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Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston.

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  Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. peter@easthope.ca - 2021-12-31 05:10 +0100
    Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. Georgi Naplatanov <gosho@oles.biz> - 2021-12-31 21:50 +0100
      Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. peter@easthope.ca - 2022-01-01 18:40 +0100
        Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. Georgi Naplatanov <gosho@oles.biz> - 2022-01-01 19:10 +0100
    Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2022-01-01 22:30 +0100
      Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2022-01-02 14:50 +0100
      Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. peter@easthope.ca - 2022-01-02 18:30 +0100
      Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. peter@easthope.ca - 2022-01-26 15:30 +0100
    Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2022-01-12 19:40 +0100
      Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. peter@easthope.ca - 2022-01-18 05:40 +0100
        Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2022-01-18 13:30 +0100
          Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. peter@easthope.ca - 2022-01-18 17:30 +0100
            Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2022-01-21 10:20 +0100
              Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. peter@easthope.ca - 2022-01-24 00:50 +0100
                Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2022-01-24 09:00 +0100
              Re: Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston. peter@easthope.ca - 2022-01-24 19:10 +0100

#243551 — Hyper-typematic and Firefox responsiveness in Weston.

Hi,

Debian 11 is easily arranged so that "startx" or "weston" can be 
issued at the console command line.  That allows simple qualitative 
comparisons.

In weston, keyboard response can be hyper-typematic.  The briefest 
keypress can give at least two instances of the key action; sometimes a 
half dozen.  That includes backspace.  Consequently keyboard input is 
impossible. This happens not in every instance of weston but often 
enough to be a nuisance. Has anyone else observed this?

According to documentation, Firefox works natively in Weston.  Ie. 
Firefox doesn't work through Xwayland. With Wayland intended to be 
more efficient than X11 I expect Firefox to be more responsive on 
Weston than on X11.  Nevertheless Firefox is noticeably slower on 
Weston. Anyone else observed this?

Thanks & best regards,             ... P.




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#243560

On 12/31/21 05:48, peter@easthope.ca wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Debian 11 is easily arranged so that "startx" or "weston" can be 
> issued at the console command line.  That allows simple qualitative 
> comparisons.
> 
> In weston, keyboard response can be hyper-typematic.  The briefest 
> keypress can give at least two instances of the key action; sometimes a 
> half dozen.  That includes backspace.  Consequently keyboard input is 
> impossible. This happens not in every instance of weston but often 
> enough to be a nuisance. Has anyone else observed this?
> 
> According to documentation, Firefox works natively in Weston.  Ie. 
> Firefox doesn't work through Xwayland. With Wayland intended to be 
> more efficient than X11 I expect Firefox to be more responsive on 
> Weston than on X11.  Nevertheless Firefox is noticeably slower on 
> Weston. Anyone else observed this?
> 

Hi Peter,

I just tested Firefox on KDE and Wayland (on Debian testing) and I
didn't notice any issue. I tried a few clips on youtube.com and a few
sites for open source software.

Kind regards
Georgi

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#243568

Hello Georgi,

Thanks for the reply and greetings for the New Year.

    From: Georgi Naplatanov <gosho@oles.biz>
    Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 22:41:43 +0200
    Message-id: <[🔎] 10e5a66a-e9f9-1d1a-a67b-a283fb5c7b62@oles.biz>
    In-reply-to: <[🔎] E1n38th-0000rt-2j@joule>
    References: <[🔎] E1n38th-0000rt-2j@joule>

> I just tested Firefox on KDE and Wayland (on Debian testing) and I
> didn't notice any issue. 

Two possibilities.
(1) Your machine architecture is generally more advanced than mine. 
Latencies aren't noticeable.

(2) Your machine has one or more ASIC chips lacking here.  An ASIC 
accelerating graphic processing might prevent latencies.

> I tried a few clips on youtube.com 

For youtube I use an Alcatel tablet.  

> ... and a few sites for open source software.

The desktop here is primarily for email and editing in Wikimedia 
projects. Ie. shunting characters.  Even an old 486 machine can do 
that. The difficulties are in the interface rather than in computing 
power.

Thanks,                              ... P.

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#243571

On 1/1/22 19:14, peter@easthope.ca wrote:
> Hello Georgi,
> 
> Thanks for the reply and greetings for the New Year.
> 
>     From: Georgi Naplatanov <gosho@oles.biz>
>     Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 22:41:43 +0200
>     Message-id: <[🔎] 10e5a66a-e9f9-1d1a-a67b-a283fb5c7b62@oles.biz>
>     In-reply-to: <[🔎] E1n38th-0000rt-2j@joule>
>     References: <[🔎] E1n38th-0000rt-2j@joule>
> 
>> I just tested Firefox on KDE and Wayland (on Debian testing) and I
>> didn't notice any issue. 
> 
> Two possibilities.
> (1) Your machine architecture is generally more advanced than mine. 
> Latencies aren't noticeable.
> 
> (2) Your machine has one or more ASIC chips lacking here.  An ASIC 
> accelerating graphic processing might prevent latencies.
> 
>> I tried a few clips on youtube.com 
> 
> For youtube I use an Alcatel tablet.  
> 
>> ... and a few sites for open source software.
> 
> The desktop here is primarily for email and editing in Wikimedia 
> projects. Ie. shunting characters.  Even an old 486 machine can do 
> that. The difficulties are in the interface rather than in computing 
> power.
> 

I tried on VirtualBox and CPU is Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-8700 CPU @
3.20GHz, GPU is the embedded one in the CPU - Intel UHD Graphics 630

Happy new year!

