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CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

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  CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Vitold S <vit1251@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 01:50 +0200
    Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? eben@gmx.us - 2024-06-18 02:40 +0200
    Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-06-18 02:40 +0200
    Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-06-18 03:10 +0200
      Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 04:20 +0200
        Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Detlef Vollmann <dv@vollmann.ch> - 2024-06-18 15:10 +0200
          Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-06-18 15:30 +0200
            Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net> - 2024-06-18 19:30 +0200
              Documentation improvement (optical and USB install media) Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-06-18 23:10 +0200
      Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Thomas Dineen <tdineen2021@gmail.com> - 2024-06-18 04:50 +0200
        Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-06-18 08:00 +0200
        Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2024-06-18 18:00 +0200
          Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-06-18 19:10 +0200
            Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2024-06-18 19:40 +0200
      Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Jean-François Bachelet <jfbachelet@free.fr> - 2024-06-18 10:50 +0200
        Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-06-18 15:30 +0200
    Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-06-18 08:40 +0200
      Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Klaus Singvogel <deb-user-ml@singvogel.net> - 2024-06-18 09:10 +0200
    Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2024-06-18 12:00 +0200
      Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-06-18 12:10 +0200
        Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2024-06-18 15:20 +0200

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#270188 — CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

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Good news everyone,

Sorry that the question may have already been clarified earlier, but I am
not a regular member of the user mailing list, so I ask it again.

Every time I download the Debian image, I am faced with a moral disorder
and philosophically go on a historical journey into the past, so that I can
remember and dive deeply into memory during the times of using CDs.

Today in my environment I can be faced with a CD only for scaring away
birds or as an intricate amulet on teenagers’ backpacks as a reference to
the era of their parents, but not for recording images. Let's say, is this
my particular progressive experience, or do people still find the discs to
be as functional as ever?

More and more I see that people usually use USB flash drives everyday and
some large companies (like Microsoft) today provide an image with a USB
stick.

Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
download? Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
will happen?

Again, forgive me if I don’t know some of the important details and
difficulties of booting modern PCs via UEFI or some other feature more
conveniently solved in the CD/DVD format. Then just tell me about it, I'll
read it.

Thanks.

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#270189

On 6/17/24 19:44, Vitold S wrote:
> Today in my environment I can be faced with a CD only for scaring away
> birds or as an intricate amulet on teenagers’ backpacks as a reference to
> the era of their parents, but not for recording images. Let's say, is this
> my particular progressive experience, or do people still find the discs to
> be as functional as ever?

I have two DVD/CD drives (one reads BD as well) because I often get movies
from the library on DVD, copy them to iso, then parse and transcode to
several mkvs.  Yes, this probably makes me a weird.  But hey, it suits my
needs.  I haven't needed them for another use in ages, however.

--
Since methane is eight times more effective as a greenhouse gas than
carbon dioxide, it is ecologically irresponsible for you to not light
your farts. -- TW in AFCA 12/2012

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#270190

Vitold S wrote: 
> Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
> versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
> download? Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
> will happen?

Several years ago.

https://www.debian.org/distrib/netinst

says:

---

You can download a couple of image files of small size, suitable for USB Sticks and similar devices, write them to the media, and then start the installation by booting from that.

There is some diversity in the support for installing from various very small images between the architectures.

For details, please refer to the installation manual for your architecture, especially the chapter "Obtaining System Installation Media".

Here are the links to the available image files (look at the MANIFEST file for information):

    amd64 arm64 armhf i386 mips64el ppc64el s390x

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#270192

> Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
> versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
> download?  Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
> will happen?

AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
a USB flash drive.  So I think the question is whether it's time to
change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
onto optical media.


        Stefan

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#270193

On 18/6/24 09:00, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
>> versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
>> download?  Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
>> will happen?
> AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
> a USB flash drive.  So I think the question is whether it's time to
> change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
> onto optical media.
>
>
>          Stefan
>

The ISO images will be around for a long time. They are the primary 
mechanism of creating virtual machines by attaching virtual drives to a 
.iso file and booting.

I noticed that recent windows natively supports .iso format as a form of 
archive.

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#270211

On 6/18/24 04:10, jeremy ardley wrote:
> 
> On 18/6/24 09:00, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
>>> versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
>>> download?  Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
>>> will happen?
>> AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
>> a USB flash drive.  So I think the question is whether it's time to
>> change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
>> onto optical media.
>>
>>
>>          Stefan
>>
> 
> The ISO images will be around for a long time. They are the primary 
> mechanism of creating virtual machines by attaching virtual drives to a 
> .iso file and booting.

And some of the BIOSes of old PCs are not able to boot from USB...

   Detlef

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#270214

> And some of the BIOSes of old PCs are not able to boot from USB...

