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"Repeaters", etc.

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  "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-27 23:10 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. eben@gmx.us - 2024-05-27 23:40 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-05-27 23:40 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-28 01:10 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-05-28 01:10 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2024-05-28 02:00 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 05:20 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 20:50 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-05-28 01:10 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-05-28 01:20 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-05-28 13:40 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-05-28 13:40 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-05-28 14:20 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-05-29 22:30 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-05-28 19:20 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Michael Grant <mgrant@grant.org> - 2024-05-28 19:30 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-05-28 19:40 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 20:00 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-05-29 02:50 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-29 17:10 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-12 19:30 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 20:00 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. "rtnetzlof@windstream.net" <rtnetzlof@windstream.net> - 2024-05-28 20:30 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. eben@gmx.us - 2024-05-28 21:30 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-28 21:50 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 23:50 +0200
                Re[2]: "Repeaters", etc. "Michael Grant" <mgrant@grant.org> - 2024-05-29 00:20 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2024-05-28 21:30 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-28 21:50 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-29 01:40 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-05-29 02:20 +0200
                    Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-29 08:40 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-05-29 23:00 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-05-28 19:40 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 20:10 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-05-29 12:30 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 23:00 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 04:00 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 04:10 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-05-28 04:50 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 05:20 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 08:30 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Michael Grant <mgrant@grant.org> - 2024-05-28 10:50 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 13:50 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-05-28 14:40 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 16:30 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-05-28 18:30 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2024-05-28 17:20 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 eben@gmx.us - 2024-05-28 17:40 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 20:10 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 eben@gmx.us - 2024-05-28 21:20 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2024-05-29 16:40 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-05-29 18:30 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 06:10 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 07:00 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-28 08:20 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-05-28 07:30 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-28 08:10 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Roger Price <roger@rogerprice.org> - 2024-05-28 10:00 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-29 00:50 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Roger Price <roger@rogerprice.org> - 2024-05-29 13:00 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-29 22:50 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. Roger Price <roger@rogerprice.org> - 2024-05-30 12:40 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-30 13:20 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-31 01:30 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Jessica Litwin <jessica@litw.in> - 2024-05-29 12:50 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-29 13:30 +0200

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#269618 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 12:43:14PM +1000, George at Clug wrote:

> 
> 
> On Tuesday, 28-05-2024 at 12:05 Paul M Foster wrote:
> > On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 05:09:02PM -0400, Paul M Foster wrote:
> > 
> > > Folks:
> > > 
> > > At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired
> > > for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local
> > > internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My
> > > idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
> > > router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would
> > > have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via
> > > cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
> > > 
> > > I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can
> > > anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate
> > > it.
> > > 
> > 
> > I did some more research, and it looks like I must have misstated the
> > problem.
> > 
> > Let's assume I can't get in the attic and wire the place. Let's assume that
> > I've got a wireless router/modem in, say, the garage. Let's say I have
> > three rooms with devices I want to connect (one way or another) to my
> > router/modem.
> > 
> > It appears there are two solutions. One is wifi extenders, and one is a
> > mesh network. In both cases, the device sits in the room and communicates
> > via wifi to the modem/router. The devices in the room connect to the device
> > via ethernet cable.
> > 
> > How does that sound? Any dissenting opinions? Any brand recommendations?
> > 
> >
> Paul,
> 

