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Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network

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  Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Jeremy Ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> - 2023-05-13 11:40 +0200
    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Jeremy Ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> - 2023-05-13 11:50 +0200
      Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2023-05-13 12:00 +0200
        Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2023-05-13 12:10 +0200
          Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Jeremy Ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> - 2023-05-13 12:20 +0200
            Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-05-13 12:20 +0200
              Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-05-13 12:30 +0200
              Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Jeremy Ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> - 2023-05-13 12:30 +0200
                Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-05-13 12:40 +0200
                  Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network jeremy ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> - 2023-05-13 12:50 +0200
                    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Jeremy Ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> - 2023-05-13 12:50 +0200
                    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-05-13 12:50 +0200
                    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-05-13 14:30 +0200
                      Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-05-13 15:00 +0200
                    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-05-13 18:40 +0200
                    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-05-13 18:50 +0200
                Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2023-05-13 20:10 +0200
                  Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-05-13 20:30 +0200
                    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-05-13 21:50 +0200
                      Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-05-13 22:20 +0200
                      Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-05-14 00:20 +0200
                        Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2023-05-14 06:10 +0200
                          Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-05-14 07:00 +0200
                            Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2023-05-14 16:40 +0200
                          Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2023-05-15 13:00 +0200
                            Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2023-05-15 15:40 +0200
                              Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2023-05-15 16:40 +0200
                                Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-05-15 17:10 +0200
                                  Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2023-05-15 17:20 +0200
                                    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2023-05-15 17:20 +0200
                                      Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-05-15 17:40 +0200
                                Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2023-05-16 06:20 +0200
                                  Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2023-05-16 11:40 +0200
                                    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2023-05-16 15:50 +0200
                        Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-05-14 18:20 +0200
                      Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-05-14 06:50 +0200
                        Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-05-14 18:10 +0200
                          Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-05-14 19:50 +0200
                            Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-05-14 23:10 +0200
                          Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-05-14 20:10 +0200
                            Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-05-14 23:20 +0200
                              Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-05-15 06:50 +0200
                        Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2023-05-14 18:30 +0200
                          Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-05-14 20:20 +0200
                            Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2023-05-14 21:00 +0200
                              Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-05-15 06:40 +0200
                                Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2023-05-15 07:20 +0200
                                  Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-05-15 13:10 +0200
                                    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-05-15 18:10 +0200
                                      Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-05-15 18:50 +0200
                                      Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-05-15 19:00 +0200
                          Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-05-14 20:50 +0200
                            Gene's avahi bogeyman is not real (Was Re: how to find out  regdomain/country of wifi network) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-05-14 23:30 +0200
                              Re: Gene's avahi bogeyman is not real (Was Re: how to find  outregdomain/country of wifi network) gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-05-15 00:30 +0200
                                Re: Gene's avahi bogeyman is not real (Was Re: how to find  outregdomain/country of wifi network) Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2023-05-15 09:50 +0200
                    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2023-05-15 22:20 +0200
            Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-05-13 12:40 +0200
        Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Jeremy Ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> - 2023-05-13 12:10 +0200
          Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-05-13 12:40 +0200
          Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-05-13 16:50 +0200
            Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2023-05-14 07:00 +0200
    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network jeremy ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> - 2023-05-13 12:00 +0200
      Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-05-13 12:10 +0200
      Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2023-05-13 12:10 +0200
        Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-05-13 16:50 +0200
          Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2023-05-14 07:00 +0200
    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-05-13 12:00 +0200
    Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-05-13 16:40 +0200

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#258193 — Re: how to find out regdomain/country of wifi network

On 13/5/23 17:19, hl wrote:
>
> To view the current list of regulatory domains and SKUs:
>
>  # ifconfig wlan0 list countries
>
> To view the current regulatory domain frequency and operating modes:
>
>  # ifconfig wlan0 list regdomain
>
>
> but ifconfig isn't available in buster
>
ifconfig needs to be run as root or sudo. e.g.

sudoifconfig wlan0 list countries

-- 
Jeremy
(Lists)

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#258194

On 13/5/23 17:38, Jeremy Ardley wrote:
>>
> ifconfig needs to be run as root or sudo. e.g.
>
> sudoifconfig wlan0 list countries


Wrong.

sudo ifconfig wlan0 list countries


-- 
Jeremy
(Lists)

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#258196

On 2023-05-13 17:41:14 +0800, Jeremy Ardley wrote:
> On 13/5/23 17:38, Jeremy Ardley wrote:
> > ifconfig needs to be run as root or sudo. e.g.
> > 
> > sudoifconfig wlan0 list countries
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> sudo ifconfig wlan0 list countries

Wrong again. You must not use no-break spaces.

