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Groups > linux.debian.user > #270113 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2024-06-16 10:20 +0200 |
| Last post | 2024-06-17 11:00 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 125 — 25 participants |
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Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 10:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Richard <rrosner5@gmail.com> - 2024-06-16 15:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 10:50 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-16 16:00 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 10:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-17 13:00 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-17 13:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 10:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-18 13:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:00 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-17 16:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-17 16:30 +0200
Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-17 17:40 +0200
Re: Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-17 17:50 +0200
Re: Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file eben@gmx.us - 2024-06-17 19:30 +0200
Re: Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:10 +0200
Re: Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-17 18:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-17 19:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-17 19:50 +0200
System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-18 07:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-18 10:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 10:20 +0200
RTC, was Re: System time/timezone David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-19 06:10 +0200
Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2024-06-19 21:20 +0200
Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-19 21:40 +0200
Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-06-20 04:00 +0200
Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-06-20 04:00 +0200
Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:20 +0200
Re: RTC, was Re: System time/timezone Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2024-06-20 05:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-19 06:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-19 06:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-18 13:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-19 06:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-19 13:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-06-19 19:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-20 07:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-06-20 07:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file tomas@tuxteam.de - 2024-06-20 08:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-06-21 04:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-21 05:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-21 06:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-22 17:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-06-22 18:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 04:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 05:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-23 06:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 07:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-23 08:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file eben@gmx.us - 2024-06-23 15:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-23 16:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 02:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file eben@gmx.us - 2024-06-26 15:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2024-06-24 15:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2024-06-24 15:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2024-06-24 17:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Heriberto Avelino <heriberto.avelino@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 00:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2024-06-24 17:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file eben@gmx.us - 2024-06-24 18:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-24 18:20 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2024-06-25 00:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-06-25 00:20 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2024-06-25 00:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-06-25 10:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-06-26 12:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-06-26 18:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-26 19:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-28 06:20 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Erwan DAVID <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2024-06-28 07:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file John Crawley <john@bunsenlabs.org> - 2024-06-28 08:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-28 11:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file John Crawley <john@bunsenlabs.org> - 2024-06-30 03:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2024-06-25 20:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-25 21:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 03:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 02:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 02:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-23 14:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-24 02:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2024-06-23 17:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 02:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-21 13:20 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-22 17:00 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-22 18:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-23 06:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 07:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-21 06:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 05:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-22 07:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-22 17:20 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 04:40 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-23 05:10 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-06-23 21:50 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-26 02:30 +0200
Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-06-20 04:00 +0200
time display was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-06-17 17:00 +0200
Re: time display was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-17 17:10 +0200
Re: time display was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:20 +0200
Re: time display was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 16:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-20 13:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-20 13:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2024-06-20 13:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-22 16:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-21 06:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-22 10:40 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-22 16:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-22 17:00 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-22 18:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-23 06:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 10:40 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-25 13:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-06-25 14:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-25 15:00 +0200
