQZnUFrL.jpg shows function keys as high as F24. Why would it not be able to send a keycode for F18? > > The keyboards I have access to all send usable keycodes, even where > > the engravings are the same, eg, Return/36 and KP_Enter/104 are both > > engraved with "Enter", KP_Subtract/82 and minus/20 are both engraved > > with "-". > > I get usable keycodes, too. It looks pretty much like this, only the > symbols on the two keys in the bottom row on the very left look nicer > on mine: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/911QQZnUFrL.jpg But without shifts, locks, and key redefinitions, do all your keys produce unique keycodes? (Whether the last point is possible might depend on how wayland inserts itself into the process.) Also note that when keys have been redefined, you can't see what keycodes they would originally have produced. > > The only key on this K520 that doesn't send a keycode on its own is > > the gold FN key, which behaves more like a laptop's Fn key, sending > > "control functions" like Sleep; plus a battery charge indicator. > > I guess that's useful for laptops --- and one example of how it's > great to have more keys. Why is there still no 'Hibernate' key on > every keyboard? That's not only useful laptops ... I could use like > F20 for it if I could configure that, but unfortunately, my > workstation doesn't really hibernate, so I haven't tried. This AiO desktop computer, with a wireless keyboard, obeys FN-F11 (engraved ⏻ with PC underneath) happily, and promptly falls asleep. > > > > > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of > > > > > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at > > > > > all now. > > > > > > > > I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland. > > > > > > No, it's about keyboards and computers. > > > > Well excuse me. You did say earlier that you were talking about > > wayland all the time. Now, without indication, you're talking about > > all keyboards and computers. How are we meant to keep up? > > By reading, applying your intelligence and by understanding? Because my intelligence and understanding enable me to configure my keyboards as I want them, I can't understand why you wrote the first three lines in that block quoted above. It doesn't match my experience. > I was particularly interested in changing the keyboard layout for > wayland because that was an unsolved problem. That doesn't mean that > the things I pointed out are specific to wayland. Perhaps that's not > obvious when you're always using an US keyboard and never feel a need > to change the layout. Like I said before, all the developers must be > Americans which may explain how keyboard configuration is still such a > big problem. So now we're back to wayland. I'm afraid I don't use wayland, and know next to nothing about it. But I don't always use a US keyboard: I use two or three GB keyboards too. > Just see the example above with multiple keyboards connected at the > same time. If my desk were larger, it would make sense for me to have > both a German and an US keyboard connected at the same time, each with > their own layout. So how the hell would you do that with Gnome? No idea: I've never used gnome. > How do you disable NumLock completely? I mean that function, not even > the key. I want it to be always on unless I change that myself. I guess you'd just use xmodmap to define the scancode to do nothing. > For passwords it's outright dumb. You can't see what you're typing > and you have no way of knowing what keyboard layout is in use. Perhaps check your layout by typing characters at the login prompt, then rub them all out, and continue with your login. > > I don't use Gnome. I have /e/d/keyboard set up so that I can switch > > layouts, but I actually set them automatically in .xsession,¹ in > > the same way as I configure mice buttons and motions, trackpad > > tapping/scrolling behaviour, and so on. Each device is configured > > individually. > > Each keyboard, too? Yes, that way my keyboards will work correctly wherever they're plugged, as I have a mixture US- and GB-origin laptops and keyboards. > > When I type Shift-3 on the IBM, it types £; on the Internet Pro it > > types #, just as indicated on their keycaps. Similarly with ¬ and ~ > > on the key to the left of 1, when shifted. The extra key that GB > > keyboards have, \|, is left of Z, and the position of one other key > > is moved, allowing for a tall Return key instead of a wide one. > > Is that because you configured it so, or does it happen without extra > configuration? It's in the script that was mentioned in the footnote, where the Id for the keyboard etc comes from the aforementioned xinput command, which lists all the devices connected. > The key left of Z is usually T. See what I mean? Not really, no. But now you've revealed your keyboard looks like 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I can tell you that the extra GB key is the one that's unengraved, and it's still left of Z, as I wrote. > On my keyboard the keycap is, strangely, blank, and it types < or > I remember using a keyboard that had such a key, but I can't recall which: it was decades ago. But what was most unusual about that keyboard was the comma and fullstop keys were the same when shifted. (More conventional would have been ; and :, as in some continental layouts.) It was great for typing reference lists in scientific papers. > > You were asking me to refute something that Fedora is alleged to have > > said, without actually showing anywhere that they said it. > > You can use a search engine as well as I can. For example: Why should I search for you? > https://blog.nicco.love/gnome-is-gradually-dropping-x11/ I'm not really concerned with Gnome—I'm not a DE-user. > https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/395 I don't see any timeframe mapped out there, and don't see how it supports your view. > > > > > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian > > > > > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics > > > > > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian > > > > > users haven't noticed yet. > I don't see why or how facts would insult anyone. "So badly" is not a fact, and neither is "Debian users haven't noticed yet" > Experience is not opinion. /Your/ experience is what forms your opinions, which you now call "facts". Others may have had different experiences and hold different opinions. I certainly do. > I'm not insulting anyone. If I did insult someone, I'd have reason > to, and that someone would probably know. > > Of course you may feel insulted by facts and/or experience, but don't > blame me for it. > > Besides, there is no such thing as 'social media'; what you're > referring to is commercial media, and I don't have anything to do with > that. I think the first two paragraphs support my view. As for the third: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media Cheers, David.
