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How to compare contents of two folders against third one?

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  How to compare contents of two folders against third one? "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2023-11-01 16:10 +0100
    Re: How to compare contents of two folders against third one? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-01 16:10 +0100
      Re: How to compare contents of two folders against third one? "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2023-11-02 07:50 +0100
        Re: How to compare contents of two folders against third one? "Russell L. Harris" <russell@rlharris.org> - 2023-11-02 09:00 +0100
    Re: How to compare contents of two folders against third one? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-01 19:00 +0100
      How to compare one folder to one directory (was: How to compare contents of two folders against third one?) "Loris Bennett" <loris.bennett@fu-berlin.de> - 2023-11-02 08:20 +0100
        Re: How to compare one folder to one directory (was: How to compare  contents of two folders against third one?) Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2023-11-02 08:50 +0100
        Re: How to compare one folder to one directory (was: How to compare  contents of two folders against third one?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-02 09:00 +0100
          Re: How to compare one folder to one directory (was: How to compare  contents of two folders against third one?) Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2023-11-02 09:50 +0100
            Re: How to compare one folder to one directory (was: How to compare  contents of two folders against third one?) Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-02 10:00 +0100
              Re: How to compare one folder to one directory (was: How to   compare contents of two folders against third one?) yxcv@vienna.at - 2023-11-02 10:10 +0100
          Re: How to compare one folder to one directory John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2023-11-02 15:20 +0100
            Re: How to compare one folder to one directory <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-02 15:30 +0100
              Re: How to compare one folder to one directory "Loris Bennett" <loris.bennett@fu-berlin.de> - 2023-11-02 16:20 +0100
                Re: How to compare one folder to one directory debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-11-02 22:00 +0100
                  Re: How to compare one folder to one directory Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-02 22:10 +0100
                Re: How to compare one folder to one directory John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2023-11-03 03:50 +0100
                  Re: How to compare one folder to one directory Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-11-03 04:20 +0100
                    On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-03 06:40 +0100
                      Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-03 08:50 +0100
                        Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] tomas@tuxteam.de - 2023-11-03 09:00 +0100
                          Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2023-11-07 03:50 +0100
                            Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-07 06:40 +0100
                              Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2023-11-07 12:00 +0100
                        Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] "Loris Bennett" <loris.bennett@fu-berlin.de> - 2023-11-03 16:10 +0100
                          Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-03 16:20 +0100
                            Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-03 17:30 +0100
                            Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] "Loris Bennett" <loris.bennett@fu-berlin.de> - 2023-11-06 17:00 +0100
                              Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-06 17:10 +0100
                                Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2023-11-06 18:20 +0100
                          Re: [OFFTOPIC] On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-11-03 16:40 +0100
                            Re: [OFFTOPIC] On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to  compare...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-03 18:40 +0100
                              Re: [OFFTOPIC] On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to  compare...] John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2023-11-07 03:40 +0100
                                Re: [OFFTOPIC] On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to  compare...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-07 06:40 +0100
                          Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-03 18:30 +0100
                        Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...] Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2023-11-03 18:30 +0100
                          Re: On folders vs. directories and history "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2023-11-03 19:20 +0100
                    Re: How to compare one folder to one directory Mihamina RKTMB <mihamina@atscom.io> - 2023-11-03 09:10 +0100
                    Re: How to compare one folder to one directory "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2023-11-03 11:40 +0100
                      Re: How to compare one folder to one directory Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-03 11:50 +0100
                    Re: How to compare one folder to one directory John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2023-11-07 04:20 +0100
        Re: How to compare one folder to one directory "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2023-11-02 10:20 +0100
        Re: How to compare one folder to one directory (was: How to compare  contents of two folders against third one?) Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-11-03 01:40 +0100
          On weeds and bikesheds [was: How to compare one folder to one  directory] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-03 06:30 +0100
      Re: How to compare contents of two folders against third one? "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2023-11-02 08:40 +0100
        Re: How to compare contents of two folders against third one? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-02 08:50 +0100
        Re: How to compare contents of two folders against third one? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-02 09:10 +0100
          Re: How to compare contents of two folders against third one? "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2023-11-02 10:50 +0100
            Re: How to compare contents of two folders against third one? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-02 11:00 +0100
            Re: How to compare contents of two folders against third one? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-02 11:10 +0100
            Re: How to compare contents of two folders against third one? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-11-02 16:20 +0100
      All the unicorns are dead on Linux (was: How to compare contents of  two folders against third one?) Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-11-03 17:00 +0100
        Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux (was: How to compare contents  of two folders against third one?) tomas@tuxteam.de - 2023-11-03 18:50 +0100
        Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux (was: How to compare contents  of two folders against third one?) Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-03 19:20 +0100
        Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux (was: How to compare contents  of two folders against third one?) Paul Duncan <paul.d@soi-team.org> - 2023-11-07 12:00 +0100
          Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2023-11-07 15:30 +0100
            Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-07 15:40 +0100
              Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2023-11-07 17:00 +0100
                Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-07 17:10 +0100
                  Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Pocket <pocket@columbus.rr.com> - 2023-11-07 17:50 +0100
                  Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2023-11-07 20:00 +0100
                    Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-07 20:30 +0100
                    Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-07 20:50 +0100
                Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2023-11-07 19:00 +0100
                  Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-07 20:40 +0100
                    Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux tomas@tuxteam.de - 2023-11-07 20:50 +0100
                      Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2023-11-07 22:30 +0100
                        Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-11-07 22:30 +0100
                          Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2023-11-07 23:00 +0100
                          Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net> - 2023-11-07 23:50 +0100
                      Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-07 23:00 +0100
                    Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-11-07 20:50 +0100
                      Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net> - 2023-11-07 21:00 +0100
                        Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2023-11-07 21:40 +0100
                          Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net> - 2023-11-07 22:00 +0100
                            Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2023-11-07 22:10 +0100
                            Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Pocket <pocket@columbus.rr.com> - 2023-11-08 01:00 +0100
                            Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-11-08 13:40 +0100
                              Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-11-08 14:10 +0100
                Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-07 21:30 +0100
            Re: All the unicorns are dead on Linux gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-11-07 21:00 +0100

