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what keyboard do you use?

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  what keyboard do you use? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 02:30 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Gremlin <scott-andrews@columbus.rr.com> - 2024-02-03 02:50 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Timothy M Butterworth <timothy.m.butterworth@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 04:00 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2024-02-03 03:00 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2024-02-03 03:10 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-02-03 08:40 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 15:40 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-04 11:30 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-02-04 17:30 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2024-02-04 18:40 +0100
          Re: what keyboard do you use? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-04 19:00 +0100
            Re: what keyboard do you use? Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2024-02-04 19:10 +0100
              Re: what keyboard do you use? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-04 19:30 +0100
                Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 12:40 +0100
                  Re: what keyboard do you use? "Loris Bennett" <loris.bennett@fu-berlin.de> - 2024-02-05 15:50 +0100
                    How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you  use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 21:10 +0100
                      Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) Ralph Aichinger <ra@h5.or.at> - 2024-02-05 21:40 +0100
                      Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-05 21:40 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 23:50 +0100
                          Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-02-06 12:30 +0100
                            Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 15:10 +0100
                      Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-05 22:10 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 00:20 +0100
                          Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-06 05:30 +0100
                            Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-02-06 05:50 +0100
                              Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-02-06 06:30 +0100
                                Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 06:40 +0100
                                  Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-02-06 15:20 +0100
                            Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 11:30 +0100
                              Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-07 04:50 +0100
                                Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-07 07:00 +0100
                                  Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-02-07 13:20 +0100
                                    Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2024-02-07 14:40 +0100
                                  Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-13 08:20 +0100
                                    Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-21 20:00 +0100
                                      Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-21 23:20 +0100
                                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-26 04:30 +0100
                          Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-06 10:20 +0100
                            Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 11:40 +0100
                              Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 11:50 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-02-06 04:20 +0100
                      Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) Brian Sammon <debian-users-list@brisammon.fastmail.fm> - 2024-02-06 07:40 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2024-02-06 13:10 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do  you use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 14:00 +0100
                        solved: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard  do you use?) hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 16:00 +0100
                      Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? "Loris Bennett" <loris.bennett@fu-berlin.de> - 2024-02-06 11:20 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2024-02-06 12:00 +0100
                        Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 12:50 +0100
                          Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Ralph Aichinger <ra@h5.or.at> - 2024-02-06 13:30 +0100
                            Of German keycap translations [was: How can we change the keyboard  layout?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 13:40 +0100
                              Re: Of German keycap translations [was: How can we change the  keyboard layout?] hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 14:50 +0100
                            Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 14:40 +0100
                            [OT] (I guess) Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? Michael Lange <klappnase@t-online.de> - 2024-02-07 00:00 +0100
                  Re: what keyboard do you use? Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2024-02-06 05:20 +0100
                    Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 12:10 +0100
                      Re: what keyboard do you use? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-02-06 13:20 +0100
            Re: what keyboard do you use? "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2024-02-05 18:10 +0100
          Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 12:30 +0100
            Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-05 15:10 +0100
              Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 21:50 +0100
                On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 06:40 +0100
                  Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?] hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-06 15:00 +0100
                    Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-02-06 15:10 +0100
                Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-06 15:10 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-04 18:40 +0100
          Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 12:10 +0100
            Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-05 15:10 +0100
              Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 20:40 +0100
                Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-06 15:10 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2024-02-03 05:00 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Ralph Aichinger <ra@h5.or.at> - 2024-02-03 05:00 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 16:00 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-02-03 05:50 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-03 06:20 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 07:00 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2024-02-03 13:30 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-02-03 13:40 +0100
          Re: what keyboard do you use? Jörg-Volker Peetz <jvpeetz@web.de> - 2024-02-03 15:50 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-02-03 06:50 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2024-02-05 17:50 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-02-03 08:40 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-02-03 15:50 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2024-02-03 14:50 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2024-02-03 15:20 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? "Russell L. Harris" <russell@rlharris.org> - 2024-02-03 17:20 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? Roger Price <debian@rogerprice.org> - 2024-02-03 18:40 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-04 12:20 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@debian-user.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2024-02-04 22:30 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Henrik Morsing <henrik@morsing.cc> - 2024-02-05 12:40 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-02-05 13:30 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Peter Ehlert <pb21a@sdi-baja.com> - 2024-02-05 16:20 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? Ash Joubert <ash@transient.nz> - 2024-02-06 00:20 +0100
        Re: what keyboard do you use? Peter Ehlert <pb21a@sdi-baja.com> - 2024-02-06 01:50 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2024-02-05 17:50 +0100
      Re: what keyboard do you use? hw <hw@adminart.net> - 2024-02-05 22:30 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2024-02-05 23:30 +0100
    Re: what keyboard do you use? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2024-02-06 05:30 +0100

