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"Repeaters", etc.

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  "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-27 23:10 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. eben@gmx.us - 2024-05-27 23:40 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-05-27 23:40 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-28 01:10 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-05-28 01:10 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2024-05-28 02:00 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 05:20 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 20:50 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-05-28 01:10 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-05-28 01:20 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-05-28 13:40 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-05-28 13:40 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-05-28 14:20 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-05-29 22:30 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-05-28 19:20 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Michael Grant <mgrant@grant.org> - 2024-05-28 19:30 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-05-28 19:40 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 20:00 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-05-29 02:50 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-29 17:10 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-12 19:30 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 20:00 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. "rtnetzlof@windstream.net" <rtnetzlof@windstream.net> - 2024-05-28 20:30 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. eben@gmx.us - 2024-05-28 21:30 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-28 21:50 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 23:50 +0200
                Re[2]: "Repeaters", etc. "Michael Grant" <mgrant@grant.org> - 2024-05-29 00:20 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." <roy@rtellason.com> - 2024-05-28 21:30 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-28 21:50 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-29 01:40 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-05-29 02:20 +0200
                    Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-29 08:40 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-05-29 23:00 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-05-28 19:40 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 20:10 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-05-29 12:30 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 23:00 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 04:00 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 04:10 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-05-28 04:50 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 05:20 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 08:30 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Michael Grant <mgrant@grant.org> - 2024-05-28 10:50 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 13:50 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-05-28 14:40 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 16:30 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-05-28 18:30 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2024-05-28 17:20 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 eben@gmx.us - 2024-05-28 17:40 +0200
                Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 20:10 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 eben@gmx.us - 2024-05-28 21:20 +0200
                  Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2024-05-29 16:40 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. - FRITZ!Box 7490 Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-05-29 18:30 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> - 2024-05-28 06:10 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-28 07:00 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-28 08:20 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-05-28 07:30 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-28 08:10 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Roger Price <roger@rogerprice.org> - 2024-05-28 10:00 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-29 00:50 +0200
        Re: "Repeaters", etc. Roger Price <roger@rogerprice.org> - 2024-05-29 13:00 +0200
          Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-29 22:50 +0200
            Re: "Repeaters", etc. Roger Price <roger@rogerprice.org> - 2024-05-30 12:40 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-05-30 13:20 +0200
              Re: "Repeaters", etc. David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-05-31 01:30 +0200
    Re: "Repeaters", etc. Jessica Litwin <jessica@litw.in> - 2024-05-29 12:50 +0200
      Re: "Repeaters", etc. Paul M Foster <paulf@quillandmouse.com> - 2024-05-29 13:30 +0200

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#269602 — "Repeaters", etc.

Folks:

At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired
for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local
internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My
idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would
have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via
cat 5e. I hope that's clear.

I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can
anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate
it.

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

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#269603

On 5/27/24 17:09, Paul M Foster wrote:

> The local
> internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My
> idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
> router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would
> have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via
> cat 5e. I hope that's clear.

To provide wired internet to a shed which could only get wifi from the
house, I installed DD-WRT on a $35 router.  Such functionality may be in the
stock firmware these days, but probably not on the cheaper devices.

Besides being accessible by wired-only devices, that configuration really
has few of the advantages enjoyed by wired devices over wifi ones.

--
"Hear Me, for I am The Lord. I have seen your browser history, and am
wroth before it. Thus I shall strike down from the heavens a mighty blast,
and lo, [thou] shalt no longer have access to the naughty pictures."
sudo sudo The Book of Support, Chap 404 -- Osiris32 on TFTS

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#269604

On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 05:09:02PM -0400, Paul M Foster wrote:
> (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?)

Because to the average person, "Internet access" equals "wifi".  They
use the terms interchangeably.

Also, some recent model laptops no longer have an ethernet port.  If you
want to connect to a physical network, you need to buy a USB ethernet
adapter.

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#269606

On 5/27/24 14:09, Paul M Foster wrote:
> Folks:
> 
> At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired
> for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local
> internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My
> idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
> router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would
> have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via
> cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
> 
> I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can
> anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate
> it.
> 
> Paul


Is the house wired for cable television (RG-6 coaxial cable)?  If so, 
and you choose the right Internet provider, you might be able to get a 
"main box" with 1+ type F connectors, 4 @ RJ-45 Gigabit ports,  Wi-Fi 
access point, etc., and "satellite boxes" with 1+ type F connector, 1+ 
RJ-45 Gigabit ports, Wi-Fi access point, etc..  Ask you cable 
television/ Internet provider.


