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Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin?

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  Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? coreyh@free.fr - 2023-04-02 11:00 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-02 11:10 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 11:30 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2023-04-02 11:50 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 00:20 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Steve Sobol <steve@LobosStudios.com> - 2023-04-03 00:20 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2023-04-02 18:40 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-02 18:40 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 19:20 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-02 20:50 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 21:00 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 21:20 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 21:30 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-04-03 00:00 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 00:10 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Steve Sobol <steve@LobosStudios.com> - 2023-04-03 01:10 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 04:30 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 05:50 +0200
                      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-03 06:50 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-03 06:50 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-03 06:40 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 11:30 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:00 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-02 21:20 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 02:00 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Ken Young <ken@highwinds.cloud> - 2023-04-03 02:30 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 01:40 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 19:20 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-04-02 22:10 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 22:40 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2023-04-02 23:20 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 22:50 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 01:20 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-02 22:50 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2023-04-02 23:10 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? coreyh@free.fr - 2023-04-03 06:30 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-03 06:50 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? coreyh@free.fr - 2023-04-03 07:00 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stanislav Vlasov <stanislav.v.v@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 08:50 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 09:30 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 10:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stanislav Vlasov <stanislav.v.v@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 11:20 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 13:00 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2023-04-03 15:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stanislav Vlasov <stanislav.v.v@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 18:50 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Oliver Schoede <oliver.schode@online.de> - 2023-04-02 23:40 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 00:10 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 03:30 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-03 05:00 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 05:50 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-03 06:20 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-04 02:20 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2023-04-04 05:40 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-04 15:50 +0200
                      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2023-04-05 00:50 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2023-04-03 00:10 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 00:20 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 01:20 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 02:20 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Eduard Bloch <edi@gmx.de> - 2023-04-03 23:30 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Joel Roth <joelz@pobox.com> - 2023-04-04 00:30 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:20 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:00 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2023-04-08 16:30 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-08 18:30 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 18:40 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 18:50 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2023-04-08 19:50 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2023-04-08 21:20 +0200
                      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 21:40 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2023-04-09 05:40 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2023-04-04 04:00 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:20 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2023-04-08 16:50 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 17:10 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2023-04-11 04:20 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:30 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2023-04-05 04:10 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:50 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-02 23:20 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2023-04-02 23:40 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 23:50 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 00:10 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 23:40 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 05:50 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 20:00 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 20:20 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 20:50 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:20 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 20:20 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-03 20:50 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 21:00 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2023-04-08 05:50 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:40 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 22:00 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-03 22:10 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 22:30 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michael <ml@hemathor.de> - 2023-04-05 12:00 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michael <ml@hemathor.de> - 2023-04-05 12:00 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-04-05 12:10 +0200
                      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-05 13:30 +0200
                        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-05 13:40 +0200
                          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-04-05 14:00 +0200
                          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-05 14:20 +0200
                        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-04-05 13:40 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 21:50 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-03 05:10 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 18:40 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stanislav Vlasov <stanislav.v.v@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 19:10 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 19:40 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 19:50 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-04-03 19:20 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 19:50 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 19:40 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2023-04-03 20:30 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:10 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-08 15:20 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:30 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-09 00:20 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? conover@panix.com (John Conover) - 2023-04-09 05:00 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-04-04 15:40 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-04-04 15:50 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-04-04 16:40 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-04-04 19:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-04 19:40 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2023-04-04 20:00 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-04-04 21:00 +0200
                    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:40 +0200
                  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:50 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 17:00 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 17:10 +0200
      Computer anthropology and language wars [was: Is perl still the No.1  language for sysadmin?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-03 19:50 +0200

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#256668

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Apr 02, 2023 at 09:16:08PM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> >>>> But development is faster with Python [...]
> >>>
> >>> Is it?
> >> 
> >> Yes.
> >
> > Development is fastest using whatever language you know
> > best. This is not an objective argument.
> 
> Put it this way, a novice Python programmer can do more in
> Python than the novice Lisp programmer can do in Lisp, or, if
> you will, the same in less time.

I've seen people cutting off part of a door with a bread knife.