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#267029 — On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?]

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On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote:

[...]

> Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> keyboard?  It's insane.

While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one,
although you exaggerated by one key), I don't understand this
one. I'm entering IPv4 addresses every day in a German keyboard
and I don't see any problem. IPv6 is trickier, though...

But floats? Where's the problem?

[...]

> Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
> fvwm [...]

That's why I came full circle back from GNOME (with some stops in
XFCE, awesome) to fvwm. I like a setup where the window manager is
*my* ally, not that of some krazy applications (browsers, I'm looking
at you). Including a key combo for xkill (I even clawed back the
little skull for the cursor :-)

Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it!

Cheers
-- 
t

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#267072 — Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 06:33 +0100, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> > keyboard?  It's insane.
> 
> While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one,
> although you exaggerated by one key), I don't understand this
> one. I'm entering IPv4 addresses every day in a German keyboard
> and I don't see any problem. IPv6 is trickier, though...
> 
> But floats? Where's the problem?

I'm entering numbers, like ipv4 addresses and floats, through the
number pad, with one hand.  Unless you change the keyboard layout so
you have a dot instead of a (useless) comma on the Del key, you can't
sanely enter such numbers, and you can't reasonably do it with one
hand.

Add to that that I'm using the trackball with my left hand and you
understand that I would have to take my hand off the trackball just to
enter such numbers.  Even then it would be nuisance.

> 
> [...]
> 
> > Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
> > fvwm [...]
> 
> That's why I came full circle back from GNOME (with some stops in
> XFCE, awesome) to fvwm. I like a setup where the window manager is
> *my* ally, not that of some krazy applications (browsers, I'm looking
> at you). Including a key combo for xkill (I even clawed back the
> little skull for the cursor :-)
> 
> Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it!

Then why aren't you using fvwm?  Gnome is more your enemy than your
ally since it still lacks almost all configurability.

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#267076 — Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?]

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On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 02:55:30PM +0100, hw wrote:
> On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 06:33 +0100, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> > > keyboard?  It's insane.
> > 
> > While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one,

[...]

> > But floats? Where's the problem?
> 
> I'm entering numbers, like ipv4 addresses and floats, through the
> number pad [...]

Ah, that was the missing piece, thanks.

[...]

> > Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it!
> 
> Then why aren't you using fvwm?  Gnome is more your enemy than your
> ally since it still lacks almost all configurability.

I /am/ using fvwm. Everything else would drive me nuts (more than
I am, already).

Cheers
-- 
t

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#267074

hw wrote:
> On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:46 -0500, songbird wrote:
>> hw wrote:
>> ...
>> > It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
>> > the key bindings.  The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
>> > Maybe someone knows where that is?
>> 
>>   in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch
>> around keyboards and common keys being swapped.
>
> Does that work with wayland?

  i'm using Debian testing, so whatever MATE is at in there
in respect to wayland is where i'm at.  i haven't intentionally
prevented changes from happening, but i'm also not sure wayland
is fully supported in MATE in testing right now.  i think
though that i run X11 still.


> With a German keyboard, one of the keys I need to change is ~.
> There's also ` when you get to do with databases, and a bunch of
> others, like changing comma to dot and more that don't come to mind
> atm.
>
> Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> keyboard?  It's insane.

  i had 3 weeks of German in college about 40 years ago.
that's it other than Hogan's Heroes...  so, the answer
would be no.