Australia/Eucla timezone abbreviation (was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file) Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 17:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-22 17:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 10:50 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-17 06:40 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 10:50 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-17 11:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 14:10 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-17 14:20 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-17 13:30 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-06-17 17:50 +0200
Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2024-06-17 11:00 +0200
Page 4 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 Next page →
| From | The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-25 00:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <ISZTc-5kaQ-23@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270430 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On 2024-06-24 at 09:41, Erwan David wrote: > AM/PM would not be so strange if between 11AM and 1 PM it was 12 AM > ... Although I don't think anything or anyone actually does it this way, I think strictly speaking the correct 12-hour notation for that time would be "12:00 M" - followed by 12:00:01 PM, and preceded by 11:59:59 AM. AM stands for "ante meridiem", i.e., before the midpoint; PM stands for "post meridiem", i.e., after the midpoint. The only correct term for the time that is exactly the midpoint would be "meridiem", and therefore, M. (Similar logic could be used for 11:59:59 PM, 12:00 M, and 12:00:01 AM, where the standalone M would stand for "midnight". That does expose one unfortunate weakness of this system: unless you introduce an additional layer of complexity, e.g. using "00:00 M", the notations for noon and midnight would be identical.) -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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| From | John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-25 00:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IT0cx-5kzH-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270447 |
The Wanderer writes: > (Similar logic could be used for 11:59:59 PM, 12:00 M, and 12:00:01 AM, > where the standalone M would stand for "midnight". That does expose one > unfortunate weakness of this system: unless you introduce an additional > layer of complexity, e.g. using "00:00 M", the notations for noon and > midnight would be identical.) 12 Noon and 12 Midnight works. -- John Hasler john@sugarbit.com Elmwood, WI USA
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| From | The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-25 00:30 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IT0md-5kCY-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270449 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On 2024-06-24 at 18:12, John Hasler wrote: > The Wanderer writes: > >> (Similar logic could be used for 11:59:59 PM, 12:00 M, and 12:00:01 AM, >> where the standalone M would stand for "midnight". That does expose one >> unfortunate weakness of this system: unless you introduce an additional >> layer of complexity, e.g. using "00:00 M", the notations for noon and >> midnight would be identical.) > > 12 Noon and 12 Midnight works. Except that "noon" doesn't begin with "m", and therefore "12:00 noon" can't be abbreviated to "12:00 M". I think that (plus the fact of "ante meridiem"/"post meridiem") was probably what I was drawing on in coming up with the idea in the first place. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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| From | "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-25 10:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IT9fP-5qdQ-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270450 |
On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 06:21:57PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > On 2024-06-24 at 18:12, John Hasler wrote: > > > The Wanderer writes: > > > >> (Similar logic could be used for 11:59:59 PM, 12:00 M, and 12:00:01 AM, > >> where the standalone M would stand for "midnight". That does expose one > >> unfortunate weakness of this system: unless you introduce an additional > >> layer of complexity, e.g. using "00:00 M", the notations for noon and > >> midnight would be identical.) > > > > 12 Noon and 12 Midnight works. > British forces - and probably also merchant shipping - use log keeping for radio purposes in UTC. The need to be sure of dates means that 0000 doesn't exist - logs jump from 2359 to 0001. A colleague - ex-RAF - reckons that those are the two minutes the RAF gives each person for personal space :) Andy > Except that "noon" doesn't begin with "m", and therefore "12:00 noon" > can't be abbreviated to "12:00 M". > > I think that (plus the fact of "ante meridiem"/"post meridiem") was > probably what I was drawing on in coming up with the idea in the first > place. > > -- > The Wanderer > > The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one > persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all > progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw >
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| From | debian-user@howorth.org.uk |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-26 12:50 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <ITynT-5I47-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270449 |
David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote: > On Mon 24 Jun 2024 at 17:12:18 (-0500), John Hasler wrote: > > The Wanderer writes: > > > (Similar logic could be used for 11:59:59 PM, 12:00 M, and > > > 12:00:01 AM, where the standalone M would stand for "midnight". > > > That does expose one unfortunate weakness of this system: unless > > > you introduce an additional layer of complexity, e.g. using > > > "00:00 M", the notations for noon and midnight would be > > > identical.) > > > > 12 Noon and 12 Midnight works. > > Except that The Wanderer's "strictly correct" version, M for noon, > is out there in some pre-2008 documents. We've been here before: > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/09/msg00471.html And I thought it was just me that got confused between 12am and 12pm :( > Cheers, > David.
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| From | John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-26 18:30 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <ITDGV-5Lpj-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270497 |
I wrote: > 12 Noon and 12 Midnight works. David Wright wrote: > Except that The Wanderer's "strictly correct" version, M for noon, > is out there in some pre-2008 documents. If you use M for noon you should use either AM or PM for midnight. -- John Hasler john@sugarbit.com Elmwood, WI USA
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| From | Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-26 19:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <ITE9X-5LE3-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270500 |
On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 11:25:38 -0500, John Hasler wrote: > I wrote: > > 12 Noon and 12 Midnight works. > > David Wright wrote: > > Except that The Wanderer's "strictly correct" version, M for noon, > > is out there in some pre-2008 documents. > > If you use M for noon you should use either AM or PM for midnight. Or... you could STOP confusing yourself and everyone around you, and use the correct, standard notation. 12:00 AM = Midnight 12:00 PM = Noon Like it or not, this is what people agreed on, decades or centuries ago. If you use this, you will be understood. If you make up your own crazy crap, you will not be. And then you risk polluting your mind with your made-up crap to the point where you can no longer remember what the correct versions are.