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| From | hw <hw@adminart.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-21 23:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <Ia36x-bIVF-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267664 |
On Wed, 2024-02-21 at 12:55 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 13 Feb 2024 at 08:09:40 (+0100), hw wrote: > > On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > > [...] > > I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between > > keyboards. > > Do it if you like. That's what I have on my computer in the basement: > a GB-layout M keyboard and a US-layout Microsoft Pro. And is their layout identical? If isn't, do all the keys on both keyboards what you expect them to do? > In my case, the layout difference is incidental: the M sits on the > table, the other sits on a shelf, for standing use. (There are two > screens, set to mirroring.) > > > > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > > > > > > > I can see USB keyboards identifying themselves, but keyboards with > > > > PS/2 or DIN connectors? How does your keyboard from 1988 connect? > > > > > > PS/2. IIRC it came with a genuine IBM PS/2 computer. > > > > Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from? > > Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved > > the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it. > > I get it from xinput, which I assume gets it from udev, as the ID's > description string occurs in /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb. Does that mean it doesn't come form the keyboard itself? > > > > 10% more keys isn't considerably more. Can you show me a keyboard > > > > with 122 keys that has all keys usable and unique rather than sending > > > > key combinations instead? > > > > > > That would be difficult: > > I think some etiquette might be appropriate. You shouldn't quote half > a sentence just to change the meaning to suit yourself. I wrote: I have no intention of doing something like that. > "That would be difficult: I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or > even seen one. You have one. In terms of xev output, are there > duplicate keys?" > > That difficulty has nothing to do with the one you wrote about here: > > > That's what I've been saying :) Years ago I read an article about > > keyboards and it said that due to hardware restrictions, only so many > > keys can be handled so that keyboards with 122 keys don't really work: > > Either the controller in the keyboard key combinations, or the keys do > > nothing. Apparently such keyboards seem to come from terminals that > > could use all the keys while PC hardware can not. > > I've not heard of that. The keyboard files in the kernel source and in > udev seem to have far more keys available than 122. Perhaps what I have been reading wasn't true, or things have changed and it is now possible to have more keys. It was sufficiently long ago for things to have been changed. But then, how many manufacturers nowadays make keyboards with 122 keys like these terminal keyboards for PCs? The only one I know of is Unicomp, and they have adjusted the keyboard controller to deliver substitutes for keys PCs don't know (or usually don't have) in order to make the keyobard usable for PCs. Why would the kernel developers make provisions for keyboards that don't exist (for PCs)? > > > I've never had a 122 key keyboard, or even seen one. You have > > > one. In terms of xev output, are there duplicate keys? Which ones, > > > and how does xev identify them? > > > > I don't know if there are duplicate keys. I didn't try out all the > > key to find any, and I haven't noticed any. > > It can't take that long to press 122 keys in turn, can it. > > > When I press F18, for example, wev says: [ … lengthy output snipped … ] > > Does wl signify wayland output? I can't decode it. However, you appear > to have your NumLock on, which could change things considerably. You mean wev? What are trying to decode? I usually NumLock enabled; if it's ever turned off, it's usually only by accidident. > > For the backtab key it says: > > Looking at 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I don't know which key that is. But again, > NumLock appears to be on. It's the key to the left to the Delete key which is below the key labeled Dup/Insert. > > These keys don't exist on PCs, so the keyboards converts them. IIRC, > > Unicomp used to have a version that was suited for terminals like IBM > > made them, i. e. with all 122 keys working and not converted. > > That's odd—911QQZnUFrL.jpg shows function keys as high as F24. > Why would it not be able to send a keycode for F18? It's because PCs have no more than 12 function keys. Maybe they can have more nowadays, but where do you find a keyboard for PCs that has more than 12 "true" function keys? > > > The keyboards I have access to all send usable keycodes, even where > > > the engravings are the same, eg, Return/36 and KP_Enter/104 are both > > > engraved with "Enter", KP_Subtract/82 and minus/20 are both engraved > > > with "-". > > > > I get usable keycodes, too. It looks pretty much like this, only