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Groups > linux.debian.user > #256611 > unrolled thread

Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin?

Started bycoreyh@free.fr
First post2023-04-02 11:00 +0200
Last post2023-04-03 19:50 +0200
Articles 20 on this page of 133 — 33 participants

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  Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? coreyh@free.fr - 2023-04-02 11:00 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-02 11:10 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 11:30 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2023-04-02 11:50 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 00:20 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Steve Sobol <steve@LobosStudios.com> - 2023-04-03 00:20 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2023-04-02 18:40 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-02 18:40 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 19:20 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-02 20:50 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 21:00 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 21:20 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 21:30 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-04-03 00:00 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 00:10 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Steve Sobol <steve@LobosStudios.com> - 2023-04-03 01:10 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 04:30 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 05:50 +0200
                      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-03 06:50 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-03 06:50 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-03 06:40 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 11:30 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:00 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-02 21:20 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 02:00 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Ken Young <ken@highwinds.cloud> - 2023-04-03 02:30 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 01:40 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 19:20 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-04-02 22:10 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 22:40 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2023-04-02 23:20 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 22:50 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 01:20 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-02 22:50 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2023-04-02 23:10 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? coreyh@free.fr - 2023-04-03 06:30 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-03 06:50 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? coreyh@free.fr - 2023-04-03 07:00 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stanislav Vlasov <stanislav.v.v@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 08:50 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 09:30 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 10:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stanislav Vlasov <stanislav.v.v@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 11:20 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 13:00 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2023-04-03 15:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stanislav Vlasov <stanislav.v.v@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 18:50 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Oliver Schoede <oliver.schode@online.de> - 2023-04-02 23:40 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 00:10 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 03:30 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-03 05:00 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 05:50 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-03 06:20 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-04 02:20 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2023-04-04 05:40 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-04 15:50 +0200
                      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2023-04-05 00:50 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2023-04-03 00:10 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 00:20 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 01:20 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 02:20 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Eduard Bloch <edi@gmx.de> - 2023-04-03 23:30 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Joel Roth <joelz@pobox.com> - 2023-04-04 00:30 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:20 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:00 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2023-04-08 16:30 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-08 18:30 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 18:40 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 18:50 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2023-04-08 19:50 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2023-04-08 21:20 +0200
                      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 21:40 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2023-04-09 05:40 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2023-04-04 04:00 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:20 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2023-04-08 16:50 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 17:10 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2023-04-11 04:20 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:30 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2023-04-05 04:10 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:50 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-02 23:20 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2023-04-02 23:40 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 23:50 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 00:10 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 23:40 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 05:50 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 20:00 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 20:20 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 20:50 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:20 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 20:20 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-03 20:50 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 21:00 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2023-04-08 05:50 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:40 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 22:00 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-03 22:10 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 22:30 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michael <ml@hemathor.de> - 2023-04-05 12:00 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michael <ml@hemathor.de> - 2023-04-05 12:00 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-04-05 12:10 +0200
                      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-05 13:30 +0200
                        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-05 13:40 +0200
                          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-04-05 14:00 +0200
                          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-05 14:20 +0200
                        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-04-05 13:40 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 21:50 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-03 05:10 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 18:40 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stanislav Vlasov <stanislav.v.v@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 19:10 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 19:40 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 19:50 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-04-03 19:20 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 19:50 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 19:40 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2023-04-03 20:30 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:10 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-08 15:20 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:30 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-09 00:20 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? conover@panix.com (John Conover) - 2023-04-09 05:00 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-04-04 15:40 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-04-04 15:50 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-04-04 16:40 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-04-04 19:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-04 19:40 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2023-04-04 20:00 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-04-04 21:00 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:40 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:50 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 17:00 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 17:10 +0200
      Computer anthropology and language wars [was: Is perl still the No.1  language for sysadmin?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-03 19:50 +0200

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#256611 — Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin?

Fromcoreyh@free.fr
Date2023-04-02 11:00 +0200
SubjectIs perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin?
Message-ID<Gg1J8-gNOp-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
I saw many commands in /bin and /usr/bin are written by perl.
is perl still the first choice for sysadmin on linux?

