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Groups > linux.debian.user > #244003 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2022-01-15 11:30 +0100 |
| Last post | 2022-01-25 07:40 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 79 — 22 participants |
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Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2022-01-15 11:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2022-01-15 13:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Anders Andersson <pipatron@gmail.com> - 2022-01-16 17:20 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-16 22:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? harryweaver@tutanota.com - 2022-01-17 01:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-17 23:20 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? harryweaver@tutanota.com - 2022-01-17 23:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2022-01-18 00:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2022-01-18 00:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-18 00:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2022-01-22 14:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2022-01-22 14:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2022-01-22 15:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2022-01-22 20:40 +0100
[SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2022-01-23 00:30 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2022-01-23 19:50 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2022-01-23 20:20 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-23 21:10 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2022-01-23 21:10 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 21:20 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2022-01-23 21:40 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Jim Popovitch <jim@k4vqc.com> - 2022-01-23 21:50 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-23 23:00 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? RP <reyadmin@gmail.com> - 2022-01-24 00:10 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2022-01-24 00:40 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-24 01:00 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2022-01-24 01:30 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-24 02:20 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-24 03:50 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-24 04:20 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-24 03:50 +0100
Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-24 22:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 09:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 12:30 +0100
"Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2022-01-23 12:40 +0100
Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2022-01-23 13:00 +0100
Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2022-01-23 15:00 +0100
Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 21:00 +0100
Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 13:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2022-01-23 11:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 11:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 11:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 12:20 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2022-01-23 16:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2022-01-23 17:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 11:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-23 11:20 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 11:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-23 13:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 13:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2022-01-23 13:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 13:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-23 15:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-23 14:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 12:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2022-01-23 15:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-23 21:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2022-01-24 20:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? RP <reyadmin@gmail.com> - 2022-01-24 20:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-25 00:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? max <maxwillb@mailfence.com> - 2022-01-24 01:40 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? RP <reyadmin@gmail.com> - 2022-01-24 01:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-24 02:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-24 03:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? max <maxwillb@mailfence.com> - 2022-01-24 04:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? max <maxwillb@mailfence.com> - 2022-01-24 03:50 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2022-01-24 21:10 +0100
Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2022-01-24 00:30 +0100
Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? max <maxwillb@mailfence.com> - 2022-01-24 11:00 +0100
Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? harryweaver@tutanota.com - 2022-01-24 11:10 +0100
Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2022-01-24 12:50 +0100
[CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?] "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2022-01-24 18:00 +0100
Re: [CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?] Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2022-01-24 18:40 +0100
Re: [CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-01-24 19:10 +0100
Re: [CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?] RP <reyadmin@gmail.com> - 2022-01-24 19:10 +0100
Re: [CODE OF CONDUCT REMINDER - WAS Re: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?] Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2022-01-24 19:10 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@pimeys.fr> - 2022-01-24 22:00 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2022-01-25 01:30 +0100
Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-01-25 07:40 +0100
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| From | local10 <local10@tutanota.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 21:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIROy-4rl-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244446 |
Jan 23, 2022, 20:12 by debian@polynamaude.com: > You'd leave because you have to be held responsible for your actions ? > What actions? Based on the message ( https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00186.html ) it looks like they came up with the verdict first and then started to look for "evidence/actions" to justify the verdict. Pretty pathetic if you ask me but whatever. Regards,
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| From | Jim Popovitch <jim@k4vqc.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 21:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIRYe-4uV-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244449 |
On Sun, 2022-01-23 at 21:34 +0100, local10 wrote: > Jan 23, 2022, 20:12 by debian@polynamaude.com: > > > You'd leave because you have to be held responsible for your actions ? > > > > What actions? Based on the message ( https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00186.html ) it looks like they came up with the verdict first and then started to look for "evidence/actions" to justify the verdict. Pretty pathetic if you ask me but whatever. > > Regards, > You're reading it wrong. Ian was not part of the decision. -Jim P.