An alternative to running Ethernet cables inside walls is to run the 
cables on the surface -- e.g. staple to wall along floor molding, drill 
and pull through walls as required, paint to match, etc..  Cat 5e is 
smaller diameter and easier to work with than Cat 6a.  I surface wired 
my house with Cat 5e ~20 years ago and have 1000BASE-T (Gigabit 
Ethernet) switches and NIC's.  All of the cable runs are under ~20 
meters, so I should be able to upgrade to 2.5GBASE-T.


David

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#269607

> I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called.

I think it's called a "wireless bridge".

Any device with a wifi card and (at least) an ethernet port can do that.
So "any" wifi router will do the trick, as long as you can get it to run
a firmware that's not hopelessly restricted.

I'd recommend you look at the routers supported by OpenWRT.

Of course, if you can do it with cables (ethernet/powerline/younameit)
it's probably going to work better, but I guess you know that already.


        Stefan

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#269611

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On Monday, May 27th, 2024 at 5:08 PM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:

> > I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called.
> 
> 
> I think it's called a "wireless bridge".

Yeah.  A Raspberry Pi'll do that.  Mine worked great.  It was several years ago (RPi3 era), so I don't remember just how I configured it.  But IIRC, there's something in the communication with the WiFi box where the RPi could ask for a specific IP.  Then the RPi created a 10.n.n.n/28 and fed it to a snappy Ethernet switch.  There may have been some iptables futzing involved too, but back then, the RPi's OS was much more Debian than my RPi5 is...

--
Glenn English

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#269617

On 28/05/2024 06:08, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> I think it's called a "wireless bridge".
> 
> Any device with a wifi card and (at least) an ethernet port can do that.

Features like MAC VLAN may be unavailable with *any* device. Some 
vendors offer it, but compatibility may be an issue in the case of 
devices from different vendors. I have not checked if OpenWRT may help 
to avoid complications.

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#269666

On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 7:08 PM Stefan Monnier wrote:
>
> > I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called.
>
> I think it's called a "wireless bridge".
>
> Any device with a wifi card and (at least) an ethernet port can do that.
> So "any" wifi router will do the trick, as long as you can get it to run
> a firmware that's not hopelessly restricted.
>
> I'd recommend you look at the routers supported by OpenWRT.

+1 for OpenWRT supported routers
supported devices are listed here
  https://openwrt.org/toh/start

If all you want is a wireless bridge you can probably get by with a
woefully underpowered router.  Put the wan and lan ports on vlan 1 so
there's no router or firewall involved and disable dns, dhcp, etc. so
it's just ethernet <=> wifi

I've got a pair of TP-Link Archer C7s that are now out of production
but cost about $55 when new that do a great job with everything on
vlan 1.

> Of course, if you can do it with cables (ethernet/powerline/younameit)
> it's probably going to work better, but I guess you know that already.

+1 again - cables are better.  Even with a house you're most probably
going to get some interference from the houses around you :(

Regards,
Lee

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#269608

Paul M Foster wrote: 
> At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired
> for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local
> internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My
> idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
> router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would
> have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via
> cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
> 
> I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can
> anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate
> it.

Those are wireless access points, but you don't plug anything
into the WAN port, just into the LAN ports, and you turn off
DHCP on each of them.

This is highly suboptimal, by the way. If you own this house,
you really want to run cat6 from each room to a central location
(attic, basement, room where wires enter your house) and put a
WAP in about half of the rooms and a simple switch in the other
half.

If you don't own the house, you might be surprised at what's
available to run cables along baseboards safely and
inexpensively, if more visibly.

-dsr-

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#269609

On Mon 27 May 2024 at 22:23:01 (+0100), Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Mon, 27 May 2024 17:09:02 -0400 > Paul M Foster wrote:
> 
> >for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local
> 
> Cost
> 
> Lack of understanding (in the building trade)

We didn't meet any lack of understanding. Rather, the problem is which
rooms do you connect, and precisely where do you place the wallplates.
In a domestic environment, you're not going to have trunking like in
an office, and you don't want trailing cables. I don't think it's
worth it for speculative housebuilders in the days of wifi.

Cheers,
David.