> My sister's house has a raked roof (i.e. no cavity), and sits on a
> concrete slab. Without removing sheets of iron from the roof there was no
> simple answer for running a Ethernet cable.
> 
> One suggestion given to us was to run Ethernet cable in conduit on the
> outside of house. Not an elegant solution.
> 
> How many rooms you want to have computers in?  The more rooms you have
> could increase complexity of your solution.
> 
> What we ended up using was Mesh system. As a proof of concept I used two
> FRITZ!Box 7490 as I own two of these devices, and very much like them.
> One FRITZ!Box 7490 was used as the router/modem, the other as the
> repeater (this modem has dual features). This worked quite well.
> Fortunately my sister does not play first person shooter games as I
> believe Mesh systems slightly increase network latency.
> https://avm.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Global/Produkte/FRITZBox/7490/Special_en/7490_special_en.html
> 
> We found that walls are too good at soaking up Wifi signals. The
> distances between modems and computers was the main challenge.
> 
> If you had the money, I would get a cable installer to do a proper job of
> running cables. I used to be an Electrician, hence I am familiar with
> running wires, so in my own home I ran Ethernet cable where ever needed
> (and we have a cavity ceiling). I am guessing this option is not possible
> for your situation.

Coincidentally, I used to be an electrician too, but we almost never ran
low voltage except for doorbells.

The house in question appears to have a generous attic, but they've blown
in two feet of insulation I'd rather not disturb. And that much insulation
makes the headers of walls very hard to find. Also, I'm not in my 20s
anymore, and crawling around in attics is difficult.

In the house I'm living in now, I did go into the attic years ago with cat
5e and wired up the living room.

FWIW, in the house we're buying, I need internet (wired) in the living
room, bedroom 2 and bedroom 4. Also, it's concrete block construction
(outer walls).

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

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#269625 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 2:18 AM Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 12:43:14PM +1000, George at Clug wrote:
> [...]
> > If you had the money, I would get a cable installer to do a proper job of
> > running cables. I used to be an Electrician, hence I am familiar with
> > running wires, so in my own home I ran Ethernet cable where ever needed
> > (and we have a cavity ceiling). I am guessing this option is not possible
> > for your situation.
>
> Coincidentally, I used to be an electrician too, but we almost never ran
> low voltage except for doorbells.
>
> The house in question appears to have a generous attic, but they've blown
> in two feet of insulation I'd rather not disturb. And that much insulation
> makes the headers of walls very hard to find. Also, I'm not in my 20s
> anymore, and crawling around in attics is difficult.
>
> In the house I'm living in now, I did go into the attic years ago with cat
> 5e and wired up the living room.
>
> FWIW, in the house we're buying, I need internet (wired) in the living
> room, bedroom 2 and bedroom 4. Also, it's concrete block construction
> (outer walls).

You can also run cat5 or cat6 (or rg-6) behind baseboards:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2reLFKCNf4>.

Jeff

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#269628 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

When you say your provider wants to provide you a "wireless router",
are you implying that you do not have any physically wired
high-speed internet to this property.  As in, the old copper either isn't
good enough for decent internet and no fibre yet, no cable modem either?

I read your original post thinking you might be thinking of
"extending" the reach of the "wifi" (which is probably isn't, it's
probably 4G or 5G in this case) to your rooms.  That's not what you
do, you don't extend that signal.

Some providers can provide now a box which has a SIM card in it and
talks to the provider over 4G/5G cellular.  On the inside of the
house, they provide a wifi access, just like most other providers.
Also, most of these routers have an ethernet port on the back so you
can, if you like, plug in an ethernet switch or another wifi router
(netgear or TPlink or whatever).

To be clear, the wifi is the part that is at your property.  There are
some providers termed WISPs (wireless internet service providers) that
use wifi (not 4G/5G) to connect you to the internet.  Just being clear
here that even if they do this, we're not talking about extending that
wifi signal.  That signal (whether it's really wifi or 4G or 5G or
even adsl or fibre or cable), it gets terminated at or just before
your router in your house.  So I'm not talking about that side of your
connection at all.

So if I understand properly, you have some devices around your home
that don't have built-in wifi and you are not going to string ethernet
to them.  In this case, what I would do would be to consider some
ethernet-over-powerline (e.g. https://www.tp-link.com/us/powerline/).
In this case, you'd plug the ethernet on the provided router, and then
you would put one (or more) of these devices around the house in the
other rooms and they basically function as an ethernet switch.