the > > symbols on the two keys in the bottom row on the very left look nicer > > on mine: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/911QQZnUFrL.jpg > > But without shifts, locks, and key redefinitions, do all your keys > produce unique keycodes? (Whether the last point is possible might > depend on how wayland inserts itself into the process.) Also note that > when keys have been redefined, you can't see what keycodes they would > originally have produced. I don't know if all keys produce unique keycodes. Wayland plays a role that pressing the Ctrl key works correctly in a Gnome session while it does not in an X11 session. With KDE, I think it works both with Wayland and X11, but KDE with Wayland is still too unstable to use. (I'm currently using KDE after I was pissed by the file manager in Gnome which has become too much dumbed down to be usable, and there's no good replacement. So I thought I'd give KDE a try and found that it now works much faster than it did when I tried it last time, especially with Wayland. I only switched to Gnome because KDE was so buggy and didn't work with Wayland at all back then.) > > > The only key on this K520 that doesn't send a keycode on its own is > > > the gold FN key, which behaves more like a laptop's Fn key, sending > > > "control functions" like Sleep; plus a battery charge indicator. > > > > I guess that's useful for laptops --- and one example of how it's > > great to have more keys. Why is there still no 'Hibernate' key on > > every keyboard? That's not only useful laptops ... I could use like > > F20 for it if I could configure that, but unfortunately, my > > workstation doesn't really hibernate, so I haven't tried. > > This AiO desktop computer, with a wireless keyboard, obeys FN-F11 > (engraved ⏻ with PC underneath) happily, and promptly falls asleep. Such a Fn key is for laptops; I don't want one on a normal keyboard. And I was talking about actual keys we should have more of, not yet another way (or layer) to modify what the existing keys do. If you remember the ZX Spectrum, you may also remember how it was infamous for having all kinds of things on every key, and some modifier keys to summon all the stuff that was on the keys. People didn't like it back then and probably wouldn't like now even less. > > > > > > We're still trying to figure out keyboards manually. Instead of > > > > > > improvements, we now have come so far that we even can't do that at > > > > > > all now. > > > > > > > > > > I'm guessing that criticism is specific to wayland. > > > > > > > > No, it's about keyboards and computers. > > > > > > Well excuse me. You did say earlier that you were talking about > > > wayland all the time. Now, without indication, you're talking about > > > all keyboards and computers. How are we meant to keep up? > > > > By reading, applying your intelligence and by understanding? > > Because my intelligence and understanding enable me to configure > my keyboards as I want them, I can't understand why you wrote the > first three lines in that block quoted above. It doesn't match > my experience. So you figured out how to change the keyboard layout with Wayland. > > I was particularly interested in changing the keyboard layout for > > wayland because that was an unsolved problem. That doesn't mean that > > the things I pointed out are specific to wayland. Perhaps that's not > > obvious when you're always using an US keyboard and never feel a need > > to change the layout. Like I said before, all the developers must be > > Americans which may explain how keyboard configuration is still such a > > big problem. > > So now we're back to wayland. I'm afraid I don't use wayland, and know > next to nothing about it. So you can't really configure your keyboards once you use wayland. > But I don't always use a US keyboard: I use two or three GB keyboards too. Well, a German keyboard is quite different from those. > > Just see the example above with multiple keyboards connected at the > > same time. If my desk were larger, it would make sense for me to have > > both a German and an US keyboard connected at the same time, each with > > their own layout. So how the hell would you do that with Gnome? > > No idea: I've never used gnome. Well, what would you do if you had two different keyboards connected at the same time, one US or GB one, and a German one? Or you could have three, US, GB and DE. With Gnome or KDE, I'd expect to be able to configure each keyboard differently through the settings of Gnome or KDE. But Gnome doesn't allow me to do that. I haven't tried it with KDE. And without Gnome and KDE? How do you configure them? > > How do you disable NumLock completely? I mean that function, not even > > the key. I want it to be always on unless I change that myself. > > I guess you'd just use xmodmap to define the scancode to do nothing. There's no xmodmap with Wayland. I'm not sure if you can do it with xmodmap. I doubt you can. > > For passwords it's outright dumb. You can't see what you're typing > > and you have no way of knowing what keyboard layout is in use. > > Perhaps check your layout by typing characters at the login prompt, > then rub