>> i don't use them now, but did in the past.  likely GNOME has
>> something similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long
>> time.
>
> Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
> fvwm, and the lack of configurability with Gnome sucks badly.  I'd
> like KDE much better, but KDE has always been rather slow and too
> buggy.  When I tried KDE with wayland it didn't really work at all.
>
> The only alternative I know of is sway, but I don't get along with
> tiling WMs.  I like the idea; the problem is that they need to do
> floating windows just as well, and they don't do that.
>
> I had fvwm configured so it would manage the windows for me instead of
> having to manage them myself, including tiling, but as long there's
> no wayland version of fvwm, we're stuck with KDE and Gnome ...
>
> Maybe give Gnome another try.  It does have its advantages, and it
> can't hurt to check it out.

  good luck.  i don't have time or space to try GNOME out
again.  i went a long torturous route via GNOME, to KDE 
and back to GNOME for a short while and then disgusted at
it went to MATE and have been mostly happy there.  it is
a consistent interface enough that it doesn't get in my
way.  that's what i wanted stability and those others kept
destroying my efforts (or more accurately my lack of the
desire to figure out a new method of doing the same thing
without the interface making the wrong assumptions about
what i wanted it to do (stay out of the way :) ))...


> The additional keys on my 122 key keyboard help with Gnome (and other
> things) a great deal.  So if you want to get a kind of Model M, get
> 122 keys.
>
> Who still makes 122 key keyboards except Unicomp?

  no idea.

  i'm content with 104.  i rarely use odd keys.  i have to
retrain myself to use the number pad because it really is
faster for when i'm editing numbers or doing data entry.


  songbird

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#266955

hw wrote:
> On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
>> [...]
>> I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
>> the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
>> adapter so I gave up on them.
>
> They might work with a so-called active adapter.  IIRC it has
> something to do with the adpater suppling power.  With some research
> and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
> keyboards.
>
> Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.
>
> I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
> keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
> better than these buckling spring ones.

  if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
me.  i have two dead ones.  :(  the pressure fitted ribbon
cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
tabs break off.

  otherwise the feel is good.  very loud when i'm writing...


  songbird

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#266976

On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote:
> hw wrote:
> > On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:09 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > I have several of the now classic IBM Model M keyboards I procured in
> > > the '90s.  Modern BIOSes don't like them even with a PS/2 to USB
> > > adapter so I gave up on them.
> > 
> > They might work with a so-called active adapter.  IIRC it has
> > something to do with the adpater suppling power.  With some research
> > and an investment of like $5, you can probably still use your
> > keyboards.
> > 
> > Unicomp[1] still makes these keyboards, and you can get them for USB.
> > 
> > I'm using one right now (with 122 keys), and among all the different
> > keyboards I used over the last 40 years, I've never found anything
> > better than these buckling spring ones.
> 
>   if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
> still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
> me.  i have two dead ones.  :(  the pressure fitted ribbon
> cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
> tabs break off.
> 
>   otherwise the feel is good.  very loud when i'm writing...

IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago.  What are you doing
that it's too wobbly for you?

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#266985

hw wrote:
> On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote:
...
>>   if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
>> still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
>> me.  i have two dead ones.  :(  the pressure fitted ribbon
>> cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
>> tabs break off.
>> 
>>   otherwise the feel is good.  very loud when i'm writing...
>
> IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago.  What are you doing
> that it's too wobbly for you?

  it's not wobbly it is the entire keyboard flexes when you
use it in a non-conventional manner.  i do not use them on a
flat desktop, i have them laying across my lap as a am laying
here on my comfy perch (i find sitting uncomfortable and 
eventually painful so i don't do it any more - instead i
sprawl out and have some pillows propping me up a little bit).