If you measure a tool by what a novice can achieve with it,
then, well, that's some metrics.

  "When someone says 'I want a programming language in
   which I need only say what I wish done,' give him a
   lollipop." [1]
   -- Alan Perlis

Cheers

[1] https://users.monash.edu/~lloyd/tildeMisc/1982/Perlis-Epigrams.html
-- 
t

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#256681

tomas wrote:

>> Put it this way, a novice Python programmer can do more in
>> Python than the novice Lisp programmer can do in Lisp, or,
>> if you will, the same in less time.
>
> I've seen people cutting off part of a door with
> a bread knife.

But that is using a poor tool for the job, here we are
talking, the tool is right, only the user has not come close
to mastering it, don't know its peculiarities, has limited
overview, and is still in a trial-and-error stage.

> If you measure a tool by what a novice can achieve with it,
> then, well, that's some metrics.

Yes, why not? But s/he can be at some medium level as well.

>   "When someone says 'I want a programming language in
>    which I need only say what I wish done,' give him a
>    lollipop." [1]
>    -- Alan Perlis

Ah, that quote refers to this song from our Danish and
Norwegian friends:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFaq6ViT6fs

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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#256865

tomas wrote:

>> Put it this way, a novice Python programmer can do more in
>> Python than the novice Lisp programmer can do in Lisp, or,
>> if you will, the same in less time.
>
> I've seen people cutting off part of a door with a bread knife.
>
> If you measure a tool by what a novice can achieve with it,
> then, well, that's some metrics.

Aha, now I understand this, it's a little misunderstanding ...

Yes, that doesn't necessarily translate to what the supposed
expert can do!

But I think it does in most cases and in this case as well I'm
positive, I mean let's keep it real guys, the supposed expert
is just a very skilled programmer, which is impressive but
nothing magical, so yes, I pretty positive it does translate
and ... actually, if anything a really skilled programmer can
use it even more, i.e. devel by a Python expert must
be LIGHTNING!

But it is still very much within bounds of reason both up and
down ...

Okay, guys, enough with the theory here, I'm gonna tell you
the truth right now.

Let's see, Python has much faster devel. Perl is cool for
text, it also belongs to another world. Lisp is like a trippy
language, in theory and in practice its the coolest by far,
_but_ it has slow devel. In terms of time. But the
interactiveness of Lisp like chops the time up? So it's even
slower?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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#256624

On Sun, Apr 02, 2023 at 08:55:49PM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomas wrote:
> 
> >> But development is faster with Python [...]
> >
> > Is it?
> 
> Yes.

Development is fastest using whatever language you know best.  This is
not an objective argument.

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#256649

On 4/2/23 12:11, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> Development is fastest using whatever language you know best.


I would add -- "that is suitable to the task".


David


p.s.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck

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#256652

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Our production system is using heavily perl (many thousand lines of perl5 code) - it's mod_perl, but still perl.

Thanks.

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#256648

On 4/2/23 10:14, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> tomas wrote:

>> But Python's lambdas are preposterous (not so Perl's ;-)
> 
> Well, can't compare either to Lisp, the Pythagorean theorem of
> computing ...


https://hop.perl.plover.com/

Preface

     Around 1993 I started reading books about Lisp, and I discovered
something important: Perl is much more like Lisp than it is like C. If
you pick up a good book about Lisp, there will be a section that
describes Lisp’s good features. For example, the book Paradigms of
Artificial Intelligence Programming, by Peter Norvig, includes a section
titled What Makes Lisp Different? that describes seven features of Lisp.
Perl shares six of these features; C shares none of them. These are big,
important features, features like first-class functions, dynamic access
to the symbol table, and automatic storage management. Lisp programmers
have been using these features since 1957. They know a lot about how to
use these language features in powerful ways. If Perl programmers can
find out the things that Lisp programmers already know, they will learn
a lot of things that will make their Perl programming jobs easier.


The one Lisp feature that is missing from (core) Perl is macros.


Using the techniques learned from HOP, I use higher order functions to 
substitute for macros.


