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what keyboard do you use?

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  what keyboard do you use? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 02:30 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Gremlin <scott-andrews@columbus.rr.com> - 2024-02-03 02:50 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Timothy M Butterworth <timothy.m.butterworth@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 04:00 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2024-02-03 03:00 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2024-02-03 03:10 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-02-03 08:40 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 15:40 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-04 11:30 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-02-04 17:30 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2024-02-04 18:40 +0100
          Re: what keyboard do you use? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-04 19:00 +0100
            Re: what keyboard do you use? Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2024-02-04 19:10 +0100
              Re: what keyboard do you use? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-04 19:30 +0100
                Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 12:40 +0100
                  Re: what keyboard do you use? "Loris Bennett" <loris.bennett@fu-berlin.de> - 2024-02-05 15:50 +0100
                    How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you  use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 21:10 +0100
                      Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) Ralph Aichinger <ra@h5.or.at> - 2024-02-05 21:40 +0100
                      Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-05 21:40 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 23:50 +0100
                          Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-02-06 12:30 +0100
                            Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 15:10 +0100
                      Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-05 22:10 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 00:20 +0100
                          Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-06 05:30 +0100
                            Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-02-06 05:50 +0100
                              Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-02-06 06:30 +0100
                                Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 06:40 +0100
                                  Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-02-06 15:20 +0100
                            Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 11:30 +0100
                              Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-07 04:50 +0100
                                Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-07 07:00 +0100
                                  Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-02-07 13:20 +0100
                                    Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-02-07 14:40 +0100
                                  Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-13 08:20 +0100
                                    Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-21 20:00 +0100
                                      Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-21 23:20 +0100
                                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-26 04:30 +0100
                          Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-06 10:20 +0100
                            Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 11:40 +0100
                              Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 11:50 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-02-06 04:20 +0100
                      Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) Brian Sammon <debian-users-list@brisammon.fastmail.fm> - 2024-02-06 07:40 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-02-06 13:10 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 14:00 +0100
                        solved: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard  do you use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 16:00 +0100
                      Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? "Loris Bennett" <loris.bennett@fu-berlin.de> - 2024-02-06 11:20 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2024-02-06 12:00 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 12:50 +0100
                          Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Ralph Aichinger <ra@h5.or.at> - 2024-02-06 13:30 +0100
                            Of German keycap translations [was: How can we change the keyboard  layout?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 13:40 +0100
                              Re: Of German keycap translations [was: How can we change the  keyboard layout?] hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 14:50 +0100
                            Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 14:40 +0100
                            [OT] (I guess) Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Michael Lange <klappnase@t-online.de> - 2024-02-07 00:00 +0100
                  Re: what keyboard do you use? Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-02-06 05:20 +0100
                    Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 12:10 +0100
                      Re: what keyboard do you use? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-02-06 13:20 +0100
            Re: what keyboard do you use? "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2024-02-05 18:10 +0100
          Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 12:30 +0100
            Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-05 15:10 +0100
              Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 21:50 +0100
                On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 06:40 +0100
                  Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?] hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 15:00 +0100
                    Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 15:10 +0100
                Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-06 15:10 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-04 18:40 +0100
          Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 12:10 +0100
            Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-05 15:10 +0100
              Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 20:40 +0100
                Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-06 15:10 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2024-02-03 05:00 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Ralph Aichinger <ra@h5.or.at> - 2024-02-03 05:00 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 16:00 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-02-03 05:50 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-03 06:20 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 07:00 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-03 13:30 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-02-03 13:40 +0100
          Re: what keyboard do you use? Jörg-Volker Peetz <jvpeetz@web.de> - 2024-02-03 15:50 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-02-03 06:50 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2024-02-05 17:50 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-02-03 08:40 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-03 15:50 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2024-02-03 14:50 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 15:20 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? "Russell L. Harris" <russell@rlharris.org> - 2024-02-03 17:20 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? Roger Price <debian@rogerprice.org> - 2024-02-03 18:40 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-04 12:20 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@debian-user.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2024-02-04 22:30 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Henrik Morsing <henrik@morsing.cc> - 2024-02-05 12:40 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-02-05 13:30 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Peter Ehlert <pb21a@sdi-baja.com> - 2024-02-05 16:20 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Ash Joubert <ash@transient.nz> - 2024-02-06 00:20 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? Peter Ehlert <pb21a@sdi-baja.com> - 2024-02-06 01:50 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2024-02-05 17:50 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 22:30 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2024-02-05 23:30 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-06 05:30 +0100

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#267021 — Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

On 06/02/2024 03:59, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> Pretty sure /etc/default/keyboard has been a thing on Debian for just
> about forever.