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#262995 — How to compare contents of two folders against third one?

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Hello everyone.

I have a "/source-folder/" which contains very large tree of folders and 
files.
I've manually copied a set of folders and files from it to a 
"/destination-folder-one/" and
copied another set of folders and files to a "/destination-folder-two/".

Now, is there an effective way to compare combined contents of two 
folders "/destination-folder-one/" and
"/destination-folder-two/" against a "/source-folder/" to show if there 
is anything that was left out?

For now I've tried "diff" and "rsync" to accomplish this.
But diff apparently can't compare combined contents of two folders with 
another folder.

    $ diff -r /destination-folder-one/ /destination-folder-two/
    /source-folder/
    diff: extra operand '/source-folder/'
    diff: Try 'diff --help' for more information.


And rsync scans folders and files that are already exist inside both 
destination folders and "/source-folder/" and outputs nothing.

    $ rsync -r --size-only --dry-run /destination-folder-one/
    /destination-folder-two/ /source-folder/
    $


I could go on a wild chase to "ls" contents of both destination folders, 
concatenate the results, sort them somehow,
do the same to a source folder and compare the resulting list files. 
Also create test cases to check if results are reliable.
But before I do that, is there a better way to accomplish the task?
Maybe some parameter for diff or rsync that I missed or another utility?

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

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#262996

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Hi.

Alexander V. Makartsev (12023-11-01):
> I have a "/source-folder/" which contains very large tree of folders and
> files.

The word is “directory”, not “folder”.

> Now, is there an effective way to compare combined contents of two folders
> "/destination-folder-one/" and
> "/destination-folder-two/" against a "/source-folder/" to show if there is
> anything that was left out?

When you say “combined content”, you mean merged, right? There are a lot
of different ways to combine.