Alternatively, there are macro modules available on CPAN:

https://metacpan.org/search?size=20&q=macro


David

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#256620

Nicholas Geovanis wrote:

>> I saw many commands in /bin and /usr/bin are written by
>> perl. is perl still the first choice for sysadmin on linux?
>
> I first wrote perl on unix/linux in 1991. The first python
> I wrote was about 10 years later.

It feels like Perl is old, not ancient like Lisp, but old,
while Python feels pretty modern, but the difference is
actually pretty slim, Perl is from 1987, and Python from 1991.

To be exact, Perl is from 1987-12-18, and Python from
1991-02-20, so Python is just 3y 2m 2d younger!

> Python is a more modern programming language than perl, and
> more in the European CS tradition. Larry Wall said directly
> that the OO features in perl were fake :-)

Maybe there are OO modules by now?

> because it was another fad. You can feel the difference in
> python. 3 styles you could code in python: old-fashioned
> procedural, functional like lisp, or modern OO.

Yeah, well, those paradigms are models to increase
understanding and have people theorize back and forth, and
there is nothing wrong with that, but IMO any good programming
language should be able to do and express all those concepts,
and more.

One aspect of Python is that so many people use it so there is
so much information, web pages, books, the works.
Whatever issue you have, Google will find a solution, pretty
much every time. I don't have more than "I've done it"
experience from Perl but if we compare Lisp to Python when it
comes to readily available web (and other) resources, Python
wins - and huge.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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#256626

Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:
 
> One aspect of Python is that so many people use it so there is
> so much information, web pages, books, the works.
> Whatever issue you have, Google will find a solution, pretty
> much every time. I don't have more than "I've done it"
> experience from Perl but if we compare Lisp to Python when it
> comes to readily available web (and other) resources, Python
> wins - and huge.

Duh, Python has nearly as much as Perl maybe :) Introducing Lisp as a
substitute for comparison is a neat idea but is still cheating!

CPAN is still the original and best. https://perldoc.perl.org/ is
pretty good. There are thousands (?) of books and lots of works, many
of them modules on CPAN. Then there's https://www.perlmonks.org/ or
just look at https://perlhacks.com/articles/rtfm/perl-websites/ for
many more.

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#256627

debian-user wrote:

>> One aspect of Python is that so many people use it so there
>> is so much information, web pages, books, the works.
>> Whatever issue you have, Google will find a solution,
>> pretty much every time. I don't have more than "I've done
>> it" experience from Perl but if we compare Lisp to Python
>> when it comes to readily available web (and other)
>> resources, Python wins - and huge.
>
> Duh, Python has nearly as much as Perl maybe :) Introducing
> Lisp as a substitute for comparison is a neat idea but is
> still cheating!
>
> CPAN is still the original and best.
> https://perldoc.perl.org/ is pretty good. There are
> thousands (?) of books and lots of works, many of them
> modules on CPAN. Then there's https://www.perlmonks.org/ or
> just look at
> https://perlhacks.com/articles/rtfm/perl-websites/ for
> many more.

Okay, maybe you're right ... Where I come from almost everyone
knows some (enough) Python whereas Perl is much more
old-school coolness. But granted I don't come from all places.

But I still think I'm right, don't people say for example LAMP
- Linux Apache MySQL Perl, nowadays Python, mostly?

Isn't it much more in use?

And "My" is a Swedish name, not an English possessive pronoun,
and SQL is pronounced "seekwell" :)

Okay, my school isn't old school but it is getting there ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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#256631

On Sun, 02 Apr 2023 22:32:51 +0200
Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:

> and SQL is pronounced "seekwell" :)

No, it's pronounced "sqwill", as in something you really don't want to
drink.

> 
> Okay, my school isn't old school but it is getting there ...

Give it time.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#256629

debian-user wrote:

>> One aspect of Python is that so many people use it so there
>> is so much information, web pages, books, the works.
>> Whatever issue you have, Google will find a solution,
>> pretty much every time. I don't have more than "I've done
>> it" experience from Perl but if we compare Lisp to Python
>> when it comes to readily available web (and other)
>> resources, Python wins - and huge.
>
> Duh, Python has nearly as much as Perl maybe :) Introducing
> Lisp as a substitute for comparison is a neat idea but is
> still cheating!

