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How to use dmsetuup?

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  How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-03 17:30 +0100
    Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-03 17:50 +0100
    Re: How to use dmsetuup? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-11-03 18:10 +0100
    Re: How to use dmsetuup? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-03 22:50 +0100
      Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-04 01:00 +0100
        Re: How to use dmsetuup? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-04 01:50 +0100
    Re: How to use dmsetuup? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2023-11-03 23:20 +0100
      Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-04 01:10 +0100
      Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-04 12:50 +0100
        Re: How to use dmsetuup? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-04 14:50 +0100
          Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-04 18:30 +0100
            Re: How to use dmsetuup? tomas@tuxteam.de - 2023-11-04 19:40 +0100
              Re: How to use dmsetuup? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-11-04 21:50 +0100
            Re: How to use dmsetuup? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-04 22:40 +0100
              Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-04 23:30 +0100
                Re: How to use dmsetuup? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-05 00:40 +0100
                  Re: How to use dmsetuup? yxcv@vienna.at - 2023-11-05 01:10 +0100
                  Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-05 02:00 +0100
                    Re: How to use dmsetuup? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-05 04:20 +0100
                      Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-05 05:10 +0100
                        Re: How to use dmsetuup? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-05 07:50 +0100
                          Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-05 10:50 +0100
                            Re: How to use dmsetuup? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-05 11:30 +0100
                              Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-05 16:30 +0100
                  Re: How to use dmsetuup? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2023-11-05 09:10 +0100
                    Re: How to use dmsetuup? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-05 21:20 +0100
                      Re: How to use dmsetuup? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-11-05 21:50 +0100
                        Re: How to use dmsetuup? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-05 23:30 +0100
                      Re: How to use dmsetuup? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2023-11-05 23:20 +0100
                        Re: How to use dmsetuup? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-05 23:50 +0100
                          Re: How to use dmsetuup? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2023-11-06 08:40 +0100
                    xorriso and SIGTERM/SIGINT handler (was: Re: How to use dmsetuup?) Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2023-11-06 05:30 +0100
                      Re: xorriso and SIGTERM/SIGINT handler "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2023-11-06 09:00 +0100
          Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-04 23:10 +0100
    Re: How to use dmsetuup? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-11-04 10:40 +0100
      Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-04 13:30 +0100
    Re: How to use dmsetuup? Franco Martelli <martellif67@gmail.com> - 2023-11-06 16:50 +0100
      Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-06 17:30 +0100
      Re: How to use dmsetuup? Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2023-11-08 00:50 +0100
        Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-08 01:30 +0100
          Re: How to use dmsetuup? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-08 06:10 +0100
          Re: How to use dmsetuup? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-08 06:40 +0100
            Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-08 11:30 +0100
              Re: How to use dmsetuup? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2023-11-08 19:10 +0100
                Re: How to use dmsetuup? jeremy ardley <jeremy.ardley@gmail.com> - 2023-11-08 23:00 +0100
              Re: How to use dmsetuup? Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2023-11-09 02:10 +0100
              Re: How to use dmsetuup? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-11 01:50 +0100
                Re: How to use dmsetuup? gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-11 04:30 +0100
                  Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2023-11-11 18:00 +0100
                    Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-11-11 18:10 +0100
                      Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] Pocket <pocket@columbus.rr.com> - 2023-11-11 18:40 +0100
                        Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-11-11 19:50 +0100
                          Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] Pocket <pocket@columbus.rr.com> - 2023-11-11 21:50 +0100
                            Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-11 22:40 +0100
                          Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-11-11 22:10 +0100
                            Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-11-12 00:30 +0100
                            Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2023-11-12 00:40 +0100
                    Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] fxkl47BF@protonmail.com - 2023-11-11 18:30 +0100
                    Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-12 01:10 +0100
                      Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-11-12 05:40 +0100
                        Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@debian-user.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2023-11-13 11:40 +0100
                          Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-11-13 14:00 +0100
                      Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-11-12 14:20 +0100
                        Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-12 19:40 +0100
                      Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2023-11-12 18:20 +0100
                        Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-11-12 20:30 +0100
                          Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-11-12 21:20 +0100
                            Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-13 06:40 +0100
                              Linux supprt (was: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?]) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-11-13 13:50 +0100
                                Re: Linux supprt (was: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to  use dmsetuup?]) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2023-11-13 16:00 +0100
                                  Re: Linux supprt Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-11-13 16:40 +0100
                                    Re: Linux supprt Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2023-11-13 22:50 +0100
                                Re: Linux supprt John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2023-11-13 19:00 +0100
                                  Re: Linux supprt <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-13 19:40 +0100
                                    Re: Linux supprt Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2023-11-14 18:40 +0100
                                      Re: Linux supprt <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-14 18:50 +0100
                            Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?] Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2023-11-13 15:10 +0100
          Re: How to use dmsetuup? Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2023-11-09 01:50 +0100
            Re: How to use dmsetuup? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-11-09 16:20 +0100
              Re: How to use dmsetuup? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-11-09 17:50 +0100