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-28 06:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IUbfz-68dH-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270501 |
On Wed 26 Jun 2024 at 12:50:32 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 11:25:38 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> > I wrote:
> > > 12 Noon and 12 Midnight works.
> >
> > David Wright wrote:
> > > Except that The Wanderer's "strictly correct" version, M for noon,
> > > is out there in some pre-2008 documents.
> >
> > If you use M for noon you should use either AM or PM for midnight.
That was the case in 1984¹, when they used PM, which agrees with the
expression "midnight on Saturday", and with the terminology of
deadlines, both of which assume that midnight belongs to the end
of the day. But it's still somewhat arbitrary.
By the 2000 edition, they decided to eliminate M in favour of 12 AM,
presumably because of 12 PM being already established for midnight.
Then, in the 2008 edition, they swapped AM and PM around, without
so much as a footnote.
> Or... you could STOP confusing yourself and everyone around you, and
> use the correct, standard notation.
>
> 12:00 AM = Midnight
> 12:00 PM = Noon
>
> Like it or not, this is what people agreed on, decades or centuries ago.
> If you use this, you will be understood. If you make up your own crazy
> crap, you will not be. And then you risk polluting your mind with your
> made-up crap to the point where you can no longer remember what the
> correct versions are.
I don't think that adopting AM/PM at 12 o'clock is some centuries-old
tradition, with such a recent volte-face. The best idea is just to
avoid them both. As the Chicago Manual of Style online FAQ says:
"Q. To me, 12:00 is either noon or midnight, never a.m. or p.m.
I keep seeing copy that says “before 12 p.m.” and I can’t
convince the copywriters that this is confusing. Can you cite any
rule that would clarify this once and for all?
"A. Yes. Please see CMOS 9.38: “Except in the twenty-four-hour system
(see 9.39), numbers should never be used to express noon or
midnight (except, informally, in an expression like twelve o'clock
at night). Although noon can be expressed as 12:00 m. (m. =
meridies), very few use that form. And the term 12:00 p.m. is
ambiguous, if not illogical.”
I was taught that at school in the 1950s. It seems it got forgotten.
¹ various editions of US Government Printing Office Style Manual.
Cheers,
David.
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| From | Erwan DAVID <erwan@rail.eu.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-28 07:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IUc1X-68PD-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270532 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
Le 28 juin 2024 13:12:03 David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> a écrit : > On Wed 26 Jun 2024 at 12:50:32 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 11:25:38 -0500, John Hasler wrote: >> > I wrote: >> > > 12 Noon and 12 Midnight works. >> > >> > David Wright wrote: >> > > Except that The Wanderer's "strictly correct" version, M for noon, >> > > is out there in some pre-2008 documents. >> > >> > If you use M for noon you should use either AM or PM for midnight. > > That was the case in 1984¹, when they used PM, which agrees with the > expression "midnight on Saturday", and with the terminology of > deadlines, both of which assume that midnight belongs to the end > of the day. But it's still somewhat arbitrary. > > By the 2000 edition, they decided to eliminate M in favour of 12 AM, > presumably because of 12 PM being already established for midnight. > > Then, in the 2008 edition, they swapped AM and PM around, without > so much as a footnote. > >> Or... you could STOP confusing yourself and everyone around you, and >> use the correct, standard notation. >> >> 12:00 AM = Midnight >> 12:00 PM = Noon >> >> Like it or not, this is what people agreed on, decades or centuries ago. >> If you use this, you will be understood. If you make up your own crazy >> crap, you will not be. And then you risk polluting your mind with your >> made-up crap to the point where you can no longer remember what the >> correct versions are. > > I don't think that adopting AM/PM at 12 o'clock is some centuries-old > tradition, with such a recent volte-face. The best idea is just to > avoid them both. As the Chicago Manual of Style online FAQ says: > > "Q. To me, 12:00 is either noon or midnight, never a.m. or p.m. > I keep seeing copy that says “before 12 p.m.” and I can’t > convince the copywriters that this is confusing. Can you cite any > rule that would clarify this once and for all? > > "A. Yes. Please see CMOS 9.38: “Except in the twenty-four-hour system > (see 9.39), numbers should never be used to express noon or > midnight (except, informally, in an expression like twelve o'clock > at night). Although noon can be expressed as 12:00 m. (m. = > meridies), very few use that form. And the term 12:00 p.m. is > ambiguous, if not illogical.” > > I was taught that at school in the 1950s. It seems it got forgotten. > > ¹ various editions of US Government Printing Office Style Manual. > > Cheers, > David. Seen in Japan that noon is 0:00 pm Quite logical -- Erwan David
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| From | John Crawley <john@bunsenlabs.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-28 08:30 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IUdhn-69v0-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270533 |