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| From | Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 23:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIT3X-577-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244449 |
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local10 <local10@tutanota.com> wrote on 23/01/2022 at 21:34:19+0100: > Jan 23, 2022, 20:12 by debian@polynamaude.com: > >> You'd leave because you have to be held responsible for your actions ? >> > > What actions? Based on the message > ( https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00186.html ) it > looks like they came up with the verdict first and then started to > look for "evidence/actions" to justify the verdict. Pretty pathetic if > you ask me but whatever. > > Regards, It *could* look like it, but that's not it. What happened is that DAM took a decision, which was challenged by some Developers, among with some were willing to start a General Resolution to overturn DAM's decision. In that heated discussion, Ian decided to collect any bad interaction between Norbert and any other person to disclose these before the GR starts and is voted on. As I already said, but you apparently decided to not read, Ian was not part of the decision making at any part, and, apart from the others who replied, two DAM members told him it wasn't fine. You really should look the whole thread, instead of cherry-picking what serves your idea. -- PEB
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| From | RP <reyadmin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-24 00:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIU9I-5YM-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244456 |
n 1/23/22 13:43, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > local10 <local10@tutanota.com> wrote on 23/01/2022 at 21:34:19+0100: > >> Jan 23, 2022, 20:12 by debian@polynamaude.com: >> >>> You'd leave because you have to be held responsible for your actions ? >>> >> What actions? Based on the message >> ( https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/01/msg00186.html ) it >> looks like they came up with the verdict first and then started to >> look for "evidence/actions" to justify the verdict. Pretty pathetic if >> you ask me but whatever. >> >> Regards, > It *could* look like it, but that's not it. > > What happened is that DAM took a decision, which was challenged by some > Developers, among with some were willing to start a General Resolution > to overturn DAM's decision. > > In that heated discussion, Ian decided to collect any bad interaction > between Norbert and any other person to disclose these before the GR > starts and is voted on. > > As I already said, but you apparently decided to not read, Ian was not > part of the decision making at any part, and, apart from the others who > replied, two DAM members told him it wasn't fine. > > You really should look the whole thread, instead of cherry-picking what > serves your idea. > Another case of people needing to be spoon fed.
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| From | local10 <local10@tutanota.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-24 00:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIUCJ-689-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244449 |
Jan 23, 2022, 21:43 by peb@debian.org: > What happened is that DAM took a decision, which was challenged by some > Developers, among with some were willing to start a General Resolution > to overturn DAM's decision. > > In that heated discussion, Ian decided to collect any bad interaction > between Norbert and any other person to disclose these before the GR > starts and is voted on. > > As I already said, but you apparently decided to not read, Ian was not > part of the decision making at any part, and, apart from the others who > replied, two DAM members told him it wasn't fine. > Sounds sketchy but whatever. Is there a list of all the horrible things Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him? As a Debian and KDE user I'm trying to understand if Debian leadership was reasonable in demoting a valuable and long-term developer (because a project managed by unreasonable leadership is doomed). Regards,
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| From | Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-24 01:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIUW5-6eO-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244465 |
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On 2022-01-23 18:32, local10 wrote: > Jan 23, 2022, 21:43 by peb@debian.org: > >> What happened is that DAM took a decision, which was challenged by some >> Developers, among with some were willing to start a General Resolution >> to overturn DAM's decision. >> >> In that heated discussion, Ian decided to collect any bad interaction >> between Norbert and any other person to disclose these before the GR >> starts and is voted on. >> >> As I already said, but you apparently decided to not read, Ian was not >> part of the decision making at any part, and, apart from the others who >> replied, two DAM members told him it wasn't fine. >> > > Sounds sketchy but whatever. Is there a list of all the horrible things Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him? As a Debian and KDE user I'm trying to understand if Debian leadership was reasonable in demoting a valuable and long-term developer (because a project managed by unreasonable leadership is doomed). > Are you going to do the same complex investigation for all other Linux distribution you may plan to use ? And also for all the software used in building the Debian distribution ? Because if any of them, let say Apache LibreOffice would be badly managed (as your judgment) then it would be doomed (as your judgment). So if you want to act fair play in every part of the game then it's not only the distribution that has to be evaluated but also the whole system. Because Debian only package software together and if any one of them would fail, there's no guarantee that any of the Debian members would pick up to continue development. Whatever proof you may expect, it was already provided on this mailing list, many times to you in the threads. You seem much more interested in finding objectionable action taken than to saying thanks for the job done. What have you contributed lately ? > Regards, > > -- Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
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| From | local10 <local10@tutanota.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-24 01:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIVp7-6Ds-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244469 |
Jan 23, 2022, 23:58 by debian@polynamaude.com: > > >> Sounds sketchy but whatever. Is there a list of all the horrible things Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him? As a Debian and KDE user I'm trying to understand if Debian leadership was reasonable in demoting a valuable and long-term developer (because a project managed by unreasonable leadership is doomed). >> > Are you going to do the same complex investigation for all other Linux > distribution you may plan to use ? > > And also for all the software used in building the Debian distribution ? > I asked you a simple question: Is there a list of all the horrible things Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him? Instead of providing a clear answer to the question you seem to be more interesting in engaging in sophism and detracting from the essence of the matter. In a way this is also an answer, it just shows and you are evasive and want to rely on trickery and distractions to support your point instead of facts. Anyhow, I've heard enough.