them all out, and continue with your login. There are sometimes situations where that isn't feasible, like BIOS paswords or passwords to permit access to encrypted file systems you need to enter during boot. And we shouldn't have issues like that in the first place. Nowadays it's not too much to expect that a computer can identify a keyboard and make it so that all the keys do what can be expected, without/before any extra configuration. After all, what do we have USB for? > > > I don't use Gnome. I have /e/d/keyboard set up so that I can switch > > > layouts, but I actually set them automatically in .xsession,¹ in > > > the same way as I configure mice buttons and motions, trackpad > > > tapping/scrolling behaviour, and so on. Each device is configured > > > individually. > > > > Each keyboard, too? > > Yes, that way my keyboards will work correctly wherever they're > plugged, as I have a mixture US- and GB-origin laptops and keyboards. Nice --- that's sure a feature missing in Gnome. > > > When I type Shift-3 on the IBM, it types £; on the Internet Pro it > > > types #, just as indicated on their keycaps. Similarly with ¬ and ~ > > > on the key to the left of 1, when shifted. The extra key that GB > > > keyboards have, \|, is left of Z, and the position of one other key > > > is moved, allowing for a tall Return key instead of a wide one. > > > > Is that because you configured it so, or does it happen without extra > > configuration? > > It's in the script that was mentioned in the footnote, where the > Id for the keyboard etc comes from the aforementioned xinput command, > which lists all the devices connected. Isn't that something that should happen automatically? > > The key left of Z is usually T. See what I mean? > > Not really, no. But now you've revealed your keyboard looks like > 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I can tell you that the extra GB key is the one > that's unengraved, and it's still left of Z, as I wrote. For the pound sign? If I needed a pound sign, that would be a nice place put it via keyd. > > On my keyboard the keycap is, strangely, blank, and it types < or > > > I remember using a keyboard that had such a key, but I can't recall > which: it was decades ago. But what was most unusual about that > keyboard was the comma and fullstop keys were the same when shifted. > (More conventional would have been ; and :, as in some continental > layouts.) It was great for typing reference lists in scientific papers. Perhaps that was a misconfiguration? I guess most languages have : and ;, and computers do need those keys. > > > You were asking me to refute something that Fedora is alleged to have > > > said, without actually showing anywhere that they said it. > > > > You can use a search engine as well as I can. For example: > > Why should I search for you? I don't need to search, I've already done it. > > https://blog.nicco.love/gnome-is-gradually-dropping-x11/ > > I'm not really concerned with Gnome—I'm not a DE-user. > > > https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/395 > > I don't see any timeframe mapped out there, and don't see how it > supports your view. I'm sure you can find more information when you look for it. > > > > > > I'm sure others will follow. It's only that an up to it's date Debian > > > > > > is already outdated so badly that you can't even get an AMD graphics > > > > > > card to work which was released a year ago. Maybe that's why Debian > > > > > > users haven't noticed yet. > > > I don't see why or how facts would insult anyone. > > "So badly" is not a fact, and neither is "Debian users haven't noticed yet" 'So badly' is a fact. What haven't they not noticed yet? > > Experience is not opinion. > > /Your/ experience is what forms your opinions, which you now call > "facts". No, you're confusing experience, opinion and facts. > Others may have had different experiences and hold different opinions. > I certainly do. That's not my problem. You can always verify that at the time I tried to get an AMD graphics card with a freshly installed Debian did not work despite that card had come out already about a year ago and the Debian installation was up to date. That same card worked fine with Fedora out of the box. It is a fact that Debian was too old. It doesn't matter what you believe or what your opinion are, they don't change the facts. > > I'm not insulting anyone. If I did insult someone, I'd have reason > > to, and that someone would probably know. > > > > Of course you may feel insulted by facts and/or experience, but don't > > blame me for it. > > > > Besides, there is no such thing as 'social media'; what you're > > referring to is commercial media, and I don't have anything to do with > > that. You're free to believe whatever you want. > I think the first two paragraphs support my view. As for the third: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media That only shows that wikipedia has fallen for the misunderstanding that 'social media' is not social but commercial. I might even go so far as to say that it is not only commercial but anti-social, but that might require more research I have no interest in doing.