GNOME developers decided that they do not want to support all "bells and 
whistles" of XKB, e.g. layout switch using CapsLock and Shift+CapsLock. 
So some features configurable through /etc/default/keyboard are not 
available.

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#267034 — Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
hw <hw@adminart.net> wrote:

> Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?

I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a Chromebook, and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the A key, where you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for Emacs-Correctness.  I wanted a solution that would also work when I used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the A), and would work both in X and in console mode.

The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well, was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is managed by udev.  You can have different remappings for different keyboard models.

This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic, and somewhat poorly documented.  And it's an edit-the-configfile system; I'm not aware of any GUI config tools for it.

It took me over 2 hours to figure out and set up, after which I had a scrambled pile of notes (in a text file) but not the energy to clean them up.  The next time I do it I expect it'll take me about an hour (if the same process still applies) instead of the 15 minutes it would take if I did a proper job of documenting it for myself.

Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input
https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ (including some of the comments that contain more recent info)
https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa

Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were
/lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev)
/usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev package)

Gotchas include:
Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?)
Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?)
For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the same as the example/sample config files.
If you get this wrong, udev will just ignore the erroneous parts of your config file, (and you might think it just didn't see it) instead of giving an error message.

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#267058 — Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

Brian Sammon <debian-users-list@brisammon.fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
> hw <hw@adminart.net> wrote:
> 
> > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard
> > layout?  
> 
> I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a Chromebook,
> and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the A key, where
> you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for
> Emacs-Correctness.  I wanted a solution that would also work when I
> used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the
> A), and would work both in X and in console mode.
> 
> The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well,
> was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is
> managed by udev.  You can have different remappings for different
> keyboard models.
> 
> This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic,
> and somewhat poorly documented.  And it's an edit-the-configfile
> system; I'm not aware of any GUI config tools for it.
> 
> It took me over 2 hours to figure out and set up, after which I had a
> scrambled pile of notes (in a text file) but not the energy to clean
> them up.  The next time I do it I expect it'll take me about an hour
> (if the same process still applies) instead of the 15 minutes it
> would take if I did a proper job of documenting it for myself.
> 
> Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are:
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input
> https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/
> (including some of the comments that contain more recent info)
> https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa

Many, many thanks for this post Brian. Those links are truly excellent.

> Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were
> /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev)
> /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev
> package)
> 
> Gotchas include:
> Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?)
> Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?)
> For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the
> same as the example/sample config files. If you get this wrong, udev
> will just ignore the erroneous parts of your config file, (and you
> might think it just didn't see it) instead of giving an error message.
> 

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#267065 — Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
> hw <hw@adminart.net> wrote:
> 
> > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> 
> I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a
> Chromebook, and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the
> A key, where you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for
> Emacs-Correctness.  I wanted a solution that would also work when I
> used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the
> A), and would work both in X and in console mode.

Wow that's a very tall order!

> The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well,
> was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is
> managed by udev.  You can have different remappings for different
> keyboard models.
> 
> This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic,
> and somewhat poorly documented.

At least there is a way :)

Have you been able to find the predefined keyboard layouts that can be
selected through gnome (or KDE) settings somewhere?  I was thinking if
I could find those, I might be able to make a copy of one and then
modify it they way I need it.  Or is that approach not even feasible?

I think I rather don't want to change the scancode-to-keycode mapping
but would want to change the keycode-to-key mapping like it's done
with xmodmap.

> And it's an edit-the-configfile system; I'm not aware of any GUI
> config tools for it.