Thanks.

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#256612

From<tomas@tuxteam.de>
Date2023-04-02 11:10 +0200
Message-ID<Gg1SN-gO7n-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256611

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Apr 02, 2023 at 04:59:15PM +0800, coreyh@free.fr wrote:
> I saw many commands in /bin and /usr/bin are written by perl.
> is perl still the first choice for sysadmin on linux?

That depends.

(Sorry: the answer is more or less as unspecific as the question(

Cheers
-- 
t

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#256613

FromEmanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
Date2023-04-02 11:30 +0200
Message-ID<Gg2ca-gOfo-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256611
coreyh wrote:

> I saw many commands in /bin and /usr/bin are written
> by perl.

And in C?

> is perl still the first choice for sysadmin on linux?

If you are looking for a career, Python is much bigger but
there is a lot of shell scripts and for that matter a little
bit of Perl don't harm, absolutely mot.

Most guys know one or two things really well and then enough
to get by everywhere else, so there's where I'd put Python and
Perl respectively, this day and age ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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#256614

FromJude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com>
Date2023-04-02 11:50 +0200
Message-ID<Gg2vv-gOms-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256613
M.I.T. is giving python's compiler some long overdue love which should
speed it up considerably.


-- Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that
order." Ed Howdershelt 1940.

On Sun, 2 Apr 2023, Emanuel Berg wrote:

> coreyh wrote:
>
> > I saw many commands in /bin and /usr/bin are written
> > by perl.
>
> And in C?
>
> > is perl still the first choice for sysadmin on linux?
>
> If you are looking for a career, Python is much bigger but
> there is a lot of shell scripts and for that matter a little
> bit of Perl don't harm, absolutely mot.
>
> Most guys know one or two things really well and then enough
> to get by everywhere else, so there's where I'd put Python and
> Perl respectively, this day and age ...
>
>

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#256642

FromEmanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
Date2023-04-03 00:20 +0200
Message-ID<Ggedj-gVMh-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256613
Steve Sobol wrote:

>> If you are looking for a career, Python is much bigger but
>> there is a lot of shell scripts and for that matter
>> a little bit of Perl don't harm, absolutely mot.
>
> I'm seeing scripts written in Python far more often than
> Perl these days

100%, it's much more popular.

> but it is probably useful to at least be familiar with both

Right.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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#256643

FromSteve Sobol <steve@LobosStudios.com>
Date2023-04-03 00:20 +0200
Message-ID<Ggedj-gVMh-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256613
On 2023-04-02 02:24, Emanuel Berg wrote:

> If you are looking for a career, Python is much bigger but
> there is a lot of shell scripts and for that matter a little
> bit of Perl don't harm, absolutely mot.

I'm seeing scripts written in Python far more often than Perl these 
days, but it is probably useful to at least be familiar with both.

There are some very popular software packages, like Sympa and RT, that 
are written in Perl. Both are currently maintained and have dropped new 
releases recently.

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#256617

FromNicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com>
Date2023-04-02 18:40 +0200
Message-ID<Gg8Uh-gSn2-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256611

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Apr 2, 2023, 3:59 AM <coreyh@free.fr> wrote:

> I saw many commands in /bin and /usr/bin are written by perl.
> is perl still the first choice for sysadmin on linux?
>

I first wrote perl on unix/linux in 1991. The first python I wrote was
about 10 years later. By that time the Redhat/fedora/CentOS distro had
hundreds of thousands of lines of python thruout it. I built the perl
interpreter from source on IBM mainframes by 1994.

Python is a more modern programming language than perl, and more in the
European CS tradition. Larry Wall said directly that the OO features in
perl were fake :-) because it was another fad. You can feel the difference
in python. 3 styles you could code in python: old-fashioned procedural,
functional like lisp, or modern OO.

Thanks.
>
>

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#256618

From<tomas@tuxteam.de>
Date2023-04-02 18:40 +0200
Message-ID<Gg8Uh-gSn2-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256617

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Apr 02, 2023 at 11:31:50AM -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:

[...]