Moreover, it should not be necessary to be root: you are just
reading non-private data. However, "list countries" does not
seem to exist.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre <vincent@vinc17.net> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/>
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

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#258201

On 2023-05-13 18:02:18 +0800, Jeremy Ardley wrote:
> 
> On 13/5/23 17:57, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > Moreover, it should not be necessary to be root: you are just
> > reading non-private data. However, "list countries" does not
> > seem to exist.
> 
> Debian 11 seems to have a different opinion on who can run ifconfig.
> Sudo or root is required.

Wrong.

> jeremy@client:~$ ifconfig enp8s0
> bash: ifconfig: command not found
> jeremy@client:~$ sudo ifconfig enp8s0
> enp8s0: flags=4098<BROADCAST,MULTICAST>  mtu 1500
[...]

You should learn what a run path is. A "command not found" just means
that the command isn't in your path. So, provide the path explicitly
or add /sbin to $PATH.

zira:~> ifconfig enp0s25
enp0s25: flags=4163<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,MULTICAST>  mtu 1500
        ether 30:8d:99:25:ad:3f  txqueuelen 1000  (Ethernet)
        device interrupt 20  memory 0xd2100000-d2120000  

No need to be root or use sudo (I've always had /sbin in my path).

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre <vincent@vinc17.net> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/>
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

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#258204

On 13/5/23 18:07, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> You should learn what a run path is. A "command not found" just means
> that the command isn't in your path. So, provide the path explicitly
> or add /sbin to $PATH.

The reason it's not on the path is because the Debian designers thought it would best if users did not routinely run it

You can configure your way around most things and likely get up to all sorts of mischief.

In a list with a wide variety of users, sticking to showing how to use the standard configuration will be helpful to more people

-- 
Jeremy
(Lists)

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#258205

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Jeremy Ardley (12023-05-13):
> The reason it's not on the path is because the Debian designers
> thought it would best if users did not routinely run it

This is your interpretation, not an official stance. It might as well be
that they considered polluting the completion namespace of users with a
command they rarely need was less convenient.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#258206

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Jeremy Ardley (12023-05-13):
> The actual reason is they have deprecated it in favour of the ip command

<sigh> No it is not the actual reason, as ifconfig has been in /sbin
since way before ip existed.

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#258208

On 13/5/23 18:17, Nicolas George wrote:
> This is your interpretation, not an official stance. It might as well be
> that they considered polluting the completion namespace of users with a
> command they rarely need was less convenient.

The actual reason is they have deprecated it in favour of the ip command but left it available for now with a bit of searching.

-- 
Jeremy
(Lists)

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#258212

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On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 06:23:00PM +0800, Jeremy Ardley wrote:
> 
> On 13/5/23 18:17, Nicolas George wrote:
> > This is your interpretation, not an official stance. It might as well be
> > that they considered polluting the completion namespace of users with a
> > command they rarely need was less convenient.
> 
> The actual reason is they have deprecated it in favour of the ip command but left it available for now with a bit of searching.

Again: no.

Ip is by default in /bin, perhaps because it's more "modern". Ifconfig
has always been in /sbin, long before Debian existed.

Cheers
-- 
t

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#258213

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On 13/5/23 18:36, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> Ip is by default in /bin, perhaps because it's more "modern". Ifconfig
> has always been in /sbin, long before Debian existed.
-- 
Some programs are on the root path and some on the user path and most 
(all?) on both.