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-26 04:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <IbzQK-cFCA-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267671 |
On Wed 21 Feb 2024 at 23:16:41 (+0100), hw wrote: > On Wed, 2024-02-21 at 12:55 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > On Tue 13 Feb 2024 at 08:09:40 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > On Sun, 2024-02-11 at 10:35 -0600, David Wright wrote: > > > > On Wed 07 Feb 2024 at 06:58:39 (+0100), hw wrote: > > > > > [...] > > > I'd use multiple keyboards if I had to do that and just change between > > > keyboards. > > > > Do it if you like. That's what I have on my computer in the basement: > > a GB-layout M keyboard and a US-layout Microsoft Pro. > > And is their layout identical? No: Great Britain, GB, and United States, US. British keyboards have an extra key left of Z; yes, that Z. It's engraved with \|. There is also an extra key in the ASDFG… row. It's left of the Return key, which has a different shape, being merged with the key above, ie the \| key. Of course, that reduces the number of keys in the QWERTY… row. Which in turn leads to displacements of the following symbols: ~, @, #, \, |, ", and allows the addition of two more: ¬ and £. > If isn't, do all the keys on both > keyboards what you expect them to do? Yes, as engraved. There are a lot of shifted key combinations too, but on the whole I prefer to use Compose sequences, as I find them more logical. I got used to using them long before I got my first PC. Rather than remembering which shifted key types ©, I prefer typing CapsLock c o (or o c) instead. And I've chosen some of the more obscure ones for myself, eg CapsLock # d s for 𝄪 and CapsLock # d b for 𝄫. > > > > > > My 2014 keyboard appears to identify itself correctly as a K520. My > > > > > > old IBM M says it's an "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", which seems > > > > > > reasonable for a keyboard dating from 1988. > > > Where does it show up? Where does the information originate from? > > > Perhaps the information is merely an assumption some of the involved > > > the software makes and not something the keyboard tells it. > > > > I get it from xinput, which I assume gets it from udev, as the ID's > > description string occurs in /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb. > > Does that mean it doesn't come form the keyboard itself? The OS sends a code and the keyboard returns some bytes, which the OS interprets as a description. For a keyboard as old as the IBM, I guess it would be fairly rudimentary, but perhaps it's more expansive for modern keyboards. I think the OS can also send programming codes to some modern keyboards to modify their behaviour. The properties that udev discovers and deduces can be found in /run/udev/data/c13\:* (amongst a load of other character devices). The implications of those properties would be found, presumably, in the drivers. [ … ] > But then, how many manufacturers nowadays make keyboards with 122 keys > like these terminal keyboards for PCs? The only one I know of is > Unicomp, and they have adjusted the keyboard controller to deliver > substitutes for keys PCs don't know (or usually don't have) in order > to make the keyobard usable for PCs. I don't know anything about this keyboard apart from reading that new ones contain some model of Raspberry, making it easier to reflash the controller. > Why would the kernel developers make provisions for keyboards that > don't exist (for PCs)? Why would the kernel developers restrict themselves to one architecture? [ … ] > You mean wev? What are trying to decode? I think F18 is being treated as a Left-shifted F6, except that it releases the Shift before releasing F6, whereas a typist would normally release Shift after F6. > I usually NumLock enabled; if it's ever turned off, it's usually only > by accidident. > > > > For the backtab key it says: > > > > Looking at 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I don't know which key that is. But again, > > NumLock appears to be on. > > It's the key to the left to the Delete key which is below the key > labeled Dup/Insert. OK, I actually thought it might be the key left of Dup/Insert because I didn't know that symbol, whereas the key left of Delete appears to have the same symbol as the keyboard's Enter key (almost next to it). It looks as if it sends codes similar to F18, using Control instead of Shift, but in the same unconventional order. AFAICT the two keys you pressed happen to be ones that don't react to NumLock being set. > > Why would it not be able to send a keycode for F18? > > It's because PCs have no more than 12 function keys. > > Maybe they can have more nowadays, but where do you find a keyboard > for PCs that has more than 12 "true" function keys? https://www.flickr.com/photos/triplehaata/albums/72157650296043599/with/15857592493 looks ancient enough not to be USB, but modern enough to have a PS/2 plug. [ … ] > > This AiO desktop computer, with a wireless keyboard, obeys FN-F11 > > (engraved ⏻ with PC underneath) happily, and promptly falls asleep. > > Such a Fn key is for laptops; I don't want one on a normal keyboard. The idea behind this is that you can use the wireless keyboard with a laptop to 1) improve the typing touch, 2) give you a proper keypad instead of its being folded into the Qwerty keys, 3) substitute for a faulty or broken keyboard. The marginal cost of marketing an FN-less keyboard for you, and another with FN for everyone else, would be rather wasteful. > And I was talking about actual keys we should have more of, not yet > another way (or layer) to modify what the existing keys do. If you > remember the ZX Spectrum, you may also remember how it was infamous > for having all kinds of things on every key, and some modifier keys to > summon all the stuff that was on the keys. People didn't like it back > then and probably wouldn't like now even less. I thought the problem that people complained about was the rubbery feel to the keys, rather than their engravings. [ … ] > So you figured out how to change the keyboard layout with Wayland. I use X—I'm not really interested in wayland. > So you can't really configure your keyboards once you use wayland. Not surprisingly, /I/ can't: I don't know whether others can and do. > > But I don't always use a US keyboard: I use two or three GB keyboards too. > > Well, a German keyboard is quite different from those. Yes, but I don't think you're unique in using a German keyboard. > Well, what would you do if you had two different keyboards connected > at the same time, one US or GB one, and a German one? Or you could > have three, US, GB and DE. > And without Gnome and KDE? How do you configure them? You'd get three IDs in the xinput listing, and set the third to a German layout. That's with X—I don't have Gnome, KDE or wayland. > > > How do you disable NumLock completely? I mean that function, not even > > > the key. I want it to be always on unless I change that myself. > > > > I guess you'd just use xmodmap to define the scancode to do nothing. > > There's no xmodmap with Wayland. I'm not sure if you can do it with > xmodmap. I doubt you can. The web seems to think you use XKB, but also that wayland has a way to go before this is sorted. But I haven't searched further than the little snippets that google writes under hits. Presumably you're more motivated than me to read the links themselves. > > > For passwords it's outright dumb. You can't see what you're typing > > > and you have no way of knowing what keyboard layout is in use. > > > > Perhaps check your layout by typing characters at the login prompt, > > then rub them all out, and continue with your login. > > There are sometimes situations where that isn't feasible, like BIOS > paswords or passwords to permit access to encrypted file systems you > need to enter during boot. And we shouldn't have issues like that in > the first place. Nowadays it's not too much to expect that a computer > can identify a keyboard and make it so that all the keys do what can > be expected, without/before any extra configuration. After all, what > do we have USB for? If that's a real problem for you, I would follow the advice that's generally given about avoiding "funny" keys like @, ", and so on; only you'd also have to avoid one or two others, like T/Z etc. (I don't see a role for USB in this.) > > > > When I type Shift-3 on the IBM, it types £; on the Internet Pro it > > > > types #, just as indicated on their keycaps. Similarly with ¬ and ~ > > > > on the key to the left of 1, when shifted. [ … ] > > > > > > Is that because you configured it so, or does it happen without extra > > > configuration? > > > > It's in the script that was mentioned in the footnote, where the > > Id for the keyboard etc comes from the aforementioned xinput command, > > which lists all the devices connected. > > Isn't that something that should happen automatically? I wouldn't expect it on legacy keyboards. As for really modern ones, I don't know—I don't have any. Even then, you need to allow for some configuring; eg, many people swap Alt and Ctrl but without changing the keycaps. I define CapsLock as Compose. And so on. I guess the perfect world would be one where the keycaps were not printed on the keys, but electronically generated by the keyboard itself. And when you held down a shift key, the keycaps would change, to reflect the new state. > > [ … ] your keyboard looks like > > 911QQZnUFrL.jpg, I can tell you that the extra GB key is the one > > that's unengraved, and it's still left of Z, as I wrote. > > For the pound sign? If I needed a pound sign, that would be a nice > place put it via keyd. No, as mentioned above, the extra key found on a GB keyboard is \|, and the extra symbols are £ (on Shift-3) and ¬ (on Shift-`). > > > On my keyboard the keycap is, strangely, blank, and it types < or > > > > > I remember using a keyboard that