On 28/06/2024 14:00, Erwan DAVID wrote: > > Le 28 juin 2024 13:12:03 David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> a écrit : > >> On Wed 26 Jun 2024 at 12:50:32 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote: >>> On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 11:25:38 -0500, John Hasler wrote: >>>> I wrote: >>>>> 12 Noon and 12 Midnight works. >>>> >>>> David Wright wrote: >>>>> Except that The Wanderer's "strictly correct" version, M for noon, >>>>> is out there in some pre-2008 documents. >>>> >>>> If you use M for noon you should use either AM or PM for midnight. >> >> That was the case in 1984¹, when they used PM, which agrees with the >> expression "midnight on Saturday", and with the terminology of >> deadlines, both of which assume that midnight belongs to the end >> of the day. But it's still somewhat arbitrary. >> >> By the 2000 edition, they decided to eliminate M in favour of 12 AM, >> presumably because of 12 PM being already established for midnight. >> >> Then, in the 2008 edition, they swapped AM and PM around, without >> so much as a footnote. >> >>> Or... you could STOP confusing yourself and everyone around you, and >>> use the correct, standard notation. >>> >>> 12:00 AM = Midnight >>> 12:00 PM = Noon >>> >>> Like it or not, this is what people agreed on, decades or centuries ago. >>> If you use this, you will be understood. If you make up your own crazy >>> crap, you will not be. And then you risk polluting your mind with your >>> made-up crap to the point where you can no longer remember what the >>> correct versions are. >> >> I don't think that adopting AM/PM at 12 o'clock is some centuries-old >> tradition, with such a recent volte-face. The best idea is just to >> avoid them both. As the Chicago Manual of Style online FAQ says: >> >> "Q. To me, 12:00 is either noon or midnight, never a.m. or p.m. >> I keep seeing copy that says “before 12 p.m.” and I can’t >> convince the copywriters that this is confusing. Can you cite any >> rule that would clarify this once and for all? >> >> "A. Yes. Please see CMOS 9.38: “Except in the twenty-four-hour system >> (see 9.39), numbers should never be used to express noon or >> midnight (except, informally, in an expression like twelve o'clock >> at night). Although noon can be expressed as 12:00 m. (m. = >> meridies), very few use that form. And the term 12:00 p.m. is >> ambiguous, if not illogical.” >> >> I was taught that at school in the 1950s. It seems it got forgotten. >> >> ¹ various editions of US Government Printing Office Style Manual. >> >> Cheers, >> David. > Seen in Japan that noon is 0:00 pm > Quite logical > > -- > Erwan David Except that midnight is also 0:00, so you still have the am/pm confusion. They should have kept 0:00 just for midnight really. -- John
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| From | Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-28 11:50 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IUgoV-6bkN-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270534 |
On 28/6/24 16:13, John Crawley wrote: > > Except that midnight is also 0:00, so you still have the am/pm confusion. > They should have kept 0:00 just for midnight really. That's the first time I've seen anything to justify calling midnight AM. Thankyou But how can mid-day be after mid-day? Ah: it has been set up as a convention. -- All the best Keith Bainbridge keithrbau@gmail.com keith.bainbridge.3216@gmail.com +61 (0)447 667 468 UTC + 10:00
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| From | John Crawley <john@bunsenlabs.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-30 03:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IURHP-6zr6-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270535 |
On 28/06/2024 18:42, Keith Bainbridge wrote: > > On 28/6/24 16:13, John Crawley wrote: >> >> Except that midnight is also 0:00, so you still have the am/pm confusion. >> They should have kept 0:00 just for midnight really. > > > That's the first time I've seen anything to justify calling midnight AM. > Thankyou > > But how can mid-day be after mid-day? Ah: it has been set up as a convention. > > To be honest, I don't think I often hear mid-day referred to as "zero hour" (0:00) here in Japan. It seems to be more common for midnight, where it makes sense, being the same as in the 24hr clock. btw in Thailand they divide the day into four six-hour sections, so you can have "three in the night", "three in the morning", "three in the afternoon" or "three in the evening". -- John
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| From | "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-25 20:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <ITjfb-5ycl-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270447 |