Another solution is a wifi device that functions in "client mode" and
gives you an ethernet port.  Essentially a device that functions as a
wifi router in reverse in that the wifi part (WAN) connects to your in
home wifi network and you plug devices into it on the ethernet ports
(LAN ports).  Some wifi routers can be configured this way, especially
older ones.  I have used the older ubiquiti eqiupment like this a lot.
The newer ubiquiti stuff though looks to be more geared towards
offices and hotels, probably way overkill for what you need.  However,
I did find a TP-link product, the "TP-Link AC750 Dual Band Wi-Fi
Travel Router" which seems to do this out of the box along with many
other tricks.  There are many other products out there.  Many of these
devices can also act as wifi repeaters or extenders too.

There are some other technical considerations like whether you care if
NAT is running on this little box or not, but for something like a
television in another room, you probably don't have to care.  NAT
isn't a consideration with the ethernet over power, they thankfully
don't do that.

Me personally, like others on this list, I'd try to find a way to get
an ethernet cable to the other rooms, but in some cases, this just
isn't practical.  I have an ethernet cable up the wall outside my
house and over the top of the roof, not in a conduit!  Been like that
for more than a decade.  But it rarely freezes here.  Your
mileage/kilometerage may vary!

Michael Grant

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#269635 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 04:43:38AM -0400, Michael Grant wrote:

> When you say your provider wants to provide you a "wireless router",
> are you implying that you do not have any physically wired
> high-speed internet to this property.  As in, the old copper either isn't
> good enough for decent internet and no fibre yet, no cable modem either?

We've lived in this house for 20 years, and in that time, every internet
provider we've had has provided us with a router and/or modem which has
RJ45 jacks and a wifi signal. In this location, we've either had cable,
fiber or satellite internet. From the router/modem, we have wired
connections to the areas we have computers and cable boxes. Our phones use
the wifi aspect of the modem/router.

We're moving across the state, and from what I've seen, providers there
will do something similar-- provide a router and/or modem which has wired
and wireless capabilities. However, because the house is not prewired for
internet, we must solve the problem of getting internet to the computers
and devices in the house. I'm not a fan of wifi, versus hard-wired
internet. It's not as reliable, and it's slower. Thus, I want cat 5/6 to my
devices. I could possibly wire the house with cat 5/6 through the attic,
but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it
seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up
the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.

> 
> I read your original post thinking you might be thinking of
> "extending" the reach of the "wifi" (which is probably isn't, it's
> probably 4G or 5G in this case) to your rooms.  That's not what you
> do, you don't extend that signal.
> 
> Some providers can provide now a box which has a SIM card in it and
> talks to the provider over 4G/5G cellular.  On the inside of the
> house, they provide a wifi access, just like most other providers.
> Also, most of these routers have an ethernet port on the back so you
> can, if you like, plug in an ethernet switch or another wifi router
> (netgear or TPlink or whatever).
> 
> To be clear, the wifi is the part that is at your property.  There are
> some providers termed WISPs (wireless internet service providers) that
> use wifi (not 4G/5G) to connect you to the internet.  Just being clear
> here that even if they do this, we're not talking about extending that
> wifi signal.  That signal (whether it's really wifi or 4G or 5G or
> even adsl or fibre or cable), it gets terminated at or just before
> your router in your house.  So I'm not talking about that side of your
> connection at all.

I've heard of 5G internet providers, but I'd rather avoid them. There's
only one of those in the area we're moving to.

> 
> So if I understand properly, you have some devices around your home
> that don't have built-in wifi and you are not going to string ethernet
> to them.  

To the contrary, I *do* plan to string cat 5/6 to those devices, just not
all the way to the modem/router, which will likely be in the garage.