Well, I prefer that.

> Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are:
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input

Hmm, that gives me wev to start with, as the equivalent of xev.

Is wayland using this XKB thing?  When I run 'setxkbmap -print
-verbose 10' I'm getting 'WARNING: Running setxkbmap against an
Xwayland server'.  Does that mean we're not supposed to do that and/or
that we're not supposed to use XKB?

> https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ (including some of the comments that contain more recent info)
> https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa
> 
> Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were
> /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev)

That's an interesting file indeed!

So I want to change that I have to press Shift+` to get a tilde to not
having to press Shift.  I. e. the key is the first key on top row of
my keyboard and has ` and ~ on it, and I want to just press it and get
a tilde.

Wev says 'key: 49'.  That is 0x31 which doesn't show up in this file.
Now what?

> /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev package)

According to that, 49 is KEY_N and 'tilde' doesn't exist.

> Gotchas include:
> Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?)
> Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?)

Yeah it says something about that in the comments in 60-keyboard.hwdb.

> For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the
> same as the example/sample config files.

It seems to me that 60-keyboard.hwdb is intended to provide certain
keycodes --- i. e. symbols understood by the kernel since they seem to
show up in input-event-codes.h --- for a bunch of different keyboards.

That seems like the case Loris described with a laptop.  Perhaps he
would need to specify some (evdev) identifier for that particular
keyboard in 60-keyboard.hwdb, along with a mapping for the scancode
and the symbol --- and then somehow make a pull request or bug report
as described in the file.  Then these keys may end up working for
everyone with such a laptop.

> If you get this wrong, udev will just ignore the erroneous parts of
> your config file, (and you might think it just didn't see it)
> instead of giving an error message.

Hm, that's bad ...

Still I think this the wrong place to make changes for my case.  I
could try something with my keyboard, but I don't understand these
evdev designations in 60-keyboard.hwdb, so I won't even be able to
specify my keyboard to make settings for it.

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#267083 — solved: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
> hw <hw@adminart.net> wrote:
> 
> > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> 
> [...]
> https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa

So this allowed me to install keyd[1] and with a simple config like
below, I get the tilde without shift and the backtick with shift.
Seems like a pretty cool daemon which can do a lot more than that :)


[ids]
*

[main]
` = ~

[shift]
` = `


[1]: https://github.com/rvaiya/keyd/tree/master

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#267045 — Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

hw <hw@adminart.net> writes:

> On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 15:26 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote:
>> hw <hw@adminart.net> writes:
>> 
>> > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote:
>> > > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n0nb@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
>> > > > xmodmap trickery?  I am running GNOME on Wayland.
>> > > 
>> > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
>> > > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
>> > > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
>> > > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
>> > > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
>> > > localization experience.
>> > 
>> > We are stuck with it :(  Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better.
>> > 
>> > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
>> > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout ---
>> > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on
>> > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be
>> > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a
>> > German layout.
>> 
>> Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and
>> regularly switch between US and German layouts.  I just added the German
>> layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the
>> default shortcut of 'Super + space'.
>
> Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?
>
> We can only pick or add another of the available layouts, but we can't
> change them.  If I were using a German keyboard, I could pick a German
> layout, and it would be a good starting point --- but I still won't be
> able to change the layout.  Some characters on a German keyboard (and
> layout) are placed very badly, and I need to change some of them for
> the keyboard to be usable.

OK, now I am with you.  Indeed, I have an HP EliteBook 840 G6 which, to
my mind insanely, has no 'insert' key, but does have 'call' and 'hang
up' telephone keys, which are of no use to me.  I have tried and failed
to remap them.  The keys produce two keycodes and I couldn't work out
how to map that to a single insert.

> And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for
> example, like telnet used to tell you.  It's no problem at all with an
> US keyboard without any modification.  With a German keyboard, you
> have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ...  It took me like
> 30 years or so before I managed.  And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed
> to mean?