Yeah, good point, don't know where that came from, as for
Python vs Perl with respect to development speed I have no
idea since I don't have enough Perl experience, still, I think
it's fair to say Python development is very fast if we don't
compare it to anything else in particular. (Illogical, but you
understand what I mean.)

But okay then, learn Python first since it is much more in
use, then?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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#256647

On 4/2/23 10:09, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Nicholas Geovanis wrote:

>> Larry Wall said directly
>> that the OO features in perl were fake :-)
> 
> Maybe there are OO modules by now?


https://perldoc.perl.org/perlootut#PERL-OO-SYSTEMS


David

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#256628

Le 2 avril 2023 Nicholas Geovanis a écrit :

> Python is a more modern programming language than perl, and more in the
> European CS tradition. Larry Wall said directly that the OO features in
> perl were fake :-) because it was another fad. You can feel the difference
> in python. 3 styles you could code in python: old-fashioned procedural,
> functional like lisp, or modern OO.

IMO style is perhaps important for development. But libs et regex are
more important for sysadmin. I use python if a library is there or if I
need to interface another python program. In example mutagen for covering
mp3 files. And I use perl everywhere when I need a regex: parsing logs
and the like. Specially with backref and substitution which are painful
with python (IMO).

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#256630

On Sun, Apr 2, 2023 at 3:42 PM Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> wrote:
>
> Le 2 avril 2023 Nicholas Geovanis a écrit :
>
> > Python is a more modern programming language than perl, and more in the
> > European CS tradition. Larry Wall said directly that the OO features in
> > perl were fake :-) because it was another fad. You can feel the difference

Larry Wall and his many helpers released Perl 6 (now Raku) on
Christmas Day, 2015. It is a much more modern language than Python,
and it was designed as a "one-hundred year language." Check it out at
https://Raku.org.

-Tom

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#256667

On 03/04/2023 04:59, Tom Browder wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 2, 2023 at 3:42 PM Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> wrote:
>> 
>> Le 2 avril 2023 Nicholas Geovanis a écrit :
>> 
>> > Python is a more modern programming language than perl, and more in the
>> > European CS tradition. Larry Wall said directly that the OO features in
>> > perl were fake :-) because it was another fad. You can feel the difference
> 
> Larry Wall and his many helpers released Perl 6 (now Raku) on
> Christmas Day, 2015. It is a much more modern language than Python,
> and it was designed as a "one-hundred year language." Check it out at
> https://Raku.org.
> 
> -Tom

I am just not sure, why perl6 is named to raku?
for instance, in my default installation of debian 11, it has python3 
pre-installed.

$ python3 -V
Python 3.9.2

I think python3 is much different to python2, but it's still naming as 
python.

If perl6 was just named as perl6, isn't it more clear?

regards.
Corey

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#256671

Hello,

On Mon, Apr 03, 2023 at 12:23:19PM +0800, coreyh@free.fr wrote:
> I am just not sure, why perl6 is named to raku?

Because Perl 5 still exists and is still seeing new releases, and
what is now Raku is a completely different language, so there is no
prospect of Perl 5 ceasing to be developed with all its users moving
to what was then called Perl 6. Perl 6 needed a new name so as to
stop being a source of confusion between itself and Perl 5.

> I think python3 is much different to python2, but it's still naming as
> python.

The Python Software Foundation has marked CPython 2 (the default
Python interpreter) as End Of Life since 2020. It also owns the
trademark to "Python" and will not allow anyone else to make an
interpreter that is called Python that extends the life of Python 2
with new features. The only existing distributable versions of
CPython 2 are either old releases or strictly security fixes. The
PSF wants Python 2 to die; they only concern themselves with Python
3.

There are actively developed language interpreters that are
compatible with Python 2 that aren't called Python, e.g. PyPy and
Jython. So in fact even Python 2 is not yet dead as a language.

> If perl6 was just named as perl6, isn't it more clear?