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#263465 — Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> My home NAS is in a completely different category:
> an ARM SBC with on-board SATA.  Much smaller, extremely quiet (no fan),
> and between 5W and 10W of power consumption depending on whether it's
> mostly idle (the overwhelmingly common case) or not.

So which ARM SBC and does it run stock Debian? And how many SATA ports?

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#263474 — Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?]

Anssi Saari [2023-11-13 12:34:13] wrote:
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> My home NAS is in a completely different category:
>> an ARM SBC with on-board SATA.  Much smaller, extremely quiet (no fan),
>> and between 5W and 10W of power consumption depending on whether it's
>> mostly idle (the overwhelmingly common case) or not.
> So which ARM SBC and does it run stock Debian? And how many SATA ports?

In my case, I'm currently using a BananaPi at one place and at the other
I upgraded to an ODroid-M1.  In both cases there's only a single SATA
port (tho the ODroid has an nvme-M2 port as well which I'm not
currently using).  The ODroid-M1 is the main "backup server" and the
other holds my backup's backup.

Both run stock Debian stable (in both cases the installation was
manual/tricky rather than via debian-installer :-( ).

None of the services they provide are sufficiently important to require
something like RAID, which makes things easier.

And yes, I've had problems with the BananaPi's power supply (I had to
try various power blocks *and* cables until finding ones good enough
for reliable operation :-( ).
The ODroid's power supply seems significantly better in this respect.


        Stefan

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#263410 — Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?]

Hello,

On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 04:01:47PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:
> SSD RAID10 is very impressive when everything else matches.  Backups over a
> Gigabit LAN onto SATA III SSD RAID10 does not make sense because Gigabit
> Ethernet is rated for 1 Gbps read/ write and a SATA III SSD RAID10 is rated
> for 24 Gbps read and 12 Gbps write.  I would put HDD's in the backup server
> and put the SSD's in the workstation.

I agree with you when it comes to systems that are used purely for
backups in a style that mimics tape backup, i.e. rare need for
random access, which from what I understand does cover Gene's
situation as Gene is used to using Amanda for backups, which is a
(virtual) tape paradigm.

However, especially in a home setting, people often ask more of "the
server", turning it into something that isn't entirely, or even
primarily, a backup server. If those uses involve random access, SSD
of some kind will be very beneficial.

Also there are quite a few backup technologies that do use random
access a lot. A venerable one often mentioned on this list is
rsnapshot or its basic implementation using rsync. This walks the
entire backup tree at every iteration checking metadata and creating
hardlinks. The period of time spent deciding what to back up and how
often massively exceeds the time spent transferring and writing the
data with these systems. They will also massively benefit from low
latency storage on SSD.

So just as a word of caution -- and I know you know this, David -- I
want to say check how much random access is going on, before
deciding rotational media will cut it.

Thanks,
Andy

PS I stated this before and I have to say it again though: while
   building a dedicated backup system seems like a great idea for
   Gene's use case, the practical situation for Gene is that he's
   been trying for literal years now to make a very simple RAID10
   mdadm work on perfectly serviceable hardware. This should be a
   simple task, but it's not gone well for him and this list is
   unable to get to the bottom of why (I include myself in that, but
   I think it reflects more on communications difficulties than a
   shortcoming of Linux mdadm). I am at a loss as to why, given
   those facts, people are still advising Gene to build an entire
   new system out of parts. It makes sense for the use case but not
   for the user. I don't think it's supportable. For this user I
   would have to still stand by my advice of buying an off-the-shelf
   NAS.

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#263439 — Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?]