As many have pointed out, it is short for 'Steuerung', but I have met
many Germans who refer to this key as 'String'.  I am not sure why

> So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland?  Why is there
> no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there
> should be?
>
> Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an
> entirely obsolete feature.  I never need that.  I only need to be able
> to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer.
>
> In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so
> many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for
> the console in the first place.  How that is done changes like all the
> time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right,
> especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't
> work[1].  So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be
> able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an
> US keyboard.  But I only have one of those.
>
> It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between
> switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently.  But
> the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing.
>
>
> [1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet.
-- 
This signature is currently under constuction.

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#267050 — Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

Hi,

Loris Bennett wrote:
> As many have pointed out, it is short for 'Steuerung', but I have met
> many Germans who refer to this key as 'String'.  I am not sure why

BASIC ?

Or the popular bundle theory:
[Strg] (= [Ctrl]) means "String",
[AltGr] (= right side [Alt]) means "Altgriechisch" (= ancient greek),
[Entf] (= [Delete]) means "Entfetten" (= degrease).


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#267056 — Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 10:57 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote:
> [...]
> OK, now I am with you.  Indeed, I have an HP EliteBook 840 G6 which, to
> my mind insanely, has no 'insert' key, but does have 'call' and 'hang
> up' telephone keys, which are of no use to me.  I have tried and failed
> to remap them.  The keys produce two keycodes and I couldn't work out
> how to map that to a single insert.

That is another good example that we need to be able to change the
keyboard layout.

When these strange keys create scan codes and you're using Xorg, it's
probably easy to remap them with xmodmap.  Just change their mapping
to what usually the insert key is mapped to.

> [...]
> As many have pointed out, it is short for 'Steuerung', but I have met
> many Germans who refer to this key as 'String'.  I am not sure why

'Strg' doesn't belong on a key.  It's 'Ctrl'.  There is no German
translation for that, and calling it 'Steuerung' is plain wrong.  A
more correct translation would be 'Kontrolle', and it is also wrong
for this key.  If someone says 'String' that only shows that they have
no clue what they're talking about.

'Strg' means nothing.  It's another failure like 'allgemeine
Schutzverletzung' which, very likely, is a failed transation of
'segementation fault'.  'Allgemeine Schutzverletzung' means nothing.

A lot of things don't translate into German and the people who are
creating such translations don't know what the term they are trying to
translate means and thus come up with such nonsense.  I never read any
documentation in German because the transation is always garbage and
not understandable; you have to read it in English for it to make any
sense.  Computers and software were not created and developed in
Germany but in the US and thus fit into the English language and not
into German.  That's still the case, and German doesn't have the
necessary words.  There's probably more to it, like computers being
part of the worlds American peoeple live in while not being part of
the worlds Germans live in, with a few exceptions, so they never made
it into the language.  There is still not even a word for 'computer'
in German (there is no word for cellphone, either).  Germany has been
cut off, and it shows.

When you need to tell a German to press Ctrl, you have to tell them to
press Strg.  They won't find the Ctrl key and they won't find the
Steuerung key.  Those keys aren't on German keyboards.  I don't know
why they changed that, it used be Ctrl on Germany keyboards.  People
used to be able to find the Ctrl key when you told them to press
Control.  It's just bullshit, they should never have changed it, and
it's stupid and annoying.

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#267061 — Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 12:47 +0100, hw wrote:
> 'Strg' doesn't belong on a key.  It's 'Ctrl'.  There is no German
> translation for that, and calling it 'Steuerung' is plain wrong.  A
> more correct translation would be 'Kontrolle', and it is also wrong
> for this key.  If someone says 'String' that only shows that they
> have
> no clue what they're talking about.

No, actually "Steuerung" is a/the correct translation of "control":

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/german-english/steuerung

Yes, in some contexts "Control" can also mean "Kontrolle", but more 
often than not it is a "false friend".

> 'Strg' means nothing.  It's another failure like 'allgemeine
> Schutzverletzung' which, very likely, is a failed transation of
> 'segementation fault'.  'Allgemeine Schutzverletzung' means nothing.