> In this case, what I would do would be to consider some
> ethernet-over-powerline (e.g. https://www.tp-link.com/us/powerline/).
> In this case, you'd plug the ethernet on the provided router, and then
> you would put one (or more) of these devices around the house in the
> other rooms and they basically function as an ethernet switch.
> 
> Another solution is a wifi device that functions in "client mode" and
> gives you an ethernet port.  Essentially a device that functions as a
> wifi router in reverse in that the wifi part (WAN) connects to your in
> home wifi network and you plug devices into it on the ethernet ports
> (LAN ports).  Some wifi routers can be configured this way, especially
> older ones.  I have used the older ubiquiti eqiupment like this a lot.
> The newer ubiquiti stuff though looks to be more geared towards
> offices and hotels, probably way overkill for what you need.  However,
> I did find a TP-link product, the "TP-Link AC750 Dual Band Wi-Fi
> Travel Router" which seems to do this out of the box along with many
> other tricks.  There are many other products out there.  Many of these
> devices can also act as wifi repeaters or extenders too.
> 
> There are some other technical considerations like whether you care if
> NAT is running on this little box or not, but for something like a
> television in another room, you probably don't have to care.  NAT
> isn't a consideration with the ethernet over power, they thankfully
> don't do that.
> 
> Me personally, like others on this list, I'd try to find a way to get
> an ethernet cable to the other rooms, but in some cases, this just
> isn't practical.  I have an ethernet cable up the wall outside my
> house and over the top of the roof, not in a conduit!  Been like that
> for more than a decade.  But it rarely freezes here.  Your
> mileage/kilometerage may vary!
> 
> Michael Grant
> 



-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

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#269638 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

Paul M Foster wrote: 
> We're moving across the state, and from what I've seen, providers there
> will do something similar-- provide a router and/or modem which has wired
> and wireless capabilities. However, because the house is not prewired for
> internet, we must solve the problem of getting internet to the computers
> and devices in the house. I'm not a fan of wifi, versus hard-wired
> internet. It's not as reliable, and it's slower. Thus, I want cat 5/6 to my
> devices. I could possibly wire the house with cat 5/6 through the attic,
> but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it
> seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up
> the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.

Concrete blocks wifi very effectively. Are any of your internal,
load-bearing walls concrete?

> To the contrary, I *do* plan to string cat 5/6 to those devices, just not
> all the way to the modem/router, which will likely be in the garage.

The devices wired together in a single room will do well. They
will have issues talking across rooms, as every round-trip will
feature four wifi hops (room router to gateway, gateway to room
router, and then back again).

You're spending the money on a house, which is $LARGESUM. Spend
the comparatively small amount of extra money on some form of
wiring before you move in, so you don't end up frustrated for
two years before doing it anyway and also having to move
furniture, listen to concrete drilling, and so forth.

-dsr-

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#269644 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 08:15:36AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:

> Paul M Foster wrote: 
> > We're moving across the state, and from what I've seen, providers there
> > will do something similar-- provide a router and/or modem which has wired
> > and wireless capabilities. However, because the house is not prewired for
> > internet, we must solve the problem of getting internet to the computers
> > and devices in the house. I'm not a fan of wifi, versus hard-wired
> > internet. It's not as reliable, and it's slower. Thus, I want cat 5/6 to my
> > devices. I could possibly wire the house with cat 5/6 through the attic,
> > but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it
> > seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up
> > the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
> 
> Concrete blocks wifi very effectively. Are any of your internal,
> load-bearing walls concrete?

Highly doubtful. The house is rectangular, so I'm guessing only the outside
walls are block (this is hurricane country). It wouldn't be cost effective
to use block on the interior of the house.

> 
> > To the contrary, I *do* plan to string cat 5/6 to those devices, just not
> > all the way to the modem/router, which will likely be in the garage.
> 
> The devices wired together in a single room will do well. They
> will have issues talking across rooms, as every round-trip will
> feature four wifi hops (room router to gateway, gateway to room
> router, and then back again).
> 
> You're spending the money on a house, which is $LARGESUM. Spend
> the comparatively small amount of extra money on some form of
> wiring before you move in, so you don't end up frustrated for
> two years before doing it anyway and also having to move
> furniture, listen to concrete drilling, and so forth.