On 11/12/23 05:15, Andy Smith wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 04:01:47PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:
>> SSD RAID10 is very impressive when everything else matches.  Backups over a
>> Gigabit LAN onto SATA III SSD RAID10 does not make sense because Gigabit
>> Ethernet is rated for 1 Gbps read/ write and a SATA III SSD RAID10 is rated
>> for 24 Gbps read and 12 Gbps write.  I would put HDD's in the backup server
>> and put the SSD's in the workstation.
> 
> I agree with you when it comes to systems that are used purely for
> backups in a style that mimics tape backup, i.e. rare need for
> random access, which from what I understand does cover Gene's
> situation as Gene is used to using Amanda for backups, which is a
> (virtual) tape paradigm.
> 
> However, especially in a home setting, people often ask more of "the
> server", turning it into something that isn't entirely, or even
> primarily, a backup server. If those uses involve random access, SSD
> of some kind will be very beneficial.
> 
> Also there are quite a few backup technologies that do use random
> access a lot. A venerable one often mentioned on this list is
> rsnapshot or its basic implementation using rsync. This walks the
> entire backup tree at every iteration checking metadata and creating
> hardlinks. The period of time spent deciding what to back up and how
> often massively exceeds the time spent transferring and writing the
> data with these systems. They will also massively benefit from low
> latency storage on SSD.
> 
> So just as a word of caution -- and I know you know this, David -- I
> want to say check how much random access is going on, before
> deciding rotational media will cut it.


I think we agree that HDD's are slower for many (most?) backup/ restore 
use-cases.  But, I think the slowness is acceptable for the off-hours, 
once a day backup use-case and for the infrequent file restore use-case 
that I anticipate Gene will perform.


> PS I stated this before and I have to say it again though: while
>     building a dedicated backup system seems like a great idea for
>     Gene's use case, the practical situation for Gene is that he's
>     been trying for literal years now to make a very simple RAID10
>     mdadm work on perfectly serviceable hardware. This should be a
>     simple task, but it's not gone well for him and this list is
>     unable to get to the bottom of why (I include myself in that, but
>     I think it reflects more on communications difficulties than a
>     shortcoming of Linux mdadm). 


There appears to be consensus to set up one storage device with one 
partition and one ext4 file system, and test the various applications 
for file access issues.  It is up to Gene to decide if, what, where, 
when, and how.


>     I am at a loss as to why, given
>     those facts, people are still advising Gene to build an entire
>     new system out of parts. It makes sense for the use case but not
>     for the user. I don't think it's supportable. For this user I
>     would have to still stand by my advice of buying an off-the-shelf
>     NAS.


I think we agree that everyone needs backups.


It is my impression that most of Gene's eggs are in one basket (the 
computer with the Asus Prime Z370 A II motherboard) and that Amanda has 
been broken for a while (?).  I would celebrate Gene implementing 
working backups by any means on any device and any media.  Again, Gene 
decides.


David

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#263428 — Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?]

On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 04:01:47PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:
> On 11/11/23 08:52, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 10:22:07PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > > On 11/10/23 19:46, David Christensen wrote:
> > > > On 11/8/23 02:20, gene heskett wrote:
> > 
> > Are these 2TB SSDs or hard disks? I would counsel very strongly indeed
> > against using any ARM-based single board computer as a RAID device on
> > USB connections - they're just *not* up to it.
> 

This at least partly because the USB devices on, say, a Raspberry Pi
tend to share I/O and resources. On a Pi, USB3 takes away from the 
Ethernet, for example.

> 
> On 11/11/23 09:05, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > I don't think the issue is whether they're ARM based.
> >
> > The issue is simply how you connect the disks: in my experience, disks
> > connected via USB are simply not quite up to a 24/7 situation,
> > especially if the disk is USB-powered.
> 

Right.
> 
> >
> > I have 4 SSD drives connected to a single RPI4 currently, using a
> > powered USB hub.
> >

SSD significantly different to HDD. 
> 
> 
> On 11/11/23 10:47, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > Hmm...  so maybe the USB connection is not directly relevant either
> > and the real issue is the power?
> 
> 
> An obvious difference between internal and external drives is physical
> protection.  Internal drives and cables are protected.  Everything gets
> power from the same source (PSU, PCU fed by dual PSU, etc.).  External
> drives, cables, and power adapters can be moved, yanked, disconnected,
> dropped, kicked, subjected to electrostatic discharge, etc..  There are more
> parts to fail and more opportunities for failure with external drives than
> with internal drives.
> 

This is what I meant: this is why the devices from QNAP / Synology that
are plug and play NAS are also built this way. The Synology devices
can take lots of added modules, seemingly - it all seems expensive
but these are designed for plugging in  and the whole thing "just working".