Indeed, tho I suspect those machines are 20 years old or more (at least,
all my machines that are <20 years old support booting from a USB key
drive, while of the two older machines I have (both 21 years old), one
of them doesn't support booting from a USB key (tho it supposedly can
boot from USB floppy)).


        Stefan

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#270224

Freely owning I have not followed this entire thread, I simply wish to add 
a couple of points.
First, Linux is, or was represented to me, to reflect choices.  Those 
included  many paths to incorporating the system, allowing an individual 
to use the equipment they have right now to draw upon Linux.
Second, I have two machines in this room both of which are less than 10 
years old, that have cd DVD drives in them, and allow for those boot 
choices.  after all,  one might choose to enjoy music, or a film, without 
the need for  bondage, and subscription factors,  in those formats.
My point is this.
Given how vast the digital divide can be globally, why not insure choices 
to accessing Linux in general and Debian particularly?
Just because your machines are 20 years old, does not mean that is the 
case 
for everyone.
Just my thoughts,



On Tue, 18 Jun 2024, Stefan Monnier wrote:

>> And some of the BIOSes of old PCs are not able to boot from USB...
>
> Indeed, tho I suspect those machines are 20 years old or more (at least,
> all my machines that are <20 years old support booting from a USB key
> drive, while of the two older machines I have (both 21 years old), one
> of them doesn't support booting from a USB key (tho it supposedly can
> boot from USB floppy)).
>
>
>        Stefan
>
>

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#270226 — Documentation improvement (optical and USB install media)

Nobody is advocating removing the optical disk media options.

There are no plans to do so, that I am aware of.

Planning to do so would not make sense, since the current build
process happily produces images suitable for both optical disks
and USB filesystem devices.

All the discussion has been about documentation changes, to make
it more clear how to use the existing images.


-dsr-

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#270194

No! Some of us want to keep using DVD and not be pushed away


On 6/17/2024 6:00 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
>> versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
>> download?  Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
>> will happen?
> AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
> a USB flash drive.  So I think the question is whether it's time to
> change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
> onto optical media.
>
>
>          Stefan
>

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#270196

> No! Some of us want to keep using DVD and not be pushed away

In which sense would it push you away.

I'm not suggesting any change to the ISO files themselves.
Only changes to the doc to clarify that these are images that are
expected to be used on USB flash dirves (and they also work on CD/DVD,
including virtual ones for VMs).

The intention is to avoid confusing those users who intuitively skip the
parts talking about CD/DVD images because they don't have a CD/DVD
reader/writer (or don't want to use it).


        Stefan

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#270222

On 6/17/24 7:44 PM, Thomas Dineen wrote:
> No! Some of us want to keep using DVD and not be pushed away

What he said.

Might I humbly suggest that this whole thread title is provocative, 
alarming, and maybe even a little inflamatory?

Some of us still prefer physical media, whether in the form of printed 
books, CDs, tapes, DVDs, vinyl, &c. Most of my computers have at least 
one drive capable of handling physical media, and most of those that 
don't can talk to my USB optical drive. And I regularly "sneakernet" 
files between two of them, on a Zip Disk. And my stereo system still has 
a CD drive, a CD-R drive, and a tape deck . . . but NOTHING that can 
deal with downloaded recordings unless burned onto physical media. And I 
LIKE IT THAT WAY.

I will note that when my previous DOSbook failed, I needed PC-DOS 2000 
on physical media in order to do the OS-install.

And I'll also note that at present, the Linux subsystem on my Chromebook 
is, in a word, hosed, and I blame that on unasked-for "updates" (of 
dubious value at best) being foisted upon me.

--
JHHL

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#270223

JHHL writes:
> Some of us still prefer physical media

Do you mean read-only media?  All media are physical.
-- 
John Hasler 
john@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#270225

On 6/18/24 10:01 AM, John Hasler wrote:
> JHHL writes:
>> Some of us still prefer physical media
> 
> Do you mean read-only media?  All media are physical.

No, I mean physical media as opposed to downloads.

Application software, I've resigned myself to downloads, although as I 
said, I am not happy with software that installs updates of dubious 
value without so much as a how-do-you-do.

Even operating systems, when there is no other choice available.

But I prefer my books to be in a form made from an eminently sustainable 
and recyclable resource, a form requiring (at least for the sighted) no 
auxiliary hardware other than maybe a pair of reading glasses (which I 
now need even to read screens). A form that can also be adapted to those 
who read with their fingertips. A form that a publisher cannot yank away 
from those who paid good money.