> I could go on a wild chase to "ls" contents of both destination folders,
> concatenate the results, sort them somehow,
> do the same to a source folder and compare the resulting list files. Also
> create test cases to check if results are reliable.

Well, yes, that would be the simplest, probably faster than writing this
very mail:

vimdiff =(cd src && find | sort) =({ cd dst1 && find ; cd dst2 && find } | sort)

and voilà.

> But before I do that, is there a better way to accomplish the task?

You could mount -t overlay your two destination directories together and
try rsync or diff.

> Maybe some parameter for diff or rsync that I missed or another utility?

I doubt it, it is too specific a use case.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#263024

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On 01.11.2023 20:07, Nicolas George wrote:
> Hi.
>
> Alexander V. Makartsev (12023-11-01):
>> I have a "/source-folder/" which contains very large tree of folders and
>> files.
> The word is “directory”, not “folder”.
>
Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't meant to invoke wrath of the ancients.
I thought about it and eventually decided to name sample directories - 
folders.
Mostly because I didn't wanted to answer possible questions like "wtf is 
a directory?".
And I must to warn you, if you open Xfce file manager (Thunar), that 
blasphemous word "folder" will be everywhere!

>> Now, is there an effective way to compare combined contents of two folders
>> "/destination-folder-one/" and
>> "/destination-folder-two/" against a "/source-folder/" to show if there is
>> anything that was left out?
> When you say “combined content”, you mean merged, right? There are a lot
> of different ways to combine.
Yes, that is exactly what I meant.

> You could mount -t overlay your two destination directories together and
> try rsync or diff.
>
I've never heard about "mount -t overlay" before and it did the trick.
Thanks for suggestion.

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

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#263031

fslint (no longer in Debian) and dupeguru may be of interest to you.
I have used both.

RLH

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#263005

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On Wed, Nov 01, 2023 at 08:01:19PM +0500, Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:
> Hello everyone.
> 
> I have a "/source-folder/" which contains very large tree of folders and
> files.
> I've manually copied a set of folders and files from it to a
> "/destination-folder-one/" and
> copied another set of folders and files to a "/destination-folder-two/".
> 
> Now, is there an effective way to compare combined contents of two folders
> "/destination-folder-one/" and
> "/destination-folder-two/" against a "/source-folder/" to show if there is
> anything that was left out?

I concur with Nicolas: every time you say "folder", a unicorn dies.

You mean: the union of dest-dir-1 and dest-dir-2 should equal your
source-dir?

  Try rsync -a source-dir/ dest-dir-2/ --compare-dest=dest-dir-1/

This one will even dutifully copy those files from source-dir which
can't be found either in dest-dir-1 or in dest-dir-2.

If you only want to /see/ what would be copied (always a good idea
when trying untested advice from random folks on the internets :)
there's the option --dry-run. Perhaps add the option -v.

Rsync is magic.

Cheers
-- 
t

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#263025 — How to compare one folder to one directory (was: How to compare contents of two folders against third one?)

<tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:

> I concur with Nicolas: every time you say "folder", a unicorn dies.

What's the objection to 'folder'?  I don't use it myself, but it seems
fairly reasonable to me.  Many desktop environments use an old hanging
folder icon in their file browsers.

In German there are also two words: 'Ordner' (folder/binder) and 
'Verzeichnis' (directory/catalogue).  People also use both more or less
interchangeably.

Cheers,

Loris

-- 
This signature is currently under constuction.

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#263029 — Re: How to compare one folder to one directory (was: How to compare contents of two folders against third one?)

	Hi.

On Thu, Nov 02, 2023 at 07:50:16AM +0100, Loris Bennett wrote:
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> 
> > I concur with Nicolas: every time you say "folder", a unicorn dies.
> 
> What's the objection to 'folder'?

$ mkdir /tmp/4
$ stat /tmp/4 | head -2
  File: /tmp/4
  Size: 4096            Blocks: 8          IO Block: 4096 **directory**

If you refer to a filesystem object, using anything else but a real
object type name is wrong.