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| From | Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-24 02:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIWbv-78w-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244473 |
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On 2022-01-23 19:27, local10 wrote: > Jan 23, 2022, 23:58 by debian@polynamaude.com: > >> >> >>> Sounds sketchy but whatever. Is there a list of all the horrible things Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him? As a Debian and KDE user I'm trying to understand if Debian leadership was reasonable in demoting a valuable and long-term developer (because a project managed by unreasonable leadership is doomed). >>> >> Are you going to do the same complex investigation for all other Linux >> distribution you may plan to use ? >> >> And also for all the software used in building the Debian distribution ? >> > > I asked you a simple question: Is there a list of all the horrible things Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him? What about this for a answer.... What we call disciplinary record (in the human resources world it's called this way) is something private, same as the deliberation of a sanction to impose. Only the judgement is public (rule of natural justice). Why would you be entitled to have such information ? Anyway, I wasn't part of anything regarding the action taken. But I've seen this answered many times on the mailing list and you seem to be asking again and again. > > Instead of providing a clear answer to the question you seem to be more interesting in engaging in sophism and detracting from the essence of the matter. In a way this is also an answer, it just shows and you are evasive and want to rely on trickery and distractions to support your point instead of facts. > > Anyhow, I've heard enough. > We've all heard enough of this unproductive debate. This was my last intervention on this matter. As part of a group or a society as a whole, we have to accept decision taken that we don't always agree to but that we have agreed to the rules behind such decision. The use of the whole Debian infrastructure mean you agree to the Debian Code of Conduct. The said code was used to take action by the specific actors that led to both the decision and it's consequences. By using the mailing list, you agree upon accepting the Debian Code of Conduct. The time is over when it was acceptable for people to act in anti-social behavior but that we put sunglasses over blind eye because such person was considered of good technical expertise. If Linus Torvals was able to look upon himself and admit that time have changed then maybe it's time for others to follow his example. And I'm not saying to act rude like he did but to see that time have changed (for the better or worse, this is not the question here). You guys seem to take this same as if it was a religious matter. So it's real hard to have any discussion. Ever when we show a track of evidence, you don't even look at them or simply cherry pick what you feel. Sincerely, > > -- Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
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| From | Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-24 03:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIXAD-7Vd-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244473 |
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On 2022-01-23 21:27, deloptes wrote: > local10 wrote: > >> I asked you a simple question: Is there a list of all the horrible things >> Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him? >> >> Instead of providing a clear answer to the question you seem to be more >> interesting in engaging in sophism and detracting from the essence of the >> matter. In a way this is also an answer, it just shows and you are evasive >> and want to rely on trickery and distractions to support your point >> instead of facts. >> >> Anyhow, I've heard enough. > > yes, it is meaningless - as I mentioned it looks like Debian is being indeed > hijacked and Polyna is good example of liberal left that you can not talk > to - never gives up and do not provide logical or meaningful discussions. Could you please stop bringing up politics and unrelated subject. This seems to me close to harassment. You have been asked to stop this more than once. There's no such thing as liberal and leftist in this story. Whatever side you are (right or left) both are elected. You have no such clue as who I vote for or whatsoever of my personal life. So stop acting out like a spoon fed child. > > In fact it is impossible to find a common ground. As Charles Curley it is a > difference in the world view. I just hope that people grow up and learn how > important it is to be cooperative. > > In fact just recently something similar happened to an honored professor who > is famous for his contributions to argumentation theory. Someone censored > an article of his by simply removing it from their scholar forum. > Fortunately this someone was fired in the case. It shows how far we've gone > and I am afraid the future will be even worse. I hope I am wrong. > Thank you -- Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
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| From | deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-24 04:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIY3D-8qy-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244482 |
Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: > This seems to me close to harassment. its just popcorn but you'll obviously never get it. please stop as well and thank you in advance -- FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0