> Python is a more modern programming language than perl, and more in the
> European CS tradition. Larry Wall said directly that the OO features in
> perl were fake :-) because it was another fad. You can feel the difference
> in python. 3 styles you could code in python: old-fashioned procedural,
> functional like lisp, or modern OO.

But Python's lambdas are preposterous (not so Perl's ;-)

Cheers
-- 
t

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#256619

FromEmanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
Date2023-04-02 19:20 +0200
Message-ID<Gg9wZ-gSQl-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256618
tomas wrote:

>> Python is a more modern programming language than perl, and
>> more in the European CS tradition. Larry Wall said directly
>> that the OO features in perl were fake :-) because it was
>> another fad. You can feel the difference in python.
>> 3 styles you could code in python: old-fashioned
>> procedural, functional like lisp, or modern OO.
>
> But Python's lambdas are preposterous (not so Perl's ;-)

Well, can't compare either to Lisp, the Pythagorean theorem of
computing ...

But development is faster with Python, it's a painful yet true
fact that an average Python programmer can do in x time what
skilled lispers can do in ... uhm, x + n time?

Or something!

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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#256621

From<tomas@tuxteam.de>
Date2023-04-02 20:50 +0200
Message-ID<GgaW5-gTAs-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256619

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On Sun, Apr 02, 2023 at 07:14:06PM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:

[...]

> But development is faster with Python [...]

Is it? Is it /better/, then?

Remember. All generalizations suck.

Cheers
-- 
t

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#256622

FromEmanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
Date2023-04-02 21:00 +0200
Message-ID<Ggb5M-gTDU-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256621
tomas wrote:

>> But development is faster with Python [...]
>
> Is it?

Yes.

> Is it /better/, then?

In that regard, yes.

> Remember. All generalizations suck.

Is it better to be all-around, or to be a specialist?

Well, in general it's better to be all-around ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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#256623

FromEmanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
Date2023-04-02 21:20 +0200
Message-ID<Ggbp7-gU14-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256622
Greg Wooledge wrote:

>>>> But development is faster with Python [...]
>>>
>>> Is it?
>> 
>> Yes.
>
> Development is fastest using whatever language you know
> best. This is not an objective argument.

Put it this way, a novice Python programmer can do more in
Python than the novice Lisp programmer can do in Lisp, or, if
you will, the same in less time.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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#256625

FromEmanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
Date2023-04-02 21:30 +0200
Message-ID<GgbyN-gU4t-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256623
>>>>> But development is faster with Python [...]
>>>>
>>>> Is it?
>>> 
>>> Yes.
>>
>> Development is fastest using whatever language you know
>> best. This is not an objective argument.
>
> Put it this way, a novice Python programmer can do more in
> Python than the novice Lisp programmer can do in Lisp, or,
> if you will, the same in less time.

Lisp is a maximalist, universal language. Python is designed
with certain aspects in mind. And quite successfully so! But,
as I mentioned, it's not just the language itself, Python has
this huge superstructure of support material/assets in
different forms. That part becomes a chicken and egg
discussion, but it's a fact anyway. Python is huge while Lisp
is the underground. So the languages themselves, for whatever
reasons (1), and the different sizes of the
superstructures (2), for these two reasons and possibly others
as well (?) it is just faster, less threshold, with Python.

It's completely natural and we see it all the time. One hockey
player is a power forward, another a playmaker (passer),
a third a goal scorer, a forth a physical defenseman, and the
fifth Mr Everything who can do it all.

And in practice, to win the world championship, the defensive,
physical player may have to end up scoring the game winning
goal! It happens, just not as often as with the goal scorer.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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#256637

Fromdebian-user@howorth.org.uk
Date2023-04-03 00:00 +0200
Message-ID<GgdTY-gVpi-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256623
Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:
> Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> >>>> But development is faster with Python [...]  
> >>>
> >>> Is it?  
> >> 
> >> Yes.  
> >
> > Development is fastest using whatever language you know
> > best. This is not an objective argument.  
> 
> Put it this way, a novice Python programmer can do more in
> Python than the novice Lisp programmer can do in Lisp, or, if
> you will, the same in less time.

I'm afraid that Python has one specific feature that puts me off.
Sensitivity to indentation. To those who first had to learn 'make',
it's a sin that cannot be forgiven.