The concept of control characters/"Steuerzeichen" is a completely
valid concept, and "Steuerzeichen" is the dominant, and IMO correct
translation of it. These characters are meant not to print letters, but
to control stuff (make the bell go "pling", return the carriage) 
etc, "sie sollen Geräte steuern".

I do completely agree with you, that especially Microsoft made
some truely bad decisions in creating German translations for
concepts that are expressed much more elegantly in the English
original.

But translating "Ctrl" to "Strg" (if you do not read it as "String
or even "Strange" as some people do) is not one of these. Yes, the
choice the Swiss made with just printing "Ctrl" on the key was probably
better.

That said, and to be at least somewhat more on-topic: Most of my
systems are in en_GB locale, but I've found the German translations of
Debian to be worlds better than their Microsoft counterparts. 

/ralph

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#267063 — Of German keycap translations [was: How can we change the keyboard layout?]

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 01:07:24PM +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote:

[...]

> But translating "Ctrl" to "Strg" (if you do not read it as "String
> or even "Strange" as some people do) is not one of these [...]

Funny. I always read it as "Strangulieren"...

=:-o

Cheers
-- 
t

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#267071 — Re: Of German keycap translations [was: How can we change the keyboard layout?]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 13:32 +0100, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 01:07:24PM +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > But translating "Ctrl" to "Strg" (if you do not read it as "String
> > or even "Strange" as some people do) is not one of these [...]
> 
> Funny. I always read it as "Strangulieren"...

Hm I guess that's one way of controlling someone.  For a computer,
you might have to put some variable resistors into a buch of wires to
make it work.  But they're way too digital for that.

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#267069 — Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 13:07 +0100, Ralph Aichinger wrote:
> On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 12:47 +0100, hw wrote:
> > 'Strg' doesn't belong on a key.  It's 'Ctrl'.  There is no German
> > translation for that, and calling it 'Steuerung' is plain wrong.  A
> > more correct translation would be 'Kontrolle', and it is also wrong
> > for this key.  If someone says 'String' that only shows that they
> > have
> > no clue what they're talking about.
> 
> No, actually "Steuerung" is a/the correct translation of "control":

No, it isn't when you understand what it means in German.  See, for
example:

https://www.dwds.de/wb/Steuerung
https://www.wordnik.com/words/control
https://www.dwds.de/wb/Kontrolle

And don't forget the difference between 'Steuerung' and 'Regelung',
see here for an example:
https://www.haustechnikverstehen.de/der-unterschied-zwischen-steuerung-und-regelung/

> https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/german-english/steuerung

too many cookies

> Yes, in some contexts "Control" can also mean "Kontrolle", but more 
> often than not it is a "false friend".

In any case, it doesn't mean 'Steuerung'.  It might be best if we were
to find out how it came about that there is a key labled 'Ctrl',
meaning 'control', on keyboards, and what the intention originally
was.

> [...] These characters are meant not to print letters, but to
> control stuff (make the bell go "pling", return the carriage)  etc,
> "sie sollen Geräte steuern".

They are not characters but key combinations to control a computer in
lack of designated keys.  As to 'Geraete steuern' see above.  There's
a particular meaning to 'Steuern' when it comes to that context, and
it's very different from 'Kontrollieren'.  There's also 'ein Fahrzeug
steuern'.  You would have to argue that the key must not be labled
'Ctrl' but 'Steer'.

> I do completely agree with you, that especially Microsoft made
> some truely bad decisions in creating German translations for
> concepts that are expressed much more elegantly in the English
> original.

I'm not sure that Microsoft did that.  Maybe they hired translators to
do the translations since Microsoft doesn't speak German ...

> But translating "Ctrl" to "Strg" (if you do not read it as "String
> or even "Strange" as some people do) is not one of these. Yes, the
> choice the Swiss made with just printing "Ctrl" on the key was probably
> better.

It's bad.  And like I said, German keyboards used to have the Ctrl
key.  It was only changed to 'Strg' a long time later so nobody knows
anymore what it means.  It was a very bad idea, entirely unnecessary
and is designed to make people stupid.

