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downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal?

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  downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2022-01-07 19:30 +0100
    Re: downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2022-01-07 19:40 +0100
      Re: downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2022-01-07 20:50 +0100
        Re: downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2022-01-08 04:10 +0100
          Re: downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal? John Crawley <john@bunsenlabs.org> - 2022-01-08 08:00 +0100
    Re: downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal? riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2022-01-07 20:50 +0100
      Re: downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2022-01-07 21:20 +0100
        Re: downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal? Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2022-01-08 00:20 +0100
          Re: downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2022-01-08 02:10 +0100
            Re: downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2022-01-08 04:10 +0100
            Re: downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2022-01-08 13:20 +0100
      Re: downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal? ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2022-01-07 21:40 +0100
    Re: downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2022-01-07 21:20 +0100

#243801 — downsides to replacing xfce4-terminal?

background:
There have been two things preventing me to moving to Debian -
horrible scrollbars & no right-click to paste in the terminal

xfce