  i didn't really figure this out until it was too late for
the second keyboard (a replacement for the first which flaked
out right after the warranty period was up).  after i got the
2nd keyboard i took the first one apart hoping i could fix it
but there were broken plastic tabs and then the pressure
ribbon connection so i just left it aside for parts for the 
new one.  the new one also started having issues within about
a year and a half.

  the first keyboard may have been damaged in shipping based
upon the broken plastic tabs inside, but i can't say for sure
all i know is that it is not built sturdy enough for my use.

  if i knew that flexing was bad i could have come up with a
board or piece of metal to put underneath it to begin with.
this is why i'm mentioning it because there may be someone
else who sees this topic/thread who's doing something like i
am and i don't want them to be out of a keyboard that other-
wise may last quite a long time.

  if i can find a way to get keyboards functional again with-
out costing so much (the pressure ribbon connection just is
not seeming reliable enough) i'd love to have them working
again.  youtube vids are not really covering how to do this
sort of repair (making that connection reliable again).

  i won't contact Unicomp again because despite their claims
of having goals of great customer service i tried to resolve
issues of a bad key and this repeated issue of malfunctioning
connections and didn't get any satisfaction.  the key problem
was noted and should have been covered under the 1yr warranty,
but when i brought it up i got static and resistance.  three
strikes and i'm done with them.

  i did like the restored keyboard project[*] and read through
their website and history to follow it for a few hours but
the overall price is just too much ($300-500).  $80 for what
i have now was acceptable.

[*] https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/


  songbird

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#266997

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:40 -0500, songbird wrote:
> hw wrote:
> > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote:
> ...
> > >   if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
> > > still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
> > > me.  i have two dead ones.  :(  the pressure fitted ribbon
> > > cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
> > > tabs break off.
> > > 
> > >   otherwise the feel is good.  very loud when i'm writing...
> > 
> > IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago.  What are you doing
> > that it's too wobbly for you?
> 
>   it's not wobbly it is the entire keyboard flexes when you
> use it in a non-conventional manner.  i do not use them on a
> flat desktop, i have them laying across my lap as a am laying
> here on my comfy perch

Hm, ok, I still find it amazing that it's so wobbly that the
wobblyness is causing issues since it's still relatively sturdy
compared to other keyboards.  They're not inflexible, though, so using
like them like this, it's not inconvieable that they break.

That pretty much leaves you with having to put a metal plate (like a
piece of 3mm aluminum) under any keyboard, and that'll probably make
it feel cold in your lap.

> [...]
>   i won't contact Unicomp again because despite their claims
> of having goals of great customer service i tried to resolve
> issues of a bad key and this repeated issue of malfunctioning
> connections and didn't get any satisfaction.  the key problem
> was noted and should have been covered under the 1yr warranty,
> but when i brought it up i got static and resistance.  three
> strikes and i'm done with them.

I'm sorry to hear that.  It seems like they cut back on the models and
options a bit, so perhaps they also cut back on customer service.  I
can't tell since I was so lucky as to get mine through German ebay,
and it cost less than what they cost new though it was practically
new.  The shipping alone may cost more than the keyboard itself if I
were to order directly from them :(

>   i did like the restored keyboard project[*] and read through
> their website and history to follow it for a few hours but
> the overall price is just too much ($300-500).

Oh!  I didn't notice that they have come this far and now even offer
different models!  I didn't like the layout of the Model F they
planned a few years ago, and I found the price too steep for a
keyboard the layout of which I don't want.

I'll have to check out their web site; if I could get a F104 Model M
in all metal for 300, it may be worth thinking about getting one ---
but the shipping will probably forbid it.

I do like full size keyboards like the Model M and even more so the
122 key version.  It kinda sucks that every other keyboard is smaller,
especially since the keys are squeezed so tightly together that it can
be difficult to type on it.  The Cherry G80, for example, has that
problem --- it's almost as if Casio designed it like their watches
since they're trying to sell those with bracelets sized for puppets
and small children, which are way too short for anyone with normal
size wrists.