> 
> It is not uncommon for communications establishment to fail with external
> drives.  Similarly, communications re-establishment when the computer and/or
> drive resume from a power saving mode.  Writing and testing this kind of
> software is difficult and you need people with both both CS and EE skills.
> There is an astronomical number of combinations to design and test for.  The
> code runs rarely.  For reliable 24x365 operations, the challenge is
> eliminating everything that can cause communications establishment/
> re-establishment -- operator steps, computer configuration, drive
> configuration, power failures, cooling failures, etc..  If you can find and
> eliminate all of them, a USB external drive can stay connected a very long
> time.
> 

*If* is very much the word, I think.
> 
> 
> I have always liked ATX tower cases with lots of drive bays, both internal
> and external.  Over time, more products have become available with good
> cooling and low noise.  I have not found a major computer manufacturer who
> makes servers with all of those features, so I build my own:
> 
> * Fractal Design Define R5 case
> * 3 @ Fractal Design low-speed 140 mm fans
> * Fractal Design Ion+ 2 Platinum 660 W power supply
> * Intel S1200V3RP motherboard
> * Intel Xeon E3-1200 v3 series processors
> * Dual channel ECC memory
> * LSI 9207-8i HBA with "IT mode" non-RAID firmware
> * Seagate Barracuda and Constellation ES.2 HDD's
> * Intel 520 Series SSD's
> * StarTech 2.5" and 3.5" mobile racks
> * Cable Matters black SATA 6 Gbps cables with locking connectors
> 
> 
> They are not cheap, small, or light, but they perform well, are easy to work
> on, are reasonably quiet, and everything stays cool.  They have plenty of
> capacity for future upgrades.
> 

Nice parts list and good suggestions.
> 
> 
> SSD RAID10 is very impressive when everything else matches.  Backups over a
> Gigabit LAN onto SATA III SSD RAID10 does not make sense because Gigabit
> Ethernet is rated for 1 Gbps read/ write and a SATA III SSD RAID10 is rated
> for 24 Gbps read and 12 Gbps write.  I would put HDD's in the backup server
> and put the SSD's in the workstation.
> 
> 
> David
>

there's no doubt that you can do the same with some ARM boards - maybe
the RockPro which has PCIe?? but not with the majority.

Anyway, let's leave folks to build what works for them: the one thing
I've learned from much of this list is that we're all unique in our
requirements, even if we have much in common.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy 

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#263446 — Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?]

On 11/12/23 09:15, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 04:01:47PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:
>> An obvious difference between internal and external drives is physical
>> protection.  Internal drives and cables are protected.  Everything gets
>> power from the same source (PSU, PCU fed by dual PSU, etc.).  External
>> drives, cables, and power adapters can be moved, yanked, disconnected,
>> dropped, kicked, subjected to electrostatic discharge, etc..  There are more
>> parts to fail and more opportunities for failure with external drives than
>> with internal drives.
> 
> This is what I meant: this is why the devices from QNAP / Synology that
> are plug and play NAS are also built this way. The Synology devices
> can take lots of added modules, seemingly - it all seems expensive
> but these are designed for plugging in  and the whole thing "just working".


FOSS is great for learning by doing, but commercial products can be a 
better choice when a family member, a friend, a neighbor, and especially 
clients and employers, want a computer, a server, a network gateway, 
etc..  It is ironically satisfying when those commercial products have 
FOSS on the inside.  :-)


David

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#263449 — Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?]

> FOSS is great for learning by doing, but commercial products can be a better
> choice when a family member, a friend, a neighbor, and especially clients
> and employers, want a computer, a server, a network gateway, etc..  It is
> ironically satisfying when those commercial products have FOSS on the
> inside.  :-)

Indeed, technically-inclined people are often better served with Free
Software, and Free Software can also be a great choice for large
corporations who can either have on-site techsupport people or can hire
external support, but it is a lot more difficult to find commercial
support for merely non-techie user.  This is mostly the domain of
proprietary software :-(


        Stefan

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#263458 — Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?]