The exact reasons are in the mists of time, but it seems likely the 
powers didn't want users to routinely use programs better run by 
adminstrators.

Using sudo automatically gives you the root path so you can run programs 
'better run by admins' without extra work figuring out paths and any 
local variations.

In some cases sudo is actually required and in some cases it makes no 
difference.



Jeremy

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#258214

On 13/5/23 18:46, jeremy ardley wrote:

> Some programs are on the root path and some on the user path and most 
> (all?) on both.

Correction

Most (all?) are on the root path, not including programs specific to a user or application.

-- 
Jeremy
(Lists)

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#258215

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jeremy ardley (12023-05-13):
> In some cases sudo is actually required and in some cases it makes no
> difference.

If you use sudo just to run programs that are not in the default path
but do not require privileges, then please keep away from any system I
administrate and refrain from giving advice to anybody who might
co-administrate with me.

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#258227

Le 13 mai 2023 jeremy ardley a écrit :

> The exact reasons are in the mists of time, but it seems likely the powers
> didn't want users to routinely use programs better run by adminstrators.

As I learned it a long time ago, /bin /sbin are historically for system
commands, /usr/bin /usr/sbin for user ones. sbin stands for "static
binaries" for commands needed while libs are not available (boot,
recovery, etc). Potentially commands for root. Nowadays we have binaries
and libs on same device so bin sbin are less significant. And of course
since debian merge /usr there is no difference between system and user
commands :

lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    7 17 sept.  2022 bin -> usr/bin
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    7 17 sept.  2022 lib -> usr/lib
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    9 17 sept.  2022 lib32 -> usr/lib32
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    9 17 sept.  2022 lib64 -> usr/lib64
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root   10 17 sept.  2022 libx32 -> usr/libx32
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root    8 17 sept.  2022 sbin -> usr/sbin

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#258228

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On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 02:26:58PM +0200, Michel Verdier wrote:
> Le 13 mai 2023 jeremy ardley a écrit :
> 
> > The exact reasons are in the mists of time, but it seems likely the powers
> > didn't want users to routinely use programs better run by adminstrators.
> 
> As I learned it a long time ago, /bin /sbin are historically for system
> commands, /usr/bin /usr/sbin for user ones.

No. /bin and /usr/bin are for the "normal" users, /sbin, /usr/sbin for
the admin (typically). The "s" meaning "system".

There's a wikipedia page [1] on that.

The difference between /usr and non-/usr stems from the times you had
only a small disk at boot (/usr being mounted later, perhaps as a NFS
mount). You possibly needed a minimal viable system to set up all the
rest to be able to mount /usr.

These days all those things happen typically at initramfs time. That's
why usrmerge was possible at all.

Cheers

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard
-- 
t

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#258246

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Thomas Schweikle (12023-05-13):
> No, not really. But some do have a short memory. Computers used to have
> "lots of memory" at some times in the past if they had 64KiB. The Harddisk
> used to be large if it had 5MiB available. Systems had to mount drives over
> networks to access more storage. You had to put all parts boot up a system
> on one HD. "/sbin" was the answer. /sbin held all parts to boot up a system,
> then mount further HD directly or over network.

Some have short memory, some believe they have long memory but it is not
very reliable.

What you describe is the reason for /(s)bin vs /usr/(s)bin, not the
reason for (/usr)/bin vs (/usr)/sbin.

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#258248

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On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 04:25:26PM +0000, Thomas Schweikle wrote:

[...]

> This was never the reason for "/bin" vs. "/sbin". "/sbin" held just tools
> needed to startup the system and mount the rest.

No. You needed *both* /bin and /sbin for start up; /usr/bin and /usr/sbin
could come later.

One prominent example: /bin/sh. No shell, no system.

It's pretty well explained here [1].

The difference between "s" and no "s" was "system" vs. "user". And this
wasn't done to "keep the users from messing with the system"; rather to
not clutter the user's path with programs (s)he couldn't use anyway.