> $80 for what i have now was acceptable.

Which one is that?  It must be an unusually sturdy one.  Or did you
put a metal plate under it?

> [*] https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/

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#267075

hw wrote:
...
>> $80 for what i have now was acceptable.
>
> Which one is that?  It must be an unusually sturdy one.  Or did you
> put a metal plate under it?

  Corsair K70 CORE RGB Mechanical Gaming Keyboard

  it is solid but stiff, it is also pretty quiet compared to a
model M and has no feel like it either, but i can cope with 
that.  the question is how long will it last?  :)  i will find
out...  if i can get three years out of it then i'm ahead of 
my trend with keyboards.  with mice it has been even worse,
but that was another thread...


[complete aside]

  texting on a phone is freaking hideous, i don't know how 
people get things done with those.  thank goodness most
phones have e-mail to text ways of sending and getting 
messages.


  songbird

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#266910

Lee <ler762@gmail.com> writes:

> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
>
> ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
> about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
> work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
>
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?
>
> I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
> Not great but OK.
> I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
> nothing but too thick for regular use.
> And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
> the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
> the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)

A Logitech ergonomic keyboard that mimics the Microsoft Natural but,
sadly, has been out of production for many years. I don't know what I'll
do when it eventually dies, but I expect it'll be expensive...

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#266911

On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:25 -0500, Lee wrote:
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

I like the flat style similar to what is in many notebooks. Current
favourites are the Apple keyboards (expensive though, for what they
are), the Microsoft Designer Compact Keyboard (stupid generic model 
name), that seems to have a problem for some that the electronics die
prematurely, it might not be able to connect any longer after some
time. Great if it works though, can often be gotten relatively cheaply
for about half the normal price. Very minimal design, you can't take 
away much more from a keyboard:

https://www.microsoft.com/en/accessories/products/keyboards/microsoft-designer-compact-keyboard?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

And a new fascination of mine, the Logitech MX series, also kind
of expensive, and with rather ugly design, but typing feels just
wonderful.

Of the cheaper ones, I like the Logitech k280e. Feels quite OK for the
price, not on the level of the obove three though. Also large, clunky
and heavy.

I used to be a full layout (with keypad) person, but recently I began
to like the smaller layouts. Takes up less space on the desk, only
thing I miss are the full cursor keys. Easier to move around on the
desk, which I do a lot.

Keyboards are a product where preferences diverge a lot and are very 
personal. Fortunately there is lots of choice in the market currently.

/ralph

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#266929

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 10:51 PM Ralph Aichinger wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 20:25 -0500, Lee wrote:
> > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> > which keyboard do you like and why?
>
> I like the flat style similar to what is in many notebooks. Current
> favourites are the Apple keyboards (expensive though, for what they
> are), the Microsoft Designer Compact Keyboard (stupid generic model
> name), that seems to have a problem for some that the electronics die
> prematurely, it might not be able to connect any longer after some
> time. Great if it works though, can often be gotten relatively cheaply
> for about half the normal price. Very minimal design, you can't take
> away much more from a keyboard:
>
> https://www.microsoft.com/en/accessories/products/keyboards/microsoft-designer-compact-keyboard?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

That looks nice for a tablet or something that you'll be carrying around.

> And a new fascination of mine, the Logitech MX series, also kind
> of expensive, and with rather ugly design, but typing feels just
> wonderful.

Logitech seems to be quitting the corded keyboard business :(  I go to
their keyboard selection site, select full sized with numpad and
corded and only two keyboards show up - the one I pulled out of the
closet that I think is too tall and a K-845.  I don't have a whole lot
of luck with batteries or wireless, so a cord is a must for me.

> Of the cheaper ones, I like the Logitech k280e. Feels quite OK for the
> price, not on the level of the obove three though. Also large, clunky
> and heavy.
>
> I used to be a full layout (with keypad) person, but recently I began
> to like the smaller layouts. Takes up less space on the desk, only
> thing I miss are the full cursor keys. Easier to move around on the
> desk, which I do a lot.
>
> Keyboards are a product where preferences diverge a lot and are very
> personal. Fortunately there is lots of choice in the market currently.