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 03:17:17PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > FOSS is great for learning by doing, but commercial products can be a better
> > choice when a family member, a friend, a neighbor, and especially clients
> > and employers, want a computer, a server, a network gateway, etc..  It is
> > ironically satisfying when those commercial products have FOSS on the
> > inside.  :-)
> 
> Indeed, technically-inclined people are often better served with Free
> Software, and Free Software can also be a great choice for large
> corporations who can either have on-site techsupport people or can hire
> external support, but it is a lot more difficult to find commercial
> support for merely non-techie user.  This is mostly the domain of
> proprietary software :-(

The way out of this is having strong local user groups, which is,
of course, easier in densely populated areas.

In Berlin, e.g., there were several linux user groups which had
"open days" (some even once a week) where people went with their
hardware and got it fixed. And got to know nice people. Often
at no cost.

In the smaller city I live now there is at least one such place.

Support your local free software support group :-)

Cheers
-- 
t

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#263473 — Linux supprt (was: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?])

>> Indeed, technically-inclined people are often better served with Free
>> Software, and Free Software can also be a great choice for large
>> corporations who can either have on-site techsupport people or can hire
>> external support, but it is a lot more difficult to find commercial
>> support for merely non-techie user.  This is mostly the domain of
>> proprietary software :-(
>
> The way out of this is having strong local user groups, which is,
> of course, easier in densely populated areas.

I think this still only covers a small fraction of the problem.
It just lowers the bar of the "technically-inclined" limit.
I think many more people just want to have someone they can call on
the phone to help them get through their yearly technical problem.


        Stefan

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#263486 — Re: Linux supprt (was: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?])

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 7:48 AM Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>
> >> Indeed, technically-inclined people are often better served with Free
> >> Software, and Free Software can also be a great choice for large
> >> corporations who can either have on-site techsupport people or can hire
> >> external support, but it is a lot more difficult to find commercial
> >> support for merely non-techie user.  This is mostly the domain of
> >> proprietary software :-(
> >
> > The way out of this is having strong local user groups, which is,
> > of course, easier in densely populated areas.
>
> I think this still only covers a small fraction of the problem.
> It just lowers the bar of the "technically-inclined" limit.
> I think many more people just want to have someone they can call on
> the phone to help them get through their yearly technical problem.

In my experience I get much better support from the user community of
an open source product then I get from paid support of a commercial
product. Frequently I know more about the product than the person I am
dealing with.

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#263490 — Re: Linux supprt

> In my experience I get much better support from the user community of
> an open source product then I get from paid support of a commercial
> product. Frequently I know more about the product than the person I am
> dealing with.

Same for me.  But I suspect we're in the minority.


        Stefan

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#263505 — Re: Linux supprt

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:56 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
wrote:

> > In my experience I get much better support from the user community of
> > an open source product then I get from paid support of a commercial
> > product. Frequently I know more about the product than the person I am
> > dealing with.
>
> Same for me.  But I suspect we're in the minority.
>

I'll echo that. And yet in those work situations where I have needed
support for licensed Linux products from Red Hat/IBM, Canonical and AWS,
the support has almost always been better than online community support.
Which of course I have also leaned on. And community support is  better
than 90% + of support for other software products, for example dealing with
BMC recently.

IOW supported Linux seems to be better supported than any other software
these days. Both by vendors and by the community.

        Stefan
>
>

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#263500 — Re: Linux supprt

 Stefan Monnier writes:
> I think this still only covers a small fraction of the problem.  It
> just lowers the bar of the "technically-inclined" limit.  I think many
> more people just want to have someone they can call on the phone to
> help them get through their yearly technical problem.

I think that to most people their "devices" (cellphone, desktop,
whatever) are appliances. They have no more interest in learning about
the internals of those than in the internals of their washing machines.
-- 
John Hasler 
john@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#263502 — Re: Linux supprt

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 08:17:20AM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
>  Stefan Monnier writes:
> > I think this still only covers a small fraction of the problem.  It
> > just lowers the bar of the "technically-inclined" limit.  I think many
> > more people just want to have someone they can call on the phone to
> > help them get through their yearly technical problem.