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#269633

Hello,

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 09:57:18AM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Mon, 27 May 2024 18:19:10 -0500
> David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> >We didn't meet any lack of understanding. Rather, the problem is which
> >rooms do you connect, and precisely where do you place the wallplates.
> 
> That's what I meant, really.   Christ, they can't even place power
> outlets sensibly in many instances.   :-(

I think if they put one wallplate next to each power outlet plate
and brought it all back to where the electricity meter is, as a
matter of course, then that would be quite useful to a lot of
people. I don't know that it would add enough value to cover the
cost of doing it, though.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#269634

Hi,

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 11:31:29AM +0100, mick.crane wrote:
> Is there not some system that runs ethernet over the mains wiring or did I
> misunderstand it.

It works extremely poorly, if at all. If wifi works you would prefer
wifi.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#269637

Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> writes:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 11:31:29AM +0100, mick.crane wrote:
>> Is there not some system that runs ethernet over the mains wiring or did I
>> misunderstand it.
>
> It works extremely poorly, if at all. If wifi works you would prefer
> wifi.
>

Do you mean homeplugs? I found they worked well. I can't see the post
you are replying to.

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#269708

Hi,

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 01:03:57PM +0100, Richmond wrote:
> Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> writes:
> > On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 11:31:29AM +0100, mick.crane wrote:
> >> Is there not some system that runs ethernet over the mains wiring or did I
> >> misunderstand it.
> >
> > It works extremely poorly, if at all.
> 
> Do you mean homeplugs? I found they worked well. I can't see the post
> you are replying to.

I quoted enough to answer your question:

>> Is there not some system that runs ethernet over the mains wiring

All of those devices work by the same principle, and if they work
well for you I think you are lucky,

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#269651

Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 May 2024 11:31:29 +0100
> "mick.crane" <mick.crane@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello mick.crane,
> 
> >Is there not some system that runs ethernet over the mains wiring or
> >did I misunderstand it.  
> 
> Yes, there is.  I believe you're thinking of powerline adaptors.  They
> do require everything be on the same circuit, however.

I have a powerline adapter (Devolo units). There's no such restriction,
as far as I know. My powerline transmitter and receiver are certainly
on different circuits.

> The way electrical wiring is done in the UK often means separate
> floors are on different circuits, and in larger properties, each
> floor might be on two (or more) circuits, making it difficult, at
> best, to get the whole building networked this way.  And that's
> assuming ring circuits, if everything is on a radial, you're stymied.

Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is
connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just fine.
If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail powerline units
designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to spread the signal
better over ALL the circuits.

If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then you
may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on the same
phase.

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#269654

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:11:48PM +0100, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is
> connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just fine.
> If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail powerline units
> designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to spread the signal
> better over ALL the circuits.
> 
> If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then you
> may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on the same
> phase.

In the US, most houses are wired with 240V split-phase giving 120V to
a mains outlet.  It's a 50/50 crapshot if you are on the same leg in a
different part of the house.  I don't know if some electricians like
to put all the mains outlets on the same leg or not.  I don't know if
these ethernet over power things will work over different legs.  The
legs share a neutral and ground, so maybe!  I'd be interested to know!

Similarrly, over 3-phase, I would suspect the same is true, 3
different legs around the property with a common neutral and common
ground.  

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#269655

Michael Grant <mgrant@grant.org> wrote:
> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:11:48PM +0100, debian-user@howorth.org.uk
> wrote:
> > Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is
> > connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just
> > fine. If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail
> > powerline units designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to
> > spread the signal better over ALL the circuits.
> > 
> > If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then
> > you may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on
> > the same phase.  
> 
> In the US, most houses are wired with 240V split-phase giving 120V to
> a mains outlet.  It's a 50/50 crapshot if you are on the same leg in a
> different part of the house.  I don't know if some electricians like
> to put all the mains outlets on the same leg or not.  I don't know if
> these ethernet over power things will work over different legs.  The
> legs share a neutral and ground, so maybe!  I'd be interested to know!
> 
> Similarrly, over 3-phase, I would suspect the same is true, 3
> different legs around the property with a common neutral and common
> ground.  

Yes, I was talking specifically about the UK in response to Brad, who
you elided. Powerline works between 'live' and 'neutral'. Earth is
strictly a safety earth, not involved in any circuitry. The distribution
of phases in a 3-phase installation varies quite a lot depending on the
peculiarities of the particular site. The main concern is to make it
impossible to easily mix phases (i.e. don't have sockets on one phase
near sockets on another phase). I gather the rules are somewhat
different in the US with split phase systems.