I wonder if I can get an electrical company to put in cat 5? Might be worth
it. The prospect of getting up in the attic and running cat 5 myself just
doesn't appeal to me.

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

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#269648 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

Paul M Foster wrote: 
> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 08:15:36AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
> > You're spending the money on a house, which is $LARGESUM. Spend
> > the comparatively small amount of extra money on some form of
> > wiring before you move in, so you don't end up frustrated for
> > two years before doing it anyway and also having to move
> > furniture, listen to concrete drilling, and so forth.
> 
> I wonder if I can get an electrical company to put in cat 5? Might be worth
> it. The prospect of getting up in the attic and running cat 5 myself just
> doesn't appeal to me.

Yes, absolutely. Anyone who does low-voltage work probably has
lots of experience doing this. Call or email local electrician
companies and tell them exactly what you want; they'll send
someone over to evaluate the work and give you an estimate.

-dsr-

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#269646 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

On 2024-05-28, Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> wrote:
> but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it
> seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up
> the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
>

I don't see why that would be more reliable than just using the wifi
signal without any intermediary. It's only better wired when you're
directly connected to the source router, I should think.

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#269647 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

On 5/28/24 11:13, Curt wrote:
> On 2024-05-28, Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> wrote:
>> but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it
>> seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up
>> the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
>>
>
> I don't see why that would be more reliable than just using the wifi
> signal without any intermediary. It's only better wired when you're
> directly connected to the source router, I should think.

That situation might cover many of the machines in a house, I would think.
Certainly a room.

--
And the men who hold high places / Must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality / Closer to the heart

Rush, "Closer to the Heart", 1977

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#269661 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 03:13:26PM -0000, Curt wrote:

> On 2024-05-28, Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> wrote:
> > but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it
> > seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up
> > the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
> >
> 
> I don't see why that would be more reliable than just using the wifi
> signal without any intermediary. It's only better wired when you're
> directly connected to the source router, I should think.
> 

I don't know that it would be more *reliable*, but I have a number of
devices which don't have wifi capability, like my desktop computer.

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

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#269668 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

On 5/28/24 14:04, Paul M Foster wrote:
> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 03:13:26PM -0000, Curt wrote:
>
>> On 2024-05-28, Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> wrote:
>>> but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it
>>> seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up
>>> the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
>>>
>>
>> I don't see why that would be more reliable than just using the wifi
>> signal without any intermediary. It's only better wired when you're
>> directly connected to the source router, I should think.
>>
>
> I don't know that it would be more *reliable*, but I have a number of
> devices which don't have wifi capability, like my desktop computer.

If you have to buy hardware to provide wired access, it might be more
expensive than a wifi card.  But, there may be reasons wifi is unusable --
antique or very small hardware, or even just personal preference.

--
      If you need someone to blame
      Throw a rock in the air
      You'll hit someone guilty -- U2, _Zooropa_, "Dirty Day"

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#269693 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

On 2024-05-28, Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 03:13:26PM -0000, Curt wrote:
>
>> On 2024-05-28, Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> wrote:
>> > but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it
>> > seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up
>> > the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
>> >
>> 
>> I don't see why that would be more reliable than just using the wifi
>> signal without any intermediary. It's only better wired when you're
>> directly connected to the source router, I should think.
>> 
>
> I don't know that it would be more *reliable*, but I have a number of
> devices which don't have wifi capability, like my desktop computer.

I see.

> Paul
>

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#269700 — Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 10:43 AM Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 04:43:38AM -0400, Michael Grant wrote:
>[...]
> > To be clear, the wifi is the part that is at your property.  There are
> > some providers termed WISPs (wireless internet service providers) that
> > use wifi (not 4G/5G) to connect you to the internet.  Just being clear
> > here that even if they do this, we're not talking about extending that
> > wifi signal.  That signal (whether it's really wifi or 4G or 5G or
> > even adsl or fibre or cable), it gets terminated at or just before
> > your router in your house.  So I'm not talking about that side of your
> > connection at all.
>
> I've heard of 5G internet providers, but I'd rather avoid them. There's
> only one of those in the area we're moving to.

