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Groups > linux.debian.user > #265382 > unrolled thread

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20231216)

Started by"Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com>
First post2024-01-01 06:20 +0100
Last post2024-01-02 10:30 +0100
Articles 7 — 6 participants

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  Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20231216) "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-01-01 06:20 +0100
    Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20231216) Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net> - 2024-01-01 12:00 +0100
      Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101) "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-01-02 00:00 +0100
        Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101) Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2024-01-02 03:40 +0100
          Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101) Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-01-02 04:00 +0100
          Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-01-02 04:30 +0100
            On threads and changing Subject [was: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user  mailing list (modified 20240101)] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-01-02 10:30 +0100

#265382 — Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20231216)

From"Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com>
Date2024-01-01 06:20 +0100
SubjectMonthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20231216)
Message-ID<HRiSt-hzf3-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list.

* Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply in order to get
  the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
   and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread may be much easier to
  read than long threads.

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient.

* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on the email
  accordingly.

* It may also be useful to for someone to post a summary email from time to
  time to explain long threads.

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

* Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here.
  Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be
  only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently.
  Any advice given accordingly  may be inaccurate but is given in good faith.

* Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
  welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
  do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not
  assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
  Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time
  is of the form:

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
cached by Google and so on.

Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies
anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=========

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team <community@debian.org>.

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings: repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

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#265388

FromMichael Kjörling <2695bd53d63c@ewoof.net>
Date2024-01-01 12:00 +0100
Message-ID<HRobv-1YJ-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#265382
Could we perchance add something to the FAQ about the
inappropriateness of reposting private replies to the list without
first confirming with the people involved that doing so is acceptable?

-- 
Michael Kjörling                     🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

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#265414 — Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)

From"Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com>
Date2024-01-02 00:00 +0100
SubjectRe: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)
Message-ID<HRzqi-8QX-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#265388
Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Codes of Conduct
================

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
  
Guidelines for this list
========================
Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work:

Language
========

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or
  debian-user-cat

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively
==================================================================

* This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some time 
  for an answer - please be patient.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.
  
* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list.
  
* Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get
  the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

* Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
  welcome here. 

* Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. 
  Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your
  views or need to read them on a Debian list.
  
Editing and answering mailing list posts
========================================

* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email
  accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. 

  For example: New question [WAS Old topic]

* It may also be useful to for someone to post a summary email from time to
  time to explain long threads.
  
* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
  and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to
  read and follow than long threads.

* If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and cut extra
  text that is not relevant to your point.

Private replies and responding to posts off-list
================================================

* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list
  to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you
  haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community
  
  BUT

* Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists 
  can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak
  personal information by posting a private reply back to the list.

  If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done
  so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you
  think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list
  do not just do so on their behalf without checking.

I can't see what I want here - help me!
=======================================

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may
  be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is
  a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing
  useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are
  running.
  
I'm not using Debian but ...
============================

* Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here.
  Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be
  only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently.
  Any advice given accordingly  may be inaccurate but is given in good faith.

FAQ topics
==========

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

This is a public list, archived in many places
==============================================

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time
  is of the form:

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
cached by Google and so on.

Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies
anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems and inappropriate behaviour?
=====================================

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team <community@debian.org>.

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings: repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

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#265415 — Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)

FromCharles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com>
Date2024-01-02 03:40 +0100
SubjectRe: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)
Message-ID<HRCRb-b4B-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#265414
The refactoring and headers are an improvement, thank you.


On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 22:56:03 +0000
"Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> wrote:

> If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the
> subject line on your email accordingly so that this can be clearly
> seen. 
> 
>   For example: New question [WAS Old topic]

If one changes subject, would it not be better to simply start a new
thread? With most mail readers threading using the In-Reply-To header,
the new subject would get buried in the old thread.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#265416 — Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)

FromGreg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org>
Date2024-01-02 04:00 +0100
SubjectRe: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)
Message-ID<HRDax-baZ-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#265415
On Mon, Jan 01, 2024 at 07:32:18PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:
> If one changes subject, would it not be better to simply start a new
> thread? With most mail readers threading using the In-Reply-To header,
> the new subject would get buried in the old thread.

There's a difference between natural subject drift, or someone hijacking
a thread to ask their own question.  A judgment call may be needed in
some cases where it might be unclear, but most of the time it should
be obvious which one's happening.

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#265417 — Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)

FromAndy Smith <andy@strugglers.net>
Date2024-01-02 04:30 +0100
SubjectRe: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)
Message-ID<HRDDz-bFt-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#265415
Hello,

On Mon, Jan 01, 2024 at 07:32:18PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:
> If one changes subject, would it not be better to simply start a new
> thread? With most mail readers threading using the In-Reply-To header,
> the new subject would get buried in the old thread.

Personally I prefer that. I appreciate being able to break out
sub-threads that seem interesting, instead of having that decision
made for me.

But in any case, ~30% of the posters of this list (the largest
single constituency) use gmail which I recently learned will break
such emails out to appear to be in a different "conversation"
anyway.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#265419 — On threads and changing Subject [was: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)]

From<tomas@tuxteam.de>
Date2024-01-02 10:30 +0100
SubjectOn threads and changing Subject [was: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)]
Message-ID<HRJfX-f3p-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#265417

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tue, Jan 02, 2024 at 03:26:03AM +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Mon, Jan 01, 2024 at 07:32:18PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:
> > If one changes subject, would it not be better to simply start a new
> > thread? With most mail readers threading using the In-Reply-To header,
> > the new subject would get buried in the old thread.
> 
> Personally I prefer that. I appreciate being able to break out
> sub-threads that seem interesting, instead of having that decision
> made for me.

I'd tend to leave the (real, In-Reply-To:, References:) thread intact
as long as there's still a relation and to actively break the thread
when the relation was lost. But of course, change the Subject: appropriately.

Here I try an example :)

> But in any case, ~30% of the posters of this list (the largest
> single constituency) use gmail which I recently learned will break
> such emails out to appear to be in a different "conversation"
> anyway.

Why cater to gmail users and Google's interests? That's on their plate
to complain to Google if their mail reader is garbage (I try to be
friendly to them by putting a [was: ...] in the Subject: relating to
the old one. Either they sort it out manually or they let their fancy
AIs do it for them -- and sneak in some targeted advertising if their
overlords feel like it).

The other 70% are more important to me anyway.

Cheers
-- 
t

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