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#269659

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:37:35PM +0100, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:

> Michael Grant <mgrant@grant.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:11:48PM +0100, debian-user@howorth.org.uk
> > wrote:
> > > Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is
> > > connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just
> > > fine. If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail
> > > powerline units designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to
> > > spread the signal better over ALL the circuits.
> > > 
> > > If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then
> > > you may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on
> > > the same phase.  
> > 
> > In the US, most houses are wired with 240V split-phase giving 120V to
> > a mains outlet.  It's a 50/50 crapshot if you are on the same leg in a
> > different part of the house.  I don't know if some electricians like
> > to put all the mains outlets on the same leg or not.  I don't know if
> > these ethernet over power things will work over different legs.  The
> > legs share a neutral and ground, so maybe!  I'd be interested to know!
> > 
> > Similarrly, over 3-phase, I would suspect the same is true, 3
> > different legs around the property with a common neutral and common
> > ground.  
> 
> Yes, I was talking specifically about the UK in response to Brad, who
> you elided. Powerline works between 'live' and 'neutral'. Earth is
> strictly a safety earth, not involved in any circuitry. The distribution
> of phases in a 3-phase installation varies quite a lot depending on the
> peculiarities of the particular site. The main concern is to make it
> impossible to easily mix phases (i.e. don't have sockets on one phase
> near sockets on another phase). I gather the rules are somewhat
> different in the US with split phase systems.
> 

In the U.S. (as mentioned before), the voltage between "hots" is 240V, and
between "hot" and "neutral" on any phase is 120V. I'm not sure why our
systems were designed this way. But I do know that it is possible to have
circuits on both phases share a neutral. Thus, if the load on each phase is
the same, the neutral will carry no current. In any given room in a house,
it is entirely possible to have to receptacles which are on different
phases, and possibly sharing a neutral (though this isn't required).

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

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#269679

On Tue 28 May 2024 at 13:54:36 (-0400), Paul M Foster wrote:
> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:37:35PM +0100, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> > Michael Grant <mgrant@grant.org> wrote:
> > > On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:11:48PM +0100, debian-user@howorth.org.uk
> > > wrote:
> > > > Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is
> > > > connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just
> > > > fine. If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail
> > > > powerline units designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to
> > > > spread the signal better over ALL the circuits.
> > > > 
> > > > If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then
> > > > you may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on
> > > > the same phase.  

Most houses in the UK are on one phase. When there's a failure on only
one or two phases, you can walk down the street and work out which
houses could be on which by whose lights are still on.

I think that with solar generation and battery charging, that may be
changing. (I don't know as I don't live there.) But I think that
building regulations will still prevent you from having different
phases in different rooms. (Think of the problems when using
extension cables.)

Note that here I'm meaning true three-phase power, with each phase
at 120° to the others.

> In the U.S. (as mentioned before), the voltage between "hots" is 240V, and
> between "hot" and "neutral" on any phase is 120V. I'm not sure why our
> systems were designed this way.

You get supplied with a single phase (in the 120° sense above) split
into two. The split power is still on one phase, so the two hots are
at 180° to each other. This means you can run devices require 240V
between one hot and the other: they're easily recognised by their
huge outlets with wacky pin layouts when they're discrete devices, but
usually they're plumbed in. AC, (electric) water heaters and dryers,
ranges, etc.

> But I do know that it is possible to have
> circuits on both phases share a neutral. Thus, if the load on each phase is
> the same, the neutral will carry no current.

If you're using both splits for 240V, then the neutral should be
irrelevant. AIUI a current flowing through the neutral is what makes
the old-fashioned 3-pin devices potentially dangerous: with poor
earthing, the frame can become partially live (sometimes detectable
by passing the back of your hand over the metalwork).

> In any given room in a house,
> it is entirely possible to have to receptacles which are on different
> phases, and possibly sharing a neutral (though this isn't required).

Confusing terms, aren't they: they're a single-phase split, often
called legs, as below, to avoid that ambiguity.

On Tue 28 May 2024 at 13:20:19 (-0400), Michael Grant wrote:
> In the US, most houses are wired with 240V split-phase giving 120V to
> a mains outlet.  It's a 50/50 crapshot if you are on the same leg in a
> different part of the house.  I don't know if some electricians like
> to put all the mains outlets on the same leg or not.  I don't know if
> these ethernet over power things will work over different legs.  The
> legs share a neutral and ground, so maybe!  I'd be interested to know!

With Powerlines, I see no systematic difference in connection speed
between same leg and opposite legs. However, you do get some outlets
worse than the rest, but I can only surmise that the cause is noise,
possibly from computers etc, or perhaps the individual circuit
breakers. I've never tried to track it down, but it's something to
look out for.

I only ever expect to get 500Mbps because of having two different
generations of Powerline devices.