Very true. Still a long way to go ;-)

> I think that to most people their "devices" (cellphone, desktop,
> whatever) are appliances. They have no more interest in learning about
> the internals of those than in the internals of their washing machines.

In one of our local mailing list someone posted a request for help
to exchange his iPhone's and iPad's batteries. He has an appointment
in the local hacker space :-)

Little by little...

But yes, in a way convenience can drown out freedom. See that other
thread in this mailing list about mail providers. All people flocking
to gmail although it's clear that Google would like to kill mail
as we know it.

Cheers
-- 
t

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#263534 — Re: Linux supprt

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 12:35 PM <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

>
> But yes, in a way convenience can drown out freedom. See that other
> thread in this mailing list about mail providers. All people flocking
> to gmail although it's clear that Google would like to kill mail
> as we know it.
>

But mail as "they" know it has nothing to do with transport or networking.
They know it as a service not as anything else. Like electricity. The
"freedom" to exchange email is what matters to them.

Just about everyone in the developed countries permits and is ok with their
electric/telecom/heating service coming from a monopoly, oligoploy, or
government-owned entity. So the same situation for email is ok with them as
long as the cost is low.

Cheers
> --
> t
>

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#263535 — Re: Linux supprt

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On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 11:36:18AM -0600, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 12:35 PM <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
> 
> >
> > But yes, in a way convenience can drown out freedom [...]

> But mail as "they" know it has nothing to do with transport or networking.
> They know it as a service not as anything else. Like electricity. The
> "freedom" to exchange email is what matters to them.
> 
> Just about everyone in the developed countries permits and is ok with their
> electric/telecom/heating service coming from a monopoly, oligoploy, or
> government-owned entity. So the same situation for email is ok with them as
> long as the cost is low.

These days, snuffing out freedom happens more subtly.

Cheers
-- 
t

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#263478 — Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?]

On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 15:17:17 -0500
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:

> > FOSS is great for learning by doing, but commercial products can be
> > a better choice when a family member, a friend, a neighbor, and
> > especially clients and employers, want a computer, a server, a
> > network gateway, etc..  It is ironically satisfying when those
> > commercial products have FOSS on the inside.  :-)  
> 
> Indeed, technically-inclined people are often better served with Free
> Software, and Free Software can also be a great choice for large
> corporations who can either have on-site techsupport people or can
> hire external support, but it is a lot more difficult to find
> commercial support for merely non-techie user.  This is mostly the
> domain of proprietary software :-(
> 
>
And not always then. I did the IT work for a tiny company that used MS
Small Business Server, and they were entitled to support from MS. I
found the SBS user newsgroup (sponsored by MS) to be much better for
support help. A few of the regulars were MS employees, but there were
several other frequent helpers who were not.

-- 
Joe

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#263273

On 11/7/23 17:19, gene heskett wrote:
> On 11/7/23 18:42, Tom Dial wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 11/6/23 08:47, Franco Martelli wrote:
>>> On 03/11/23 at 17:27, gene heskett wrote:
>>>> Greetings all;
>>>> As usual, the man page may as well be written in swahili. The NDE syndrome, meaning No D-----d Examples.
>>>>
>>>> I have those 2 2T SSD's with a gpt partition table on both, allocated as sdc1 and sdk1, formatted to ext4, named and labeled as lvm1 and lvm2.
>>>> Temp mounted as sdc1 and sdk1 to /mnt/lvm1 and /mnt/lvm2
>>>>
>>>> How do I create a single managed volume of labels lvm1 and lvm2 of these to make a single volume that I can then rsynch /home to it, then switch fstab to mount it as /home on a reboot?
>>
>> You do not put a file system on the partitions you are using as LVM physical volumes. And you do not mount them.
>>
> What do I do if a gpt partition table has already been made and an ext4 system is already installed? IOW just how "bare" a disk is needed? Is writing a null gpt sufficient?
Hi Gene,

You can ignore them, or not, as you like. If you want, you could overwrite them with zeros or a pattern of your choice; I would not bother.

Logical volume creation and mkfs operations on the logical volume(s) will replace them.