As I'm seeing :)

Thanks
Lee

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#266914

> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?

My favorites are the old Thinkpad USB UltraNav travel keyboards
(http://salestores.com/stores/images/images_747/31P9490.jpg).  They even
come with a 2-port USB hub so you can connect a mouse directly to them
(and/or a security key, ... tho you can't go crazy because it has very
low power limits (and it's USB-1 only): no flash drive, for instance).
But they're becoming hard to find.

I also have one of those cheap 78-key compact&thin keyboards and, beside
the lack of "page up"/"page down" keys (and of course the lack of
a trackpoint), I really like it.  Mine is a "no brand" model, but
it's fairly similar to the JLab Go wireless keyboard
(https://www.jlab.com/products/jlab-go-keyboard?variant=39457511407688),
except with a cable so I don't need to worry about batteries or
bluetooth connection.


        Stefan

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#266915

Lee wrote:

> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
...

  a Corsair K70 CORE RGB Mechanical Gaming Keyboard.  my
previous keyboard was starting to miss key presses and
duplicating others.  since i also needed a new mouse it
was a day to get a refresh.  paid about $80 for it.

  works fine, did not install any software to mess with
the settings i just use the manual key presses to set
it after booting (i don't want lights flashing or moving
when i'm typing and i'm ok with not seeing the keys most
of the time so i turn the lights way down).

  it is a little stiff and very quiet compared to what
i'm used to but it's working fine.

  since they keys are partially clear to let light 
through i'm not worried about wearing the keycaps off.
if i get 3 years out of it i'll be happy.  i seem to
go from 1-3 years most of the time before something
breaks.

  it is not light, it is not thin.  i perch it on my
lap as i type, it has to be flat and kept flet by some-
thing better than plastic to not mess up the stuff 
inside (based upon previous keyboards that failed due 
to plastic flexing too much over time).

  so we'll see how this one works out longer term.


  songbird

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#266917

Lee wrote:
>> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(

I have decided to go to the mechanical keyboard style where you get 
positive feedback on key strokes.

For me there are two 'colors' that are interesting

Blue which has strong tactile feedback, requires slight force, and gives 
a loud audible mechanical click on each keystroke.

Brown is the same as blue but has no load mechanical click, just the 
tactile feedback.

I don't necessarily make no mistakes but I know certainly when I have 
struck a key.

As far as brands go, most ones with names you don't recognise won't last 
a year. Probably a logitech one would be O.K.?

You can also get ones with keyboard lighting. It is actually helpful, 
though ones that do light shows are to be avoided. Just a simple green 
or such and perhaps ones that briefly dim the light on each key when you 
strike it.

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#266922

jeremy ardley wrote:
...
> You can also get ones with keyboard lighting. It is actually helpful, 
> though ones that do light shows are to be avoided. Just a simple green 
> or such and perhaps ones that briefly dim the light on each key when you 
> strike it.

  you can change the light show by pressing various key
combinations or you can use software to do it for you 
when the machine boots.  i decided to just use the key
presses and avoid having yet more packages installed.

  the light show i prefer for most typing is the one
which lights up the key just a little when it is 
pressed.  so it is not too bright as to be distracting
but it does provide some feedback.  you can adjust how
bright you want it to be in five increments.  i leave
it at one.  i rarely need to see all of the keys at 
one time.  when getting going for the day i have an id
and password so that is when i want all the keys visible
- after that it rarely matters, but it is easy enough to
change it back and forth.

  if you want to have some blinkin' lights you can put
on some nice effects when you press keys, at night it
can look like a Christmas tree.  :)  just to show someone.
i find it too distracting for normal operation.