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| From | deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-24 03:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DIXAD-7Vd-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244473 |
local10 wrote: > I asked you a simple question: Is there a list of all the horrible things > Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to demote him? > > Instead of providing a clear answer to the question you seem to be more > interesting in engaging in sophism and detracting from the essence of the > matter. In a way this is also an answer, it just shows and you are evasive > and want to rely on trickery and distractions to support your point > instead of facts. > > Anyhow, I've heard enough. yes, it is meaningless - as I mentioned it looks like Debian is being indeed hijacked and Polyna is good example of liberal left that you can not talk to - never gives up and do not provide logical or meaningful discussions. In fact it is impossible to find a common ground. As Charles Curley it is a difference in the world view. I just hope that people grow up and learn how important it is to be cooperative. In fact just recently something similar happened to an honored professor who is famous for his contributions to argumentation theory. Someone censored an article of his by simply removing it from their scholar forum. Fortunately this someone was fired in the case. It shows how far we've gone and I am afraid the future will be even worse. I hope I am wrong. -- FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0
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| From | Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-24 22:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [SUMMARY STATEMENT] Was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian? |
| Message-ID | <DJeL8-1La-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244465 |
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local10 <local10@tutanota.com> wrote on 24/01/2022 at 00:32:10+0100: > Jan 23, 2022, 21:43 by peb@debian.org: > >> What happened is that DAM took a decision, which was challenged by some >> Developers, among with some were willing to start a General Resolution >> to overturn DAM's decision. >> >> In that heated discussion, Ian decided to collect any bad interaction >> between Norbert and any other person to disclose these before the GR >> starts and is voted on. >> >> As I already said, but you apparently decided to not read, Ian was not >> part of the decision making at any part, and, apart from the others who >> replied, two DAM members told him it wasn't fine. >> > > Sounds sketchy but whatever. Is there a list of all the horrible > things Norbert Preining said that was used to support the decision to > demote him? As a Debian and KDE user I'm trying to understand if > Debian leadership was reasonable in demoting a valuable and long-term > developer (because a project managed by unreasonable leadership is > doomed). > > Regards, Debian's leadership was no part of the decision to remove Norbert. The task (and right) to decide who is or not a member of the project is Consitutionally[0] delegated to a group of Developers named Debian Account Managers. They're the only one able to take such decision, and so they did. There is no public list of the things that motivated their decision, and you'll have to deal with that, as it doesn't seem that it will change. Regards, [0] https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution -- PEB
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| From | deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 09:30 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DIGq5-63H-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244352 |
Marco Möller wrote: > I feel that a concise statement from Debian insiders would gain a lot to > not provoke avoidable discussions and would right away defeat heat given > off obstructively. > As Thomas pointed out, there are hundreds of posts from years old > discussions which appear to be the prelude to the current situation. > Some of these public discussions have been quite controversial, partly > also questioning if community processes are always taking place > sufficiently transparent. Currently I find only a public statement from > one party. This could harm the Debian project. Some concise statement > from somebody in the Debian project with insights into the issue could > prevent Debian from bad repute by declassifying which are the positions > of the present disagreement. I am not aware of the current problem, but my personal observation is that there are more often such conflicts and I expect the number to rise in future. According my observation the problem is in lack of education in the fields of logic and rhetoric. The new generation (called milenials or gen Z or whatever) mostly brainwashed to the political left, but I do not exclude also the once to the right, are not able to have a meaningful debate. So what happens - again this is my personal opinion - they are not able to have a meaningful conversation over an issue and can not solve conflicts. Thus the only way is to break the communication. Sadly this is observable also in politics and I hope we do not end up in nuclear war. The first such experience I had was exactly the KDE project, when it released version 4. It was not possible to convince the developers that we need a working desktop and not just shiny one. So I had to abandon KDE. Since then I had this experience in many different situations especially with younger people. It is very sad! Again I see this problem mainly in the education, but it could have also relation to the family a person was raised in. All together it is sad that conflicts are not solved for one or another reason. -- FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0