> That said, and to be at least somewhat more on-topic: Most of my
> systems are in en_GB locale, but I've found the German translations
> of Debian to be worlds better than their Microsoft counterparts.

Microsoft translated Debian documentation?

It's been decades that I tried to read Debian man pages or other
documentation in German, and back then, the translation was terrible
and I switched to English.  Even if there are now better translations,
I'd probably be a very awkward reading and I'd have to keep trying to
translate it back to English while reading to figure out what it's
trying to say.

Out of curiosity, what does Debian translate 'segmentation fault' to?
What it means is evident in English.  In German, the whole background
required to understand it does not exist.

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#267092 — [OT] (I guess) Re: How can we change the keyboard layout?

Hi,

On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 13:07:24 +0100
Ralph Aichinger <ra@h5.or.at> wrote:

> On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 12:47 +0100, hw wrote:
> > 'Strg' doesn't belong on a key.  It's 'Ctrl'.  There is no German
> > translation for that, and calling it 'Steuerung' is plain wrong.  A
> > more correct translation would be 'Kontrolle', and it is also wrong
> > for this key.  If someone says 'String' that only shows that they
> > have
> > no clue what they're talking about.
> 
> No, actually "Steuerung" is a/the correct translation of "control":
> 
> https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/german-english/steuerung
> 
> Yes, in some contexts "Control" can also mean "Kontrolle", but more 
> often than not it is a "false friend".

I think this is at least debatable (if not plainly wrong). If you look at
the same dictionary the other way around (which I believe one should
do when looking for the German translation of "control") the impression
is quite to the contrary:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english-german/control

Just saying ...

Have a nice day :-)

Michael

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#267022

On 05/02/2024 18:37, hw wrote:
> With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
> wayland, I can't do that anymore

Untested:

https://who-t.blogspot.com/2020/02/user-specific-xkb-configuration-part-1.html
User-specific XKB configuration - part 1

and I have heard about a low-level trick

/etc/udev/hwdb.d/90-custom-keyboard.hwdb
evdev:input:b0003v1A2Cp0E24*
  KEYBOARD_KEY_70039=f14

However I am unsure if it is possible to remap "Fn" key, it may be 
handled by device firmware.

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#267051

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 11:11 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 05/02/2024 18:37, hw wrote:
> > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
> > wayland, I can't do that anymore
> 
> Untested:
> 
> https://who-t.blogspot.com/2020/02/user-specific-xkb-configuration-part-1.html
> User-specific XKB configuration - part 1
> 
> and I have heard about a low-level trick
> 
> /etc/udev/hwdb.d/90-custom-keyboard.hwdb
> evdev:input:b0003v1A2Cp0E24*
>   KEYBOARD_KEY_70039=f14

ls -la /etc/udev/hwdb.d/
total 0
drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  0 Jan 22 01:00 .
drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 82 Feb  5 13:03 ..

But this is on Fedora, and perhaps Debian does it differently.

> However I am unsure if it is possible to remap "Fn" key, it may be 
> handled by device firmware.

IIUC that is the case: The number of keys the PC hardware can deal
with is (was) limited, and it's less than 122.  There used to be
terminals that could use all 122 keys, using connectors that don't fit
PCs.  So a keyboard to be connected to a PC which has 122 keys is
either incompatibel, or you can't use all keys, or the
hardware/firmware in the keyboard translates (some) keys to what a PC
can understand.

In case of the 122 key keyoard I'm using, its hard-/firmware
translates keys like F14 to Shift+4.  IIRC that was the classical way
to press F14 (because someone made up that pressing Shift+F4 should be
called F14 because they wanted more keys for some software).  There is
probably no scan code for F14 a PC would understand because it doesn't
exist for a PC.  This keyboard has other keys like 'Help' that it also
translates to something a PC can understand.