  songbird

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#266923

jeremy ardley wrote: 
> Lee wrote:
> > > I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
> 
> I have decided to go to the mechanical keyboard style where you get positive
> feedback on key strokes.
> 
> For me there are two 'colors' that are interesting
> 
> Blue which has strong tactile feedback, requires slight force, and gives a
> loud audible mechanical click on each keystroke.
> 
> Brown is the same as blue but has no load mechanical click, just the tactile
> feedback.
> 
> I don't necessarily make no mistakes but I know certainly when I have struck
> a key.
> 
> As far as brands go, most ones with names you don't recognise won't last a
> year. Probably a logitech one would be O.K.?
> 
> You can also get ones with keyboard lighting. It is actually helpful, though
> ones that do light shows are to be avoided. Just a simple green or such and
> perhaps ones that briefly dim the light on each key when you strike it.

As far as I know, Logitech doesn't make a mechanical keyboard.

Brands which have proven reliable to me:

Keychron
Ducky
CoolerMaster's MasterKeys series

-dsr-

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#266928

Dan Ritter wrote on 03/02/2024 13:16:
<snip>
> As far as I know, Logitech doesn't make a mechanical keyboard.
> 
<snip>
Logitech now has, with and w/o ten key block: search for "Logitech MX 
Mechanical". They are wireless with USB adapter and have a configurable 
mono-color key light.
I myself use the MX Mechanical Mini. Can be configured from Linux with solaar.

Regards,
Jörg.

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#266916

On 2/2/24 17:25, Lee wrote:
> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
> 
> ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
> about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
> work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
> 
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?
> 
> I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
> Not great but OK.
> I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
> nothing but too thick for regular use.
> And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
> the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
> the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)
> 
> Thanks
> Lee


The IBM Model M is the standard to which all other computer keyboards 
are compared.  The buckling spring design was created to provide a 
tactile experience comparable to an IBM Seletric typewriter, to support 
professional typists in an office environment.  I used and loved the 
Model M back in the day, but the noise gets tiresome and any persons not 
protected by a soundproof wall will hate you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_M_keyboard


Unicomp makes modernized variants:

https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD


I believe I have read postings by people who installed O-rings on their 
Model M's to reduce the noise.


Another reader mentioned Cherry.  You can get complete keyboards from 
Cherry and you can get keyboards from other manufacturers with Cherry MX 
mechanical switches.  Make sure you understand the various colors and 
your typing needs/ preferences:

https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2012/12/an-introduction-to-cherry-mx-mechanical-switches/


I have been using a Keyed Up Labs ES-87 for the past several years.  I 
am a pounder and have worn out or broken many keyboards, but the KUL-87 
and its Cherry MX Clear switches have withstood me.  The noise level is 
tolerable when typing at full speed, but you can slow down and type 
half-stroke when you want minimal noise:

https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/6625/keyed-up-labs-kul-es-87-tenkeyless-mechanical-keyboard-review/index.html


The bottom of the barrel are keyboards with rubber dome switches.  If 
you do any serious typing, you and your fingers will not be happy.  I 
use leftover dome switch keyboards on headless servers to prevent 
missing keyboard errors and to perform minimal sysadmin chores (entering 
encryption passphrases during boot, logging in as root, restarting, 
powering off, etc.).


I have noted that my older PS/2 keyboards and/or mice are not recognized 
by the motherboard firmware Setup utility on my newer Dell workstations 
and/or servers with PS/2 ports.  And, PS/2 keyboards and mice are not 
hot-pluggable.  So, unless you have some specific PS/2 need (gamer with 
large N-key rollover?), I suggest USB.


David

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#266993

I also wouldn't mind one bit if somebody came up with a computer 
keyboard that exactly duplicates the key arrangement and feel of a 
Linotype keyboard.

Not for practical daily use, mind you (I'll stick with my Unicomps); 
rather, as a practice instrument for those who occasionally run Linotype 
and Intertype machines, and for interpretive exhibits in graphic arts 
museums (given that I spend my Saturdays docenting at the International 
Printing Museum, I'd find both useful).

"etaoin shrdlu"

--
JHHL

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