Reco

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#263032 — Re: How to compare one folder to one directory (was: How to compare contents of two folders against third one?)

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On Thu, Nov 02, 2023 at 07:50:16AM +0100, Loris Bennett wrote:
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> 
> > I concur with Nicolas: every time you say "folder", a unicorn dies.
> 
> What's the objection to 'folder'?  I don't use it myself, but it seems
> fairly reasonable to me.  Many desktop environments use an old hanging
> folder icon in their file browsers.

This is Microsoft jargon. Eek.

> In German there are also two words: 'Ordner' (folder/binder) and 
> 'Verzeichnis' (directory/catalogue).  People also use both more or less
> interchangeably.

Exactly. They internationalize their stuff, too.

Now don't get me started with Clippy ;-)

Cheers
-- 
t

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#263036 — Re: How to compare one folder to one directory (was: How to compare contents of two folders against third one?)

On 2 Nov 2023 08:54 +0100, from tomas@tuxteam.de:
>> What's the objection to 'folder'?  I don't use it myself, but it seems
>> fairly reasonable to me.  Many desktop environments use an old hanging
>> folder icon in their file browsers.
> 
> This is Microsoft jargon. Eek.

I don't have a reference handy, but I do distinctly recall reading
that Microsoft introduced the term "folder" specifically to also be
able to refer to a concept of "something which is _not_ a directory
but containing a collection of some kind of items".

Things like "My Computer", "Network Neighborhood", "Printers",
"Control Panel" and so on.

IBM also used the term "folder" no later than by OS/2 2.0 [1], but I'm
not sure how far-ranging their usage of the term was. That would be
contemporary with early betas of Windows 95, which introduced the term
in Microsoft's ecosystem (they used the term "folder" in mid-1993[2],
and Wikipedia puts a first OS/2 2.0 release at October 1991).

[1]: http://toastytech.com/guis/os220.html (bottom screenshot in
particular)

[2]: http://toastytech.com/guis/chic58.html

-- 
Michael Kjörling                     🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

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#263037 — Re: How to compare one folder to one directory (was: How to compare contents of two folders against third one?)

Michael Kjörling (12023-11-02):
> I don't have a reference handy, but I do distinctly recall reading
> that Microsoft introduced the term "folder" specifically to also be
> able to refer to a concept of "something which is _not_ a directory
> but containing a collection of some kind of items".
> 
> Things like "My Computer", "Network Neighborhood", "Printers",
> "Control Panel" and so on.
> 
> IBM also used the term "folder" no later than by OS/2 2.0 [1], but I'm
> not sure how far-ranging their usage of the term was. That would be
> contemporary with early betas of Windows 95, which introduced the term
> in Microsoft's ecosystem (they used the term "folder" in mid-1993[2],
> and Wikipedia puts a first OS/2 2.0 release at October 1991).

Exactly. The word “folder” belongs in the “computers are too complicated
for you so we'll make them guess what you want to do and pretend they're
easy but it's normal if they crash” mentality where we cannot get the
computer to do what you want because it is second-guessing our
instructions: vague and not suited for technical communication.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#263038 — Re: How to compare one folder to one directory (was: How to compare contents of two folders against third one?)

On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 09:59:20 +0100
  Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
> Michael Kjörling (12023-11-02):
>> I don't have a reference handy, but I do distinctly recall reading
>> that Microsoft introduced the term "folder" specifically to also be
>> able to refer to a concept of "something which is _not_ a directory
>> but containing a collection of some kind of items".
>> 
>> Things like "My Computer", "Network Neighborhood", "Printers",
>> "Control Panel" and so on.
>> 
>> IBM also used the term "folder" no later than by OS/2 2.0 [1], but 
>>I'm
>> not sure how far-ranging their usage of the term was. That would be
>> contemporary with early betas of Windows 95, which introduced the 
>>term
>> in Microsoft's ecosystem (they used the term "folder" in 
>>mid-1993[2],
>> and Wikipedia puts a first OS/2 2.0 release at October 1991).
> 
> Exactly. The word “folder” belongs in the “computers are too 
>complicated
> for you so we'll make them guess what you want to do and pretend 
>they're
> easy but it's normal if they crash” mentality where we cannot get 
>the
> computer to do what you want because it is second-guessing our
> instructions: vague and not suited for technical communication.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -- 
>  Nicolas George
> 
The language used is not English.