had such a key, but I can't recall > > which: it was decades ago. But what was most unusual about that > > keyboard was the comma and fullstop keys were the same when shifted. > > (More conventional would have been ; and :, as in some continental > > layouts.) It was great for typing reference lists in scientific papers. > > Perhaps that was a misconfiguration? I guess most languages have : > and ;, and computers do need those keys. No, you can see it at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lk201.jpg. We used the GB variant, with #£ over the 3. You can also see there's a Compose key. I used one of these keyboards, first with a VT220, then with my VT241, from about the early 1980s until around 1996 when I started using Debian. As for the rest of the post, I'll condense my reply down to: > 'social media' is not social [ … ] > I might even go so > far as to say that it is [ … ] anti-social, … which is why I wrote (11 Feb): "Those really belong on social media, if anywhere, and certainly not on a technical mailing list." Cheers, David.
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| From | Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-06 10:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4pMt-8fKG-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267012 |
On 6 Feb 2024 00:11 +0100, from hw@adminart.net (hw): > and for almost 30 years we had > to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session numlockx has been around since _at least_ 2002, so over 20 years. Depending on your exact definition of "almost 30 years" that leaves a gap of at most a few years. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Activating_numlock_on_bootup&oldid=5154 https://tracker.debian.org/news/509143/accepted-numlockx-10-3-i386-source/ May I humbly suggest that if you're having some issue, it might be more productive if you ask how to solve that issue within the environment you're using (whether GNOME on Wayland or Xfce on X11 or plain virtual terminals at the console or a mix or whatever) than to simply gripe about the issue and when someone suggests a possible solution simply brush it off? Chances are that someone has an entirely workable suggestion, if not an outright solution, which _would_ help; but whether you intend them that way or not, your posts come across as rather condescending or spiteful, which seems to me to likely put people off from even reading them, severely reducing the pool of people who might have an answer to share. -- Michael Kjörling 🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
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| From | hw <hw@adminart.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-06 11:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4r1T-8gpN-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267043 |
On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 09:17 +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote: > On 6 Feb 2024 00:11 +0100, from hw@adminart.net (hw): > > and for almost 30 years we had > > to manually switch on NumLock every time we started an X11 session > > numlockx has been around since _at least_ 2002, so over 20 years. > Depending on your exact definition of "almost 30 years" that leaves a > gap of at most a few years. NumLock has been around well before 2002. > > https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Activating_numlock_on_bootup&oldid=5154 > > https://tracker.debian.org/news/509143/accepted-numlockx-10-3-i386-source/ > > May I humbly suggest that if you're having some issue, it might be > more productive if you ask how to solve that issue within the > environment you're using (whether GNOME on Wayland or Xfce on X11 or > plain virtual terminals at the console or a mix or whatever) than to > simply gripe about the issue and when someone suggests a possible > solution simply brush it off? Nobody has yet suggested a solution to how to change keyboard layouts when using wayland. > Chances are that someone has an entirely workable suggestion, if not > an outright solution, which _would_ help; but whether you intend > them that way or not, your posts come across as rather condescending > or spiteful, which seems to me to likely put people off from even > reading them, severely reducing the pool of people who might have an > answer to share. It's not unusual that people don't like to hear the truth.
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-02-06 11:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? |
| Message-ID | <I4rbz-8gt4-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #267047 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 11:35:34AM +0100, hw wrote: [...] > > Chances are that someone has an entirely workable suggestion, if not > > an outright solution [...] > It's not unusual that people don't like to hear the truth. I was following this thread with some interest. Now, I'm out. Cheers -- t
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