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| From | Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 12:30 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DIJei-7L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244395 |
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Hi, On 2022-01-23 06:17, mick crane wrote: >> >> All together it is sad that conflicts are not solved for one or another >> reason. > > This is probably an accurate observation. > I was a little concerned about the direction of travel when that > software got removed from the repository because of variable names. > > mick You are right with this one. Whatever reason, that's a huge problem with most opensource project. That is having social problem between people put halt to good software project. When you run a business, you have some power to push people into working together but when it's a game of "take what I do or I'll go away" you are either in the position of accepting contribution of someone (and accepting his personality) or you have to push away some much needed contribution (because you believe there would be a conflict that would cause problem to your project, either active conflict or one that could arise). People take it a bit like a religious belief and it's quite hard to make them accept choice they don't like, even if it's a majority choice. You see this with the desktop war (KDE vs Gnome), the service manager (SystemD vs Init), packaging system (RPM vs DPK vs TGZ vs ...). If all this split energy was put into one project we'd had the best OS distribution ever, with no security problem, the most up to date package and much more. Because by splitting every time something goes bad, there's redundant job done on many different project that could be done only once. -- Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
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| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 12:40 +0100 |
| Subject | "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) |
| Message-ID | <DIJnX-7Ob-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244395 |
Hello,
On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 11:17:25AM +0000, mick crane wrote:
> I was a little concerned about the direction of travel when that software
> got removed from the repository because of variable names.
If you're referring to the WebOOB package, that was not why it was
removed and incorrect statements like that are not helpful.
This diff might give you an idea of some of the problems with this
software (sadly broken TLS setup so have to click through warning):
https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/merge_requests/228/diffs#85eabf8cd7ee0b4611976309bd723f6ad7b301c4_785_784
If you are referring to some other package, I'm not recalling it.
Can you remind me which one it was please?
Cheers,
Andy
--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
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| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 13:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) |
| Message-ID | <DIJHk-7Vv-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244409 |
Hi Mick, On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 11:52:12AM +0000, mick crane wrote: > On 2022-01-23 11:38, Andy Smith wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 11:17:25AM +0000, mick crane wrote: > > > I was a little concerned about the direction of travel when that > > > software > > > got removed from the repository because of variable names. > > > > If you're referring to the WebOOB package, that was not why it was > > removed and incorrect statements like that are not helpful. > > > > This diff might give you an idea of some of the problems with this > > software (sadly broken TLS setup so have to click through warning): > > > > https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/merge_requests/228/diffs#85eabf8cd7ee0b4611976309bd723f6ad7b301c4_785_784 > > That'll be it. Thanks for confirming. So would you like to retract your statement that it was removed "because of variable names"? And hopefully now that's cleared up you will feel better about Debian's direction of travel. Cheers, Andy
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| From | Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 15:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) |
| Message-ID | <DILzs-DF-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244411 |
> > > > This diff might give you an idea of some of the problems with this > > > > software (sadly broken TLS setup so have to click through warning): > > > > > > > > https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/merge_requests/228/diffs#85eabf8cd7ee0b4611976309bd723f6ad7b301c4_785_784 > If you insist on continuing with this I haven't seen the code that was > removed and no idea what it does. You will need to open the URL in a Javascript-enabled browser. Once you've done so, you can scroll down through the page to see what the proposed changes were. This shows you the "before" and "after". The "before" sections are the code which was considered offensive. > The reports at the time were that it was removed for sexist type variable > names. > Was it removed then for Anglo Saxon expletives in the comments ? No. Nobody really cares about the word "fucking". It was all about the homophobia. There's also one user-visible piece of homophobia. It's in the last section -- an actual message written to the terminal or wherever. For more details about Debian's decision, see <https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=907199#47>.