Tom

> 
> Thank you Tom.
> 
>> The rough procedure is
>>
>> Create LVM physical volumes on raw disk partitions using pvcreate  (or lvm pvcreate) e. g.,
>>
>> pvcreate /dev/sdc1
>> pvcreate /dev/sdk1
>>
>> This gives you two physical volumes to use to create one or two volume groups
>> Create an LVM volume group using vgcreate (or lvm vgcreate), e. g.,
>>
>> vgcreate home-vg sdc1 sdk1
>>
>> This gives you a volume group named "home-vg" with 4.4 TB raw storage in which you can create one or more logical volumes.
>> Create the logical volumes you want. It appears you want only one, to mounted at /home. For instance,
>>
>> lvcreate --size 1024G -n home-volume home-vg
>>
>> will create a 1 TB logical volume, represented under dev by /dev/home-vg/home-volume
>>
>> Put a file system on the logical volume in the normal way, such  as:
>>
>> mkfs -t ext4 /dev/home-vg/home-volume
>>
>> mount the new volume (and put it in /etc/fstab for mounting at boot:
>>
>> mount /dev/home-vg/home-volume /home
>>
>> Doing this probably will not give you what you want. (For instance, if I remember right, the entire logical volume would, in this case, wind up on the first-named physical volume vgcreate command.) The man pages for lvm and its subcommands offer a lot of options for things like storage allocation between/among multiple physical volumes that make up a volume group, the size of allocation units, such things as RAID level, and a large number of other properties. You probably know what you want, and from what I've seen on this list seem quite able to fish it up out of the man pages, some of which have usefully suggestive examples.
>>
>> OTOH, I would recommend ZFS for this based on experience with LVM and ZFS in both commercial (e. g., HP-UX and SolaRIS) and Linux environments. Both have learning curves that I would judge comparable, both are flexible and fairly easy to manage, and both are or can be highly resilient. On the whole, though, I prefer ZFS.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tom Dial
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> How about to use debian-installer: burn the dvd image of Bookworm 12.2, put into the DVD drive then reboot the system. You have to choose "Expert Install" and it's all menu driven from RAID device creation to LVM logical device and logical volume names.
>>> I don't know if you can do that from debian-installer rescue disk mode.
>>>
>>> HTH
>>> kinds regards
>>>
>>
>> .
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.

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#263286

Hello,

On Wed, Nov 08, 2023 at 05:19:01PM -0700, Tom Dial wrote:
> On 11/7/23 17:19, gene heskett wrote:
> > What do I do if a gpt partition table has already been made and
> > an ext4 system is already installed? IOW just how "bare" a disk
> > is needed? Is writing a null gpt sufficient?

> You can ignore them, or not, as you like. If you want, you could
> overwrite them with zeros or a pattern of your choice; I would not
> bother.

You do need to be very careful if you have put a GPT label on a
device and then incompletely wiped the device in order to use it for
something else that doesn't involve a GPT label.

The reason for that is, there are several motherboards (EFI
firmwares?) out there that consider a missing GPT label with a
backup GPT present to be an indication that the device is corrupt.
They then helpfully copy the backup GPT back to the start of the
disk, corrupting any data that was there already.

Example:

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18541493

"wipefs -a /dev/sda" shold clear the GPT without having to write to
the entire device.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#263290

Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Wed, Nov 08, 2023 at 05:19:01PM -0700, Tom Dial wrote:
> > On 11/7/23 17:19, gene heskett wrote:  
> > > What do I do if a gpt partition table has already been made and
> > > an ext4 system is already installed? IOW just how "bare" a disk
> > > is needed? Is writing a null gpt sufficient?  
> 
> > You can ignore them, or not, as you like. If you want, you could
> > overwrite them with zeros or a pattern of your choice; I would not
> > bother.  
> 
> You do need to be very careful if you have put a GPT label on a
> device and then incompletely wiped the device in order to use it for
> something else that doesn't involve a GPT label.
> 
> The reason for that is, there are several motherboards (EFI
> firmwares?) out there that consider a missing GPT label with a
> backup GPT present to be an indication that the device is corrupt.
> They then helpfully copy the backup GPT back to the start of the
> disk, corrupting any data that was there already.

Yes, that kind of thing is why I always put a couple of small, unused
partitions at the start and end of a disk that's to be used for LVM.

Partition the disk as normal using GPT and then put LVM on the middle
partition.

> Example:
> 
>     https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18541493
> 
> "wipefs -a /dev/sda" shold clear the GPT without having to write to
> the entire device.
> 
> Thanks,
> Andy
> 

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