You also have Starlink if you are too rural to get traditional
broadband service. Starlink sends you the satellite dish and the wifi
router. Also see <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmgwkKgZaGk>.

Amazon is getting ready to launch satellites for Project Kuiper, which
will compete with Starlink.

> > So if I understand properly, you have some devices around your home
> > that don't have built-in wifi and you are not going to string ethernet
> > to them.
>
> To the contrary, I *do* plan to string cat 5/6 to those devices, just not
> all the way to the modem/router, which will likely be in the garage.

This is probably a mistake. You want "home runs" back to the router or
modem. Since you only need two wireless base stations, take the time
to pull the drops for ethernet backhauls. Or hire someone to do it.
(Your on-prem cable service is most likely already pulled this way).

If you use wireless backhauls, then that robs you of bandwidth for
device data since it is being used for the backhaul.

And one other comment based on my experience... don't use the service
providers wifi modem. Disable the wifi in the service provider's modem
or router, and use two base stations that you purchase. The base
stations that you purchase will perform much better, and give you
better coverage on your site.

Jeff

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#269619

On 28/05/2024 10:05 am, Paul M Foster wrote:
> It appears there are two solutions. One is wifi extenders, and one is a
> mesh network. In both cases, the device sits in the room and communicates
> via wifi to the modem/router. The devices in the room connect to the device
> via ethernet cable.
>
> How does that sound? Any dissenting opinions? Any brand recommendations?

I think you will likely be disappointed by that plan. Mesh networks and 
WiFi extenders don't usually work well, especially WiFi extenders.

A better plan is to install a POE switch at your router location and run 
cat 5 cable into the ceiling to 3 or 4 locations and put in a POE 
powered wifi access point in the ceiling at each point.

TP-Link sell a range of prosumer and business access points that would 
help. You can also use the POE switch but put in a POE extractor to 
power a non POE access point.

Personally I use TP-Link components and they seem reliable enough if 
lacking a bit in features you can use

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#269621

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 12:11:32PM +0800, jeremy ardley wrote:

> 
> On 28/05/2024 10:05 am, Paul M Foster wrote:
> > It appears there are two solutions. One is wifi extenders, and one is a
> > mesh network. In both cases, the device sits in the room and communicates
> > via wifi to the modem/router. The devices in the room connect to the device
> > via ethernet cable.
> > 
> > How does that sound? Any dissenting opinions? Any brand recommendations?
> 
> I think you will likely be disappointed by that plan. Mesh networks and WiFi
> extenders don't usually work well, especially WiFi extenders.
> 
> A better plan is to install a POE switch at your router location and run cat
> 5 cable into the ceiling to 3 or 4 locations and put in a POE powered wifi
> access point in the ceiling at each point.

Well, if I'm gonna run cat 5, I might as well just put a jack in each room.
No POE needed. The only reason for wifi at all in this case is so I don't
*have* to run cat 5.

> TP-Link sell a range of prosumer and business access points that would help.
> You can also use the POE switch but put in a POE extractor to power a non
> POE access point.
> 
> Personally I use TP-Link components and they seem reliable enough if lacking
> a bit in features you can use
 
>From what I've read, TP-Link gets good reviews.

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

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#269624

On 5/27/24 19:05, Paul M Foster wrote:
> I did some more research, and it looks like I must have misstated the
> problem.
> 
> Let's assume I can't get in the attic and wire the place. Let's 
> assume that I've got a wireless router/modem in, say, the garage. 
> Let's say I have three rooms with devices I want to connect (one way 
> or another) to my router/modem.
> 
> It appears there are two solutions. One is wifi extenders, and one
> is a mesh network. In both cases, the device sits in the room and 
> communicates via wifi to the modem/router. The devices in the room 
> connect to the device via ethernet cable.
> 
> How does that sound? Any dissenting opinions? Any brand 
> recommendations?