Cheers,
David.

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#269697

On 5/28/24 20:45, David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 28 May 2024 at 13:54:36 (-0400), Paul M Foster wrote:
>> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:37:35PM +0100, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:
>>> Michael Grant <mgrant@grant.org> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:11:48PM +0100, debian-user@howorth.org.uk
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is
>>>>> connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just
>>>>> fine. If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail
>>>>> powerline units designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to
>>>>> spread the signal better over ALL the circuits.
>>>>>
>>>>> If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then
>>>>> you may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on
>>>>> the same phase.
> 
> Most houses in the UK are on one phase. When there's a failure on only
> one or two phases, you can walk down the street and work out which
> houses could be on which by whose lights are still on.
> 
> I think that with solar generation and battery charging, that may be
> changing. (I don't know as I don't live there.) But I think that
> building regulations will still prevent you from having different
> phases in different rooms. (Think of the problems when using
> extension cables.)
> 
> Note that here I'm meaning true three-phase power, with each phase
> at 120° to the others.
> 
>> In the U.S. (as mentioned before), the voltage between "hots" is 240V, and
>> between "hot" and "neutral" on any phase is 120V. I'm not sure why our
>> systems were designed this way.
> 
> You get supplied with a single phase (in the 120° sense above) split
> into two. The split power is still on one phase, so the two hots are
> at 180° to each other. This means you can run devices require 240V
> between one hot and the other: they're easily recognised by their
> huge outlets with wacky pin layouts when they're discrete devices, but
> usually they're plumbed in. AC, (electric) water heaters and dryers,
> ranges, etc.
> 
>> But I do know that it is possible to have
>> circuits on both phases share a neutral. Thus, if the load on each phase is
>> the same, the neutral will carry no current.
> 
> If you're using both splits for 240V, then the neutral should be
> irrelevant. AIUI a current flowing through the neutral is what makes
> the old-fashioned 3-pin devices potentially dangerous: with poor
> earthing, the frame can become partially live (sometimes detectable
> by passing the back of your hand over the metalwork).
> 
>> In any given room in a house,
>> it is entirely possible to have to receptacles which are on different
>> phases, and possibly sharing a neutral (though this isn't required).

Except at the service. Properly wired, the neutral and static grounds 
are bonded ONLY in the service box. I am constantly amazed at the people 
who call themselves electricians, who think the static ground and the 
neutral are interchangeable just because they are bonded at the service.

I lost a couple phone modems bavk in the later years of the 1900's. When 
I build on a garage in 2008 I put a fresh 200 amp service in and made 
the house a subcircuit AND made sure my grounding was up to NEC specs, 
and that the static grounds to the round pins of the duplexes were 
indeed grounded ONLY at the new service.

WV, like most places, can put on quite an electrical show, but I've not 
damaged a piece of powered gear since. 16 years, no lightning damage. I 
even have a 70 foot run of cat5 from the house to a shed with some of my 
cnc gear in it, that has been blowing in the wind since I built that 
shed in the middle 90's.  Same piece of used cat5, now 30+ years old. 
Feeding a hub, feeding 2 computers, zero net problems as 2024 marches 
on.  The NEC is correct, now we just have to teach the electricians how 
to read it.
> 
> Confusing terms, aren't they: they're a single-phase split, often
> called legs, as below, to avoid that ambiguity.
> 
> On Tue 28 May 2024 at 13:20:19 (-0400), Michael Grant wrote:
>> In the US, most houses are wired with 240V split-phase giving 120V to
>> a mains outlet.  It's a 50/50 crapshot if you are on the same leg in a
>> different part of the house.  I don't know if some electricians like
>> to put all the mains outlets on the same leg or not.  I don't know if
>> these ethernet over power things will work over different legs.  The
>> legs share a neutral and ground, so maybe!  I'd be interested to know!
> 
> With Powerlines, I see no systematic difference in connection speed
> between same leg and opposite legs. However, you do get some outlets
> worse than the rest, but I can only surmise that the cause is noise,
> possibly from computers etc, or perhaps the individual circuit
> breakers. I've never tried to track it down, but it's something to
> look out for.

X10 did at one time sell a coupler, but because it couples a 255V 
circuit, potentially a huge fire hazard, is quite pricey. Even at the 
peak heyday of x10 stuff for household control, it priced itself out of 
a slot on the shelves at Lowes and Home Depot.  So most were never aware 
such a gizmo existed.

> I only ever expect to get 500Mbps because of having two different
> generations of Powerline devices.
> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> 
> .

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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