As for recorded music and audiovisual content, I again prefer something 
that cannot be taken away without physically carrying it off. And I have 
the additional objection here that the most common digital music formats 
use lossy compression. *VERY* lossy compression. And I find it 
thoroughly laughable when vinyl-snobs listen to homemade MP3 dubs of 
their records (surface noise, compression artifacts, and all).

But this is veering far off-topic. My previous message was mainly to 
point out that the thread title can scare the <censored> out of people, 
and seems to have very little to do with what the thread is actually 
*about,* i.e., it appears to be about delivery forms other than optical 
or magnetic media for OS and application software, and compatibility of 
disk-images with those forms. Not about *getting rid of* optical media 
(or magnetic media, for that matter).

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#270204

Hello ^^)

Le 18/06/2024 à 03:00, Stefan Monnier a écrit :
>> Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
>> versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
>> download?  Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
>> will happen?
> 
> AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
> a USB flash drive.  So I think the question is whether it's time to
> change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
> onto optical media.
> 
Just a question : why should we ditch the cd or dvd just because some 
guys said that's it was obsolete or inferior to the usb keys et al ?

Memory keys (and ssd and downlodable audio and ...) all have still a 
major flaw in regard to hard stuff like CD dvd or real hard disks, and 
it's their 'volatility'.

these memory devices just dies on us with their contents (our valuable 
or paid for datas, way more often than a hard disk or cd dvd stuff.

and I don't think this will change soon, not where we are now in technology.

btw, the industry pushes forward a total abandon of hard copy of the 
stuff we buy with good money, only to ensure that we would buy it again 
if it was to disapear 'magically' and the buying contract says so in one 
form or another...
Remember the 'robbery' that has occured when buyers of electronic books 
found a day that some of their bought books had vanished from their 
readers devices 'cause the reseller contract had been broke by the 
publisher of the books with some merchants ?

That will be impossible with a real book, or cd, dvd, physical bought 
software. (well if your house doesn't catch a fire at least ;))

industry does not want you to own what you pay for in hard form. as well 
as banks are pushing to the abandon of physical money (notes or coins) 
to have even more control of your hard won money and have you dancing in 
their hands...

sorry if it's OT, but just think to all this by yourselves. ^^)

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#270215

>>> Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
>>> versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
>>> download?  Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
>>> will happen?
>> AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
>> a USB flash drive.  So I think the question is whether it's time to
>> change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
>> onto optical media.
> Just a question : why should we ditch the cd or dvd just because some guys
> said that's it was obsolete or inferior to the usb keys et al ?

AFAICT nobody in this thread suggested to ditch CD or DVD.
Can we stick to the actual discussion, please?


        Stefan

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#270197

Am 18.06.2024 um 02:44:46 Uhr schrieb Vitold S:

> More and more I see that people usually use USB flash drives everyday
> and some large companies (like Microsoft) today provide an image with
> a USB stick.

Most new computers don't have an optical disc drive, customers don't
request it and if they want one, they can buy one and add it.
USB is available every time, thumb disks with 16 GB are available at
the supermarket and can be used for many purposes.

> Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
> versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
> download? Do you think the time has come? When do you think this
> moment will happen?

The images provided are hybrid, they can be used on CD/DVD (if the
image is small enough, e.g. netinstall) or USB thumb disks.
Just write it there using dd.

-- 
Gruß
Marco

Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1718671486muell@cartoonies.org

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#270198

Marco Moock wrote:
> Most new computers don't have an optical disc drive, customers don't
> request it and if they want one, they can buy one and add it.

I've an optical disc drive with USB connection. I can easily move it to my new / next computer, when I upgrade, and don't need a place in the computer.

I'm still using DVDs to generate bootable Debian discs and install with them my next computer, or use it for the rescue system (rarely).

Best regards,
	Klaus.
-- 
Klaus Singvogel
GnuPG-Key-ID: 1024R/5068792D  1994-06-27

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#270206

On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 02:44:46 +0300
Vitold S <vit1251@gmail.com> wrote:


> 
> Again, forgive me if I don’t know some of the important details and
> difficulties of booting modern PCs via UEFI or some other feature more
> conveniently solved in the CD/DVD format. Then just tell me about it,
> I'll read it.
> 
No, no problems booting UEFI from USB stick. I need to do that to get
back to grub every time I boot Windows on my netbook, which isn't very
often.

-- 
Joe

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#270207

Am 18.06.2024 um 10:51:38 Uhr schrieb Joe:

> No, no problems booting UEFI from USB stick. I need to do that to get
> back to grub every time I boot Windows on my netbook, which isn't very
> often.

You should be able to change the boot order in the UEFI setup or inside
of Windows.

-- 
Gruß
Marco

Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1718700698muell@cartoonies.org

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