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#263044 — Re: How to compare one folder to one directory

Loris Bennett wrote:
> What's the objection to 'folder'?  I don't use it myself, but it seems
> fairly reasonable to me.  Many desktop environments use an old hanging
> folder icon in their file browsers.

tomas writes:
> This is Microsoft jargon.

It comes from the Xerox "desktop metaphor".  The idea was to hide scary
technical jargon behind familiar office jargon.
-- 
John Hasler 
john@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#263045 — Re: How to compare one folder to one directory

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On Thu, Nov 02, 2023 at 09:12:45AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> Loris Bennett wrote:
> > What's the objection to 'folder'?  I don't use it myself, but it seems
> > fairly reasonable to me.  Many desktop environments use an old hanging
> > folder icon in their file browsers.
> 
> tomas writes:
> > This is Microsoft jargon.
> 
> It comes from the Xerox "desktop metaphor".  The idea was to hide scary
> technical jargon behind familiar office jargon.

Yup -- Wikipedia says either Xerox or SRI.

Cheers
-- 
t

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#263046 — Re: How to compare one folder to one directory

<tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:

> On Thu, Nov 02, 2023 at 09:12:45AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
>> Loris Bennett wrote:
>> > What's the objection to 'folder'?  I don't use it myself, but it seems
>> > fairly reasonable to me.  Many desktop environments use an old hanging
>> > folder icon in their file browsers.
>> 
>> tomas writes:
>> > This is Microsoft jargon.
>> 
>> It comes from the Xerox "desktop metaphor".  The idea was to hide scary
>> technical jargon behind familiar office jargon.
>
> Yup -- Wikipedia says either Xerox or SRI.

Personally I don't see "directory" as being more scary or technical than
"folder".  They are both words from the pre-computer age which have been
repurposed, just as the term "computer" now no longer refers to a human
who performs computations.

-- 
This signature is currently under constuction.

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#263058 — Re: How to compare one folder to one directory

"Loris Bennett" <loris.bennett@fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> 
> > On Thu, Nov 02, 2023 at 09:12:45AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:  
> >> Loris Bennett wrote:  
> >> > What's the objection to 'folder'?  I don't use it myself, but it
> >> > seems fairly reasonable to me.  Many desktop environments use an
> >> > old hanging folder icon in their file browsers.  
> >> 
> >> tomas writes:  
> >> > This is Microsoft jargon.  
> >> 
> >> It comes from the Xerox "desktop metaphor".  The idea was to hide
> >> scary technical jargon behind familiar office jargon.  
> >
> > Yup -- Wikipedia says either Xerox or SRI.  
> 
> Personally I don't see "directory" as being more scary or technical
> than "folder".  They are both words from the pre-computer age which
> have been repurposed, just as the term "computer" now no longer
> refers to a human who performs computations.

While I belong to the 'directory is the correct term' school of
thought, I can see how the idea of a folder is a thing that contains
other things (and specifically files sometimes) appeals, whilst a
[telephone] directory is just a thick book.

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#263059 — Re: How to compare one folder to one directory

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> "Loris Bennett" <loris.bennett@fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> > Personally I don't see "directory" as being more scary or technical
> > than "folder".

Apparently, Americans are scared of words with more than two syllables.

debian-user@howorth.org.uk (12023-11-02):
> While I belong to the 'directory is the correct term' school of
> thought, I can see how the idea of a folder is a thing that contains
> other things (and specifically files sometimes) appeals, whilst a
> [telephone] directory is just a thick book.

And that is precisely what filesystem directories are: they do not
contain anything except a list of names and numbers.