Perl 5 still has plenty of active developers of both itself and
applications written in it who don't want to move to Raku. Raku is a
lot more different to Perl 5 than Python 3 is different to Python 2.
The Perl Foundation (which owns the Perl and Raku trademarks)
doesn't want Perl 5 to die.

So hopefully you can see now that things are different because
things are different.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#256672

On 03/04/2023 12:43, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Mon, Apr 03, 2023 at 12:23:19PM +0800, coreyh@free.fr wrote:
>> I am just not sure, why perl6 is named to raku?
> 
> Because Perl 5 still exists and is still seeing new releases, and
> what is now Raku is a completely different language, so there is no
> prospect of Perl 5 ceasing to be developed with all its users moving
> to what was then called Perl 6. Perl 6 needed a new name so as to
> stop being a source of confusion between itself and Perl 5.
> 
>> I think python3 is much different to python2, but it's still naming as
>> python.
> 
> The Python Software Foundation has marked CPython 2 (the default
> Python interpreter) as End Of Life since 2020. It also owns the
> trademark to "Python" and will not allow anyone else to make an
> interpreter that is called Python that extends the life of Python 2
> with new features. The only existing distributable versions of
> CPython 2 are either old releases or strictly security fixes. The
> PSF wants Python 2 to die; they only concern themselves with Python
> 3.
> 
> There are actively developed language interpreters that are
> compatible with Python 2 that aren't called Python, e.g. PyPy and
> Jython. So in fact even Python 2 is not yet dead as a language.
> 
>> If perl6 was just named as perl6, isn't it more clear?
> 
> Perl 5 still has plenty of active developers of both itself and
> applications written in it who don't want to move to Raku. Raku is a
> lot more different to Perl 5 than Python 3 is different to Python 2.
> The Perl Foundation (which owns the Perl and Raku trademarks)
> doesn't want Perl 5 to die.
> 
> So hopefully you can see now that things are different because
> things are different.
> 


That's good info for perl5 and 6. Thanks for telling us.

regards.

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#256676

пн, 3 апр. 2023 г. в 09:23, <coreyh@free.fr>:
> I think python3 is much different to python2, but it's still naming as
> python.

Not so much different as perl5 vs raku. I'm not a programmer, but can
write large (more than 10kB) scripth, which can run with python2 or
python3 on different systems.
And I saw perl5 scripts from past (about 5.6 or lower), which can't
run on perl5 from current (5.22 or so at the moment).

-- 
Stanislav

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#256677

On 4/2/23 23:48, Stanislav Vlasov wrote:
> пн, 3 апр. 2023 г. в 09:23, <coreyh@free.fr>:
>> I think python3 is much different to python2, but it's still naming as
>> python.
> 
> Not so much different as perl5 vs raku. I'm not a programmer, but can
> write large (more than 10kB) scripth, which can run with python2 or
> python3 on different systems.
> And I saw perl5 scripts from past (about 5.6 or lower), which can't
> run on perl5 from current (5.22 or so at the moment).


The latest Perl stable release is 5.36.0:

https://www.cpan.org/src/README.html


I use the system Perl on my computers.  For Debian:

2023-04-03 00:04:32 dpchrist@taz ~
$ cat /etc/debian_version ; uname -a
11.6
Linux taz 5.10.0-21-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 5.10.162-1 (2023-01-21) x86_64 
GNU/Linux

2023-04-03 00:04:38 dpchrist@taz ~
$ perl -v | head -n 2 | tail -n 1
This is perl 5, version 32, subversion 1 (v5.32.1) built for 
x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi


I started on Perl 5.4.  Perl introduced threads in 5.6 (technically 5.5, 
but that was a development branch and I use stable).  Threads were 
redesigned in 5.8 and I use them.  AIUI some features added in 5.10 and 
later must be explicitly enabled.  I try to write Perl in 5.8 style, but 
may be using later features without realizing it.  Perl has become 
faster and more robust over the years, and the syntax checking, 
warnings, error messages, and documentation have improved.  I believe 
all of my production Perl scripts are I/O bound, not CPU or memory bound.


David

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