Cheers

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard

-- 
t

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#258251

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On Sat, May 13, 2023, 5:23 AM Jeremy Ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> wrote:

>
> On 13/5/23 18:17, Nicolas George wrote:
> > This is your interpretation, not an official stance. It might as well be
> > that they considered polluting the completion namespace of users with a
> > command they rarely need was less convenient.
>
> The actual reason is they have deprecated it in favour of the ip command
> but left it available for now with a bit of searching.
>

Ifconfig has been deprecated in Debian for some years. IIRC the wiki tells
you that but i honestly did not know that for years after.... Until i took
care of ubuntu servers: no root login period; no old network tools period.

Jeremy
> (Lists)
>
>

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#258252

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On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 01:01:27PM -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> On Sat, May 13, 2023, 5:23 AM Jeremy Ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> wrote:
> 
> >
> > On 13/5/23 18:17, Nicolas George wrote:
> > > This is your interpretation, not an official stance. It might as well be
> > > that they considered polluting the completion namespace of users with a
> > > command they rarely need was less convenient.
> >
> > The actual reason is they have deprecated it in favour of the ip command
> > but left it available for now with a bit of searching.
> >
> 
> Ifconfig has been deprecated in Debian for some years.

It is *not* deprecated. It is just optional, not essential. As is the
Gnu C compiler or Lua or... you name it. If you need it, you install
it. It is in stable (version 1.60), coming in testing (v 2.10) and is
in unstable. It is not going away, folks!

> IIRC the wiki tells
> you that but i honestly did not know that for years after.... Until i took
> care of ubuntu servers: no root login period; no old network tools period.

Where?

Cheers
-- 
t

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#258254

On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 08:29:11PM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 01:01:27PM -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> > Ifconfig has been deprecated in Debian for some years.
> 
> It is *not* deprecated. It is just optional, not essential.

I don't know what Debian's official stance is, but if you do web searches
for "Linux ifconfig deprecated", you find MANY results.

<https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/ifconfig-vs-ip>:
    The ip command is the future of network config commands. ifconfig
    has been officially deprecated for the ip suite, so while many of
    us are still using the old ways, it is time to put those habits to
    rest and move on with the world.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifconfig>:
    Many Linux distributions have deprecated the use of ifconfig and route
    in favor of the software suite iproute2, such as ArchLinux[3] or RHEL
    since version 7,[4] which has been available since 1999 for Linux 2.2.

<https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/replacing-ifconfig-ip/>:
    [...] back around 2009 when the debian-devel mailing list
    announced plans on deprecating the net-tools package due to lack of
    maintenance. It is now 2015 and net-tools is still around.


Those are the most official-sounding references I can find in a few
minutes.

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#258256

Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> wrote:
> On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 08:29:11PM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 01:01:27PM -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:  
> > > Ifconfig has been deprecated in Debian for some years.  
> > 
> > It is *not* deprecated. It is just optional, not essential.  
> 
> I don't know what Debian's official stance is, but if you do web
> searches for "Linux ifconfig deprecated", you find MANY results.
> 
> <https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/ifconfig-vs-ip>:
>     The ip command is the future of network config commands. ifconfig
>     has been officially deprecated for the ip suite, so while many of
>     us are still using the old ways, it is time to put those habits to
>     rest and move on with the world.
> 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifconfig>:
>     Many Linux distributions have deprecated the use of ifconfig and
> route in favor of the software suite iproute2, such as ArchLinux[3]
> or RHEL since version 7,[4] which has been available since 1999 for
> Linux 2.2.
> 
> <https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/replacing-ifconfig-ip/>:
>     [...] back around 2009 when the debian-devel mailing list
>     announced plans on deprecating the net-tools package due to lack
> of maintenance. It is now 2015 and net-tools is still around.
> 
> 
> Those are the most official-sounding references I can find in a few
> minutes.

A couple more useful-looking pages I found that explain some of the
issues and history:

https://phoenixnap.com/kb/ifconfig-command-not-found

https://lwn.net/Articles/710533/

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