On Monday 24 June 2024 05:53:00 pm The Wanderer wrote: > On 2024-06-24 at 09:41, Erwan David wrote: > > > AM/PM would not be so strange if between 11AM and 1 PM it was 12 AM > > ... > > Although I don't think anything or anyone actually does it this way, I > think strictly speaking the correct 12-hour notation for that time would > be "12:00 M" - followed by 12:00:01 PM, and preceded by 11:59:59 AM. > > AM stands for "ante meridiem", i.e., before the midpoint; PM stands for > "post meridiem", i.e., after the midpoint. The only correct term for the > time that is exactly the midpoint would be "meridiem", and therefore, M. > > (Similar logic could be used for 11:59:59 PM, 12:00 M, and 12:00:01 AM, > where the standalone M would stand for "midnight". That does expose one > unfortunate weakness of this system: unless you introduce an additional > layer of complexity, e.g. using "00:00 M", the notations for noon and > midnight would be identical.) So I have this digital clock up there in my panel, and in the virtual machine here running Slackware I also have one. The one under Debian shows 00:00 when it hits midnight, while the one under Slackware shows 12:00... I wonder what decisions were made to give this result? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin
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| From | Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-25 21:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <ITjyx-5yms-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270480 |
On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 14:25:51 -0400, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > So I have this digital clock up there in my panel, and in the virtual machine here running Slackware I also have one. The one under Debian shows 00:00 when it hits midnight, while the one under Slackware shows 12:00... > > I wonder what decisions were made to give this result? As a reminder, the locales provided by libc6 in Debian have changed in the last couple releases. hobbit:~$ LC_TIME=en_US.utf8 date Tue Jun 25 02:50:33 PM EDT 2024 hobbit:~$ LC_TIME=C date Tue Jun 25 14:50:37 EDT 2024 Note that LC_TIME=en_US.utf8 uses a 12-hour clock by default now. This was not the case until recently. Before that, it used a 24-hour clock just like LC_TIME=C does. I've exported LC_TIME=C into my environment to get the previous behavior back. That's my choice. Perhaps your Slackware system is using a different libc version than your Debian system. Or you've got LC_TIME in your environment on one or the other or both. It could also just be a different version of your clock program. Or a wholly different clock program.
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| From | Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-26 03:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <ITpaV-5Cir-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270447 |
On 25/6/24 07:53, The Wanderer wrote: > Although I don't think anything or anyone actually does it this way, I > think strictly speaking the correct 12-hour notation for that time would > be "12:00 M" - followed by 12:00:01 PM, and preceded by 11:59:59 AM. Sorry to repeat you - well you did it MUCH more eloquently -- All the best Keith Bainbridge keithrbau@gmail.com keith.bainbridge.3216@gmail.com +61 (0)447 667 468 UTC + 10:00
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| From | Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-26 02:50 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <ITp1f-5Cfl-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270430 |
On 24/6/24 23:41, Erwan David wrote: >> >> > AM/PM would not be so strange if between 11AM and 1 PM it was 12 AM ... Umm 12Meridian?? -- All the best Keith Bainbridge keithrbau@gmail.com keith.bainbridge.3216@gmail.com +61 (0)447 667 468 UTC + 10:00
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| From | Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-26 02:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <IToRz-5Cc3-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270400 |
On 23/6/24 18:57, Brad Rogers wrote: > On Sun, 23 Jun 2024 15:35:14 +1000 > Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hello Keith, > >> +14:00?? I've only ever heard of maxima of +/- 12:00. > > AFAIAC, it was political willy waving, nothing more; To be 'first' into > the new millennium. > > As if that has any cachet whatsoever. > Now I see. They decreed that they were on the same day as Australia and New Zealand (apart from the odd hours). Makes sense. We both help assist them lots. I just wasn't aware that a culture could do that. But do the US protectorates in the west Pacific (like the place where our Julian Assange is in court this morning) also adjust there offset from UTC? That would likely make more sense. But the being first into the new millennium didn't work. All the IT gurus headed to New Zealand to see what was going to happen with Y2K bug. -- All the best Keith Bainbridge keithrbau@gmail.com keith.bainbridge.3216@gmail.com +61 (0)447 667 468 UTC + 10:00
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| From | Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-23 14:50 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <ISuPn-4Yo9-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270397 |
On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 23:25:43 -0500, David Wright wrote: > creation of Pacific/Kiritimati (+14:00), which became a press > story at the start of the new millennium. > > $ TZ=Pacific/Kiritamati date; TZ=Australia/Eucla date > Sun Jun 23 04:24:54 Pacific 2024 > Sun Jun 23 13:09:54 +0845 2024 > $ Typo there; you misspelled "Kiritimati" in the command. hobbit:~$ TZ=Pacific/Kiritimati date; TZ=Australia/Eucla date Mon Jun 24 02:39:17 +14 2024 Sun Jun 23 21:24:17 +0845 2024 The fact that date(1) treats any misspelled or otherwise incorrect TZ variable as if it were UTC, but then goes on to write the mispelled time zone name in its *output*, as if it were actually being recognized, has tripped me up in the past. I really wish it would just throw an error... but it doesn't.