Folder is the metaphor, directory is the fact.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#263064 — Re: How to compare one folder to one directory

I wrote:
> It comes from the Xerox "desktop metaphor".  The idea was to hide scary
> technical jargon behind familiar office jargon.

Loris Bennett wrote:
> Personally I don't see "directory" as being more scary or technical
> than "folder".  They are both words from the pre-computer age which
> have been repurposed, just as the term "computer" now no longer refers
> to a human who performs computations.

This was in the 1970s when the graphical UI was being invented.  The
idea was that the screen was to look like an actual desktop which might
have actual file folders on it.  Every icon was supposed to be an image
of a familiar office object.  In that context a directory is a phone
book.
-- 
John Hasler 
john@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#263066 — Re: How to compare one folder to one directory

On Thu, Nov 02, 2023 at 12:16:54PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> This was in the 1970s when the graphical UI was being invented.  The
> idea was that the screen was to look like an actual desktop which might
> have actual file folders on it.  Every icon was supposed to be an image
> of a familiar office object.  In that context a directory is a phone
> book.

The use of "directory" in the Unix sense predates graphical UI
development.  It's called a directory because that's how it works,
and how it looks when you examine it at a low level.

In traditional Unix systems, you could cat a directory and see the
actual bytes that it's made of.  (Linux prohibits this.)  If you did,
you might see something like:

README.txt    4567
foo.c         198
foo.o         211

where the spaces are actually NUL bytes, and the digits are actually
binary two-byte integers.  Those are filenames and inode numbers.
That's literally what a directory was -- a table of filenames and inode
numbers.  Modern file systems are a little bit fancier, but the directory
concept is still very similar.  You've got filenames and inode numbers,
in a list.  It's a phone book for files.

Filenames were limited to 14 bytes on these systems, because each
directory entry was a 16-byte data structure, with 14 bytes for the
filename, and 2 bytes for the inode number.  There may still be some
file systems in use with the 14-byte filename restriction, but they're
dying out.

Calling these things "folders" discards all of this history and
knowledge.

But the real problem with calling them "folders" is that it doesn't
match the Unix user interface.  The command to make one is mkdir(1),
not mkfolder.  To remove one, rmdir(1).  When you use "ls -l", a
directory is indicated by the letter "d", not "f".  When you want
find(1) to act upon directories, you use "-type d".  The "-type f"
option is for regular files, not folders.  In C, you change directory
by calling chdir(2).  In a shell, it's "cd".

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#263068 — On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...]

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On Thu, Nov 02, 2023 at 11:17:01PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 02, 2023 at 12:16:54PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> > This was in the 1970s when the graphical UI was being invented.  The
> > idea was that the screen was to look like an actual desktop which might
> > have actual file folders on it.  Every icon was supposed to be an image
> > of a familiar office object.  In that context a directory is a phone
> > book.
> 
> The use of "directory" in the Unix sense predates graphical UI
> development.  It's called a directory because that's how it works,
> and how it looks when you examine it at a low level.

[interesting stuff snipped]

What was surprising to me is by how little Unix predates GUIs:
Xerox Alto is 1973, Unix 1969. The desktop metaphor developed
"on top" of Alto and was commercialised 1983 with the Star.

I have two objections to the "folder" moniker. One coincides
with yours (documentation talks about directories, you make
user's learning path easier, and we do free software because
we have a path to the system's internals, don't we?)

The other is related: folder has become the culture of those
who want to "sell you knowledge", i.e. of those whose business
model is based on keeping you dumb.

Clippy.

Cheers
-- 
t

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#263070 — Re: On folders vs. directories and history [was: how to compare...]

tomas@tuxteam.de (12023-11-03):
> The other is related: folder has become the culture of those
> who want to "sell you knowledge", i.e. of those whose business
> model is based on keeping you dumb.

Ear, ear!

Also, that metaphor is easy, but it is very shaky. In the physical
world, I have *sometimes* seen a folder inside a folder, but a folder
inside a folder inside a folder inside a folder…

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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