I'll admit that when I first saw perl, I thought it was horrific and I
swore to continue using awk and C and ... anything but perl. But then
one day $job required me to learn perl so I did and have been a convert
ever since.

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#256641

FromEmanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
Date2023-04-03 00:10 +0200
Message-ID<Gge3D-gVIg-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256637
debian-user wrote:

>>> Development is fastest using whatever language you know
>>> best. This is not an objective argument.
>> 
>> Put it this way, a novice Python programmer can do more in
>> Python than the novice Lisp programmer can do in Lisp, or,
>> if you will, the same in less time.
>
> I'm afraid that Python has one specific feature that puts me
> off. Sensitivity to indentation. To those who first had to
> learn 'make', it's a sin that cannot be forgiven.

I know, I absolutely don't like it but I think maybe it is
actually beneficial for the speed aspect since you don't
fiddle around with it manually in order to get it to look your
way ...

Erlang, Haskell are notorious for this because of the emphasis
on pattern matching, people spend hours aligning back and
forth to make the code look logical as well ...

> I'll admit that when I first saw perl, I thought it was
> horrific and I swore to continue using awk and C and ...
> anything but perl. But then one day $job required me to
> learn perl so I did and have been a convert ever since.

C looks much better than Perl but Python also don't look good,
C looks better. But Lisp also looks good - well, often!
C almost always looks good.
C U!

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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#256645

FromSteve Sobol <steve@LobosStudios.com>
Date2023-04-03 01:10 +0200
Message-ID<GgeZH-gWhy-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256637
On 2023-04-02 14:57, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:

> I'll admit that when I first saw perl, I thought it was horrific and I
> swore to continue using awk and C and ... anything but perl. But then
> one day $job required me to learn perl so I did and have been a convert
> ever since.

Perl definitely has the edge when you're working with text.

CPAN, however.... Ooohhhh, CPAN. I can't even think about CPAN without 
my blood pressure rising.

(Don't ask. Just know that CPAN's stupidity has caused me untold amounts 
of grief.)

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#256658

FromDavid Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com>
Date2023-04-03 04:30 +0200
Message-ID<Ggi7f-gYd9-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256637
On 4/2/23 14:57, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> I'm afraid that Python has one specific feature that puts me off.
> Sensitivity to indentation. To those who first had to learn 'make',
> it's a sin that cannot be forgiven.

+1


Code that writes code is a very useful technique, and I use it. 
Whitespace as syntax would only make that harder.


David

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#256664

FromEmanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
Date2023-04-03 05:50 +0200
Message-ID<GgjmF-gYSN-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256658
David Christensen wrote:

> Code that writes code is a very useful technique, and I use
> it. Whitespace as syntax would only make that harder.

But if the whitespace is semantic, there's no saying it can't
be used to produce even more - indeed, of its own kind, even.

In Computer Security it is known as the "whiteout"
attack vector.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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#256669

From<tomas@tuxteam.de>
Date2023-04-03 06:50 +0200
Message-ID<GgkiJ-gZya-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256664

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On Mon, Apr 03, 2023 at 05:44:31AM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> David Christensen wrote:
> 
> > Code that writes code is a very useful technique, and I use
> > it. Whitespace as syntax would only make that harder.
> 
> But if the whitespace is semantic, there's no saying it can't
> be used to produce even more - indeed, of its own kind, even.

[1]                       

Cheers

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language)
-- 
t

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#256670

From<tomas@tuxteam.de>
Date2023-04-03 06:50 +0200
Message-ID<GgkiJ-gZya-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#256658

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On Sun, Apr 02, 2023 at 07:24:25PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> On 4/2/23 14:57, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> > I'm afraid that Python has one specific feature that puts me off.
> > Sensitivity to indentation. To those who first had to learn 'make',
> > it's a sin that cannot be forgiven.
> 
> +1
> 
> 
> Code that writes code is a very useful technique, and I use it. Whitespace
> as syntax would only make that harder.

It does. Python lambdas /have/ to be one-liners. Guido Van Rossum's comment
on that is "well, Python isn't Lisp". More power to him, les Python for me :)

Cheers
-- 
t

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