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-24 02:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <ISFhL-55F6-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270405 |
On Sun 23 Jun 2024 at 08:41:51 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 23:25:43 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > creation of Pacific/Kiritimati (+14:00), which became a press
> > story at the start of the new millennium.
> >
> > $ TZ=Pacific/Kiritamati date; TZ=Australia/Eucla date
> > Sun Jun 23 04:24:54 Pacific 2024
> > Sun Jun 23 13:09:54 +0845 2024
> > $
>
> Typo there; you misspelled "Kiritimati" in the command.
>
> hobbit:~$ TZ=Pacific/Kiritimati date; TZ=Australia/Eucla date
> Mon Jun 24 02:39:17 +14 2024
> Sun Jun 23 21:24:17 +0845 2024
Yes, I corrected it, but then carelessly pasted the incorrect lines.
> The fact that date(1) treats any misspelled or otherwise incorrect TZ
> variable as if it were UTC, but then goes on to write the mispelled
> time zone name in its *output*, as if it were actually being recognized,
> has tripped me up in the past. I really wish it would just throw an
> error... but it doesn't.
Yes, In the meantime, a function something like this might help:
$ type whattime
whattime is a function
whattime ()
{
[ -z "$1" ] && msgerr "Usage: ${FUNCNAME[0]} place
prints the present time at place (a filename in the zoneinfo lists).
For today's expiration (AoE), use the legacy name, GMT+12." && return 1;
local Where;
find /usr/share/zoneinfo/ \( -type f -o -type l \) | sed -E 's/^[^A-Z]+//;s/GMT\+12/AoE/' | grep -v [0-9] | sed -E 's/AoE/GMT\+12/' | sort -u | grep -i -e "^$1$" -e "/$1$" | while read Where; do
printf '%s ' "$Where";
TZ="$Where" date '+%Y-%m-%d %T %z %A';
done
}
$ for j in kiritimati eucla comodrivadavia samoa gmt+12 factory; do whattime "$j"; done
Pacific/Kiritimati 2024-06-24 13:54:22 +1400 Monday
Australia/Eucla 2024-06-24 08:39:22 +0845 Monday
America/Argentina/ComodRivadavia 2024-06-23 20:54:22 -0300 Sunday
Pacific/Samoa 2024-06-23 12:54:22 -1100 Sunday
US/Samoa 2024-06-23 12:54:22 -1100 Sunday
Etc/GMT+12 2024-06-23 11:54:22 -1200 Sunday
Factory 2024-06-23 23:54:22 -0000 Sunday
$
Cheers,
David.
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| From | Curt <curty@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2024-06-23 17:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file |
| Message-ID | <ISwRb-4ZRM-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #270392 |
On 2024-06-23, Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> wrote: > > I think we are losing sight of the fact that all of timekeeping is an > abstraction and over-generalization. Time zones were created to help > regularize railroad schedules over wide areas. Timezones are an abstraction > that permit us to _pretend_ that it is (physical) noon at the same clock > time over an extended area. When in fact physical high-noon, determined by > the sun's position in the sky, cannot be at the exact same time just a few > centimeters west or east of my eyeballs. > Autrement dit, chacun voit midi à sa porte. --
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