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#267060

On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 12:04:16PM +0100, hw wrote:
> ls -la /etc/udev/hwdb.d/
> total 0
> drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  0 Jan 22 01:00 .
> drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 82 Feb  5 13:03 ..
> 
> But this is on Fedora, and perhaps Debian does it differently.

unicorn:~$ ls /etc/udev
hwdb.d/  rules.d/  udev.conf
unicorn:~$ ls /etc/udev/hwdb.d/
unicorn:~$ 

Looks like a blank slate.  Create your own rules, at your own risk.

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#266994

On 2/4/24 9:56 AM, Michael Kjörling wrote:

> If you contact them and ask, they can probably tell you whether the
> key caps . . . can be flipped physically.

Unicomp can and will make custom keycaps.

--
JHHL

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#266978

On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 11:36 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> * On 2024 04 Feb 04:23 -0600, hw wrote:
> > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> > > the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> > > adapter so I gave up on them.
> > 
> > They might work with a so-called active adapter.  IIRC it has
> > something to do with the adpater suppling power.  With some research
> > and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
> > keyboards.
> 
> As I use GNOME, I need the left menu key as I have the hotspot disabled
> to open the overview.  My old Model Ms lack that key.
> 
> > Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.
> 
> I don't like their swapping of the right Alt and Menu keys unless the
> keyboard can be configured to swap them back.  Otherwise, I would prefer
> the right Menu key in that position be removed and that area given back
> to the Space bar.  I don't find any documentation on their Web site
> about that capability.

Contact them, maybe you can get a layout you want --- or check out the
122 key version closeley.

> I do like about the Daskeyboard is that instead of being the right Menu
> key that key is a Function key much like a laptop and it activates media
> control keys on several of the function keys.  It's quite handy to raise
> or lower the speaker volume when playing a video full screen.
> 
> > I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
> > keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
> > better than these buckling spring ones.
> 
> No question.  The M is the ultimate but unless someone can point me to a
> document that shows swapping those two keys, I won't be buying.

I'm not sure what you mean.  I don't have these stupid extra keys
nobody wants or needs they put into the row with the space bar --- I
guess you mean those?  Those get in the way all the time and I hate
them.  On the 122 key version, they are at the bottom of the small
block of keys an the left where they are not in the way.

You can pull all the keycaps and swap them around if you like.  If
you're still using Xorg, you should be able to reconfigure the key
bindings.

I couldn't find out how to do that with wayland :(  Without being able
to modify the key bindings, I'm stuck with an US layout, and keyboards
with a physical US layout are almost impossible to get here.

It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
the key bindings.  The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
Maybe someone knows where that is?

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#266986

hw wrote:
...
> It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
> the key bindings.  The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
> Maybe someone knows where that is?

  in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch
around keyboards and common keys being swapped.  i don't use
them now, but did in the past.  likely GNOME has something
similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long
time.


  songbird

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#267001

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:46 -0500, songbird wrote:
> hw wrote:
> ...
> > It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
> > the key bindings.  The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
> > Maybe someone knows where that is?
> 
>   in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch
> around keyboards and common keys being swapped.

Does that work with wayland?

With a German keyboard, one of the keys I need to change is ~.
There's also ` when you get to do with databases, and a bunch of
others, like changing comma to dot and more that don't come to mind
atm.

Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
keyboard?  It's insane.

> i don't use them now, but did in the past.  likely GNOME has
> something similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long
> time.

Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
fvwm, and the lack of configurability with Gnome sucks badly.  I'd
like KDE much better, but KDE has always been rather slow and too
buggy.  When I tried KDE with wayland it didn't really work at all.

The only alternative I know of is sway, but I don't get along with
tiling WMs.  I like the idea; the problem is that they need to do
floating windows just as well, and they don't do that.

I had fvwm configured so it would manage the windows for me instead of
having to manage them myself, including tiling, but as long there's
no wayland version of fvwm, we're stuck with KDE and Gnome ...

Maybe give Gnome another try.  It does have its advantages, and it
can't hurt to check it out.

The additional keys on my 122 key keyboard help with Gnome (and other
things) a great deal.  So if you want to get a kind of Model M, get
122 keys.

Who still makes 122 key keyboards except Unicomp?

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