Kind regards
Georgi

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#243575

> In weston, keyboard response can be hyper-typematic.  The briefest 
> keypress can give at least two instances of the key action; sometimes a 
> half dozen.  That includes backspace.  Consequently keyboard input is 
> impossible. This happens not in every instance of weston but often 
> enough to be a nuisance. Has anyone else observed this?

I haven't and haven't heard of other people experiencing this until the
above message.  I suggest you file a bug report.


        Stefan

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#243581

On 2022-01-01, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>> In weston, keyboard response can be hyper-typematic.  The briefest 
>> keypress can give at least two instances of the key action; sometimes a 
>> half dozen.  That includes backspace.  Consequently keyboard input is 
>> impossible. This happens not in every instance of weston but often 
>> enough to be a nuisance. Has anyone else observed this?
>
> I haven't and haven't heard of other people experiencing this until the
> above message.  I suggest you file a bug report.

I've never heard the expression "hyper-typematic" and neither has my
search engine, so even the neological description appears to confine to
the very narrowest of corner cases.



>         Stefan
>
>

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#243585

Stefan & all,
    
    From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
    Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2022 16:23:10 -0500
> I haven't and haven't heard of other people experiencing this until the
> above message.  

I'm still curious about adoption of Wayland/Weston by people reading 
here.  Does anyone use Weston routinely?  Start Weston, try one or a 
few applications briefly and return to X?

> I suggest you file a bug report.

Well yes.  Did my duty this week with a report against udev. Next week 
I might report the problem with X.  While Weston remains so slow, it 
will be a very low priority.

Incidentally, a little progress with X.  In my usage, X begins with 
multiple desktops.  Default behaviour here; I didn't choose it.  A 
spontaneous switch to an empty desktop leaves a display which is 
completely black for OpenBox; mostly black when a desktop environment 
is present.  In the desktop environment the toolbar has an icon 
allowing reversion to the working desktop.  Annoying but not critical.

In OpenBox the black screen was puzzling until I noticed that MM gives 
a desktop switch menu. Reverting to the working desktop is simple 
enough.  =8~)  (MM = middle mouse)

Multiple desktops is a cute embellishment  =8~|  but the installation 
default should be a single desktop.  Let the user add desktops 
according to taste.

Regards,                             ... P.




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#244623

    From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
    Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2022 16:23:10 -0500
> I suggest you file a bug report.

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1004358

Regards,                             ... P.


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#243929

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Slightly late to the party ;)

On Jo, 30 dec 21, 19:48:05, peter@easthope.ca wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Debian 11 is easily arranged so that "startx" or "weston" can be 
> issued at the console command line.  That allows simple qualitative 
> comparisons.
> 
> In weston, keyboard response can be hyper-typematic.  The briefest 
> keypress can give at least two instances of the key action; sometimes a 
> half dozen.  That includes backspace.  Consequently keyboard input is 
> impossible. This happens not in every instance of weston but often 
> enough to be a nuisance. Has anyone else observed this?

Works fine here, out of the box, on a pretty bare bones installation (no 
X or Desktop Environment).

> According to documentation, Firefox works natively in Weston.  Ie. 
> Firefox doesn't work through Xwayland. With Wayland intended to be 
> more efficient than X11 I expect Firefox to be more responsive on 
> Weston than on X11.  Nevertheless Firefox is noticeably slower on 
> Weston. Anyone else observed this?

Are you passing any special parameters to Firefox? 

Currently I'm setting 'MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1', but don't remember if this 
was necessary to get Firefox to even start or I just wanted to make 
really sure Firefox is running natively on Wayland (i.e. without some X 
compatibility layer or something).

Hope this helps,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#244160

    From: Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com>
    Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 19:29:33 +0100
> Works fine here, out of the box, on a pretty bare bones installation (no 
> X or Desktop Environment).

Yesterday evening, tried Weston briefly on a Vaio PCG-71312L.  No 
obvious problems.

 > Are you passing any special parameters to Firefox? 
 
This shell function is defined in .bashrc and used to start firefox.

fire () { case $# in
  0) /usr/bin/firefox-esr --display=:0 file:///home/peter/MY/Peter.html#Links & ;;
  1) /usr/bin/firefox-esr --display=:0 $1 & ;;
  *) echo "Too many arguments." ;; esac }

This might be better.
alias fire='exec /usr/bin/firefox-esr --display=:0 "$@"'

> Currently I'm setting 'MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1', ...

In .bashrc here.
export MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1

When there's time, can make a bug report.

Thx,              ... P.
 
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#244174

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 08:13:58PM -0800, peter@easthope.ca wrote:
> This shell function is defined in .bashrc and used to start firefox.
> 
> fire () { case $# in
>   0) /usr/bin/firefox-esr --display=:0 file:///home/peter/MY/Peter.html#Links & ;;
>   1) /usr/bin/firefox-esr --display=:0 $1 & ;;
>   *) echo "Too many arguments." ;; esac }

"$1" should be quoted there, and the } will need to be on a separate line,
or else you'll need a semicolon between esac and }.

I'd also advise against hard-coding paths like /usr/bin/firefox-esr in
your dot files.  Paths can change over time.  Just use firefox-esr.

> This might be better.
> alias fire='exec /usr/bin/firefox-esr --display=:0 "$@"'

Bash aliases don't take positional parameters like that.  Also, you
wouldn't want "exec" here -- running this alias would terminate the shell.

Since bash aliases don't take positional parameters, there's really no
way to do the background thing with arguments using an alias.  So, stick
with the function here.  As the bash(1) manual says,

       There  is no mechanism for using arguments in the replacement text.  If
       arguments are needed, a shell function should be  used  (see  FUNCTIONS
       below).

And,

       For almost every purpose, aliases are superseded by shell functions.

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#244194

    From: Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org>
    Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 07:22:53 -0500
> "$1" should be quoted there, and the } will need to be on a separate line,
> or else you'll need a semicolon between esac and }.
> 
> I'd also advise against hard-coding paths like /usr/bin/firefox-esr in
> your dot files.  Paths can change over time.  Just use firefox-esr.

> Also, you wouldn't want "exec" here -- running this alias would terminate the shell.

Thanks.  Revised version.

fire () { case "$#" in
  0) firefox-esr --display=:0 file:///home/peter/MY/Peter.html#Links & ;;
  1) firefox-esr --display=:0 "$1" & ;;
  *) echo "Too many arguments." ;; esac
}

> For almost every purpose, aliases are superseded by shell functions.

Casting to C and compiling is also a nice exercise.  

Thanks,                               ... P.







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#244254

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Ma, 18 ian 22, 08:10:30, peter@easthope.ca wrote:
> 
> Thanks.  Revised version.
> 
> fire () { case "$#" in
>   0) firefox-esr --display=:0 file:///home/peter/MY/Peter.html#Links & ;;
>   1) firefox-esr --display=:0 "$1" & ;;
>   *) echo "Too many arguments." ;; esac
> }

According to the manpage '--display' is an X11 option.

Could it be that it actually forces Firefox to run via XWayland or so?

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#244467

    From: Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com>
    Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 10:15:56 +0100
> According to the manpage '--display' is an X11 option.
> 
> Could it be that it actually forces Firefox to run via XWayland or so?

I should find a way to know the variant of FF which is running.  
Xwayland or weston native.

Before pursuing that, I've put the stderr output from weston at 
http://easthope.ca/WestonStdErr . Plain ASCII text.  Firefox opens it.

Lines toward the end merit attention.

* Beginning at [14:32:22.019] ... Microsoft 3-Button Mouse with IntelliEye ... events have been lost. 

* [14:32:28.210] ... Microsoft 3-Button Mouse ... rate limit exceeded (5 msgs per 30s). ...

5 msgs per 30s exceeds a rate limit in a computer?  Granted this is an 
old machine but it's a computer not an abacus.

The observed hyper-typematic behaviour is related to lost mouse events?

A bug report is materializing but further ideas welcome.

Thx,                           ... P.

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#244498

On Sun, 2022-01-23 at 15:25 -0800, peter@easthope.ca wrote:
[...]
> Lines toward the end merit attention.
> 
> * Beginning at [14:32:22.019] ... Microsoft 3-Button Mouse with IntelliEye ... events have been lost. 
> 
> * [14:32:28.210] ... Microsoft 3-Button Mouse ... rate limit exceeded (5 msgs per 30s). ...
> 
> 5 msgs per 30s exceeds a rate limit in a computer?  Granted this is an 
> old machine but it's a computer not an abacus.

That limit is on the rate the kernel produces the messages, a lot of
warnings are programmed that way to avoid spamming your logs too much.

-- 
Tixy

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#244530

The References list was becoming too long.  I've truncated it.

    From: Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com>
    Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 10:15:56 +0100
> According to the manpage '--display' is an X11 option.
> 
> Could it be that it actually forces Firefox to run via XWayland or so?

Right oh.  I added this to .bashrc and tried on weston.

firew () { case "$#" in
  0) firefox-esr file:///home/peter/MY/Peter.html#Links & ;;
  1) firefox-esr "$1" & ;;
  *) echo "Too many arguments." ;; esac
  }

Unfortunately, no improvement apparent.

Thx,              ... P.


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