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| From | Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 21:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) |
| Message-ID | <DIRbP-3Zt-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244411 |
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On 2022-01-23 08:16, mick crane wrote: > On 2022-01-23 11:56, Andy Smith wrote: >> Hi Mick, >> >> On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 11:52:12AM +0000, mick crane wrote: >>> On 2022-01-23 11:38, Andy Smith wrote: >>> > On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 11:17:25AM +0000, mick crane wrote: >>> > > I was a little concerned about the direction of travel when that >>> > > software >>> > > got removed from the repository because of variable names. >>> > >>> > If you're referring to the WebOOB package, that was not why it was >>> > removed and incorrect statements like that are not helpful. >>> > >>> > This diff might give you an idea of some of the problems with this >>> > software (sadly broken TLS setup so have to click through warning): >>> > >>> > >>> https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/merge_requests/228/diffs#85eabf8cd7ee0b4611976309bd723f6ad7b301c4_785_784 >>> >>> >>> That'll be it. >> >> Thanks for confirming. So would you like to retract your statement >> that it was removed "because of variable names"? >> >> And hopefully now that's cleared up you will feel better about >> Debian's direction of travel. >> > > If you insist on continuing with this I haven't seen the code that was > removed and no idea what it does. > The reports at the time were that it was removed for sexist type > variable names. > Was it removed then for Anglo Saxon expletives in the comments ? I'm just reading the thread and I was able to spot the answer of your question. You can even spot it yourself... It's some line higher in the message. Let me copy it for you, so it's easy : -- This diff might give you an idea of some of the problems with -- thissoftware (sadly broken TLS setup so have to click through -- warning): -- https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/merge_requests/228/diffs#85eabf8cd7ee0b4611976309bd723f6ad7b301c4_785_784 Either one of two things : You don't speak English (where I doubt it's the case) You lack in good faith in your exchange on the channel. This make it very annoying for people to see such acting out. And doesn't help much in progressing any type of debate. I have no idea what are your plan to reach down the road but you may get much more than you expect. > > mick -- Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
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| From | Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 13:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: "Package was removed from Debian because of a variable name" myth (?) (was: Re: Why did Norbert Preining (having maintained KDE) left Debian?) |
| Message-ID | <DIJHk-7Vv-17@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244409 |
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On 2022-01-23 06:52, mick crane wrote: > On 2022-01-23 11:38, Andy Smith wrote: >> Hello, >> >> On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 11:17:25AM +0000, mick crane wrote: >>> I was a little concerned about the direction of travel when that >>> software >>> got removed from the repository because of variable names. >> >> If you're referring to the WebOOB package, that was not why it was >> removed and incorrect statements like that are not helpful. >> >> This diff might give you an idea of some of the problems with this >> software (sadly broken TLS setup so have to click through warning): >> >> >> https://gitlab.com/woob/woob/-/merge_requests/228/diffs#85eabf8cd7ee0b4611976309bd723f6ad7b301c4_785_784 >> >> >> If you are referring to some other package, I'm not recalling it. >> Can you remind me which one it was please? > > That'll be it. So it was nothing then... Sorry but this only spark fire. And if you are concerned as you say then you ain't helping much here. > > mick > -- Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-01-23 11:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <DIHYS-75t-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #244352 |
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On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 10:52:48AM +0100, deloptes wrote: [...] > Looking into the details to me it seems exactly as expected. The liberal > **** hijacked Debian [...] This is not helpful. If you value logic as much as you talk about (cf. your other post), you wouldn't need this narrative of Some Dark Conspiracy Taking Over The World (TM). Stick to the things as they are. Accept that there are other people, who think differently and refrain from characterising everyone you disagree with as ****. The people who disagree with you are not a cabal. They just... disagree with you. Convince them otherwise, using logic. This is the price we all have to pay to take part in a social endeavour, as a free software distribution is. Cheers -- t
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