On 5/27/24 20:14, Paul M Foster wrote:
> Coincidentally, I used to be an electrician too, but we almost never 
> ran low voltage except for doorbells.
> 
> The house in question appears to have a generous attic, but they've 
> blown in two feet of insulation I'd rather not disturb. And that
> much insulation makes the headers of walls very hard to find. Also,
> I'm not in my 20s anymore, and crawling around in attics is
> difficult.
> 
> In the house I'm living in now, I did go into the attic years ago 
> with cat 5e and wired up the living room.
> 
> FWIW, in the house we're buying, I need internet (wired) in the 
> living room, bedroom 2 and bedroom 4. Also, it's concrete block 
> construction (outer walls).


On 5/27/24 21:50, Paul M Foster wrote:
> Well, if I'm gonna run cat 5, I might as well just put a jack in each
> room.> No POE needed. The only reason for wifi at all in this case is
> so I don't *have*  to run cat 5.

> From what I've read, TP-Link gets good reviews.

FYI my previous coax cable suggestion will likely involve MoCA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_over_Coax_Alliance


Another idea is power-line communication.  I seem to recall reading that 
an RF choke should be installed on the incoming electrical service to 
prevent interference to/from the neighbors, but STFW I do not see any 
mention of that today:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerline_Ethernet


David

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#269622

Am 27.05.2024 um 17:09:02 Uhr schrieb Paul M Foster:

> At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not
> wired for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The
> local internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as
> they all do. My idea is to put a device which receives wireless
> signal from the router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each
> room. So each room would have one of these, and the devices in it
> would be hooked to that device via cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
> 
> I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's
> called. Can anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand
> names? I'd appreciate it.

Some repeaters have exactly that feature.

Although, I don't recommend that, the bandwidth won't reach 1GBit/s
that Cat5e can easily do and maybe the signal will be that bad that it
doesn't work at all.


-- 
Gruß
Marco

Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1716822542muell@cartoonies.org

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#269623

On 5/27/24 17:09, Paul M Foster wrote:
> Folks:
> 
> At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired
> for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local
> internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My
> idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
> router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would
> have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via
> cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
> 
> I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can
> anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate
> it.
> 
> Paul

That is a step down from a router, and a step up from a "hub". Usually 
called a switch if it can handle a circuit per rj45 jack. Managed 
usually cost a bit more but most managed switches can NAT between ipv4's 
254 addreeses to a different address.  I have such an 8 port switch in 
the room with all my 3d printers but I'm not using that feature.  It 
just works like a hub but noticeably faster.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269627

On Mon, 27 May 2024, Paul M Foster wrote:

> ... and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would
> have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via
> cat 5e.

I wired my place Cat5. A lot of work, and I regretted it.  I live in the hills 
behind Nice, an area with a lot of lightning.  The overhead line to my place 
took a hit and thanks to the Cat5 conductivity I lost equipment.  Now I have a 
Freebox 4k mini which has feeble WiFi so I run it as a bridge to a TP-link WiFi 
router, and I have a Yagi Wifi antenna for distant access.

The Yagi antenna attached to a TP-link TL-WN722N USB adapter will capture a 
domestic WiFi router at well over 200 meters.

Roger

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#269676

On 5/28/24 00:28, Roger Price wrote:
> I wired my place Cat5. A lot of work, and I regretted it.  I live in the 
> hills behind Nice, an area with a lot of lightning.  The overhead line 
> to my place took a hit and thanks to the Cat5 conductivity I lost 
> equipment.


If your electrical utility uses pole-mounted distribution lines, 
transformers, service drops, etc., and lightning strikes the 
high-voltage conductors, there will be a surge on the customer service 
conductors that places persons and property at risk.  If lightning jumps 
to the customer service conductors, then the risk to persons and 
property can be extreme.


How do you know that the damage your equipment suffered was due to the 
Cat 5e wiring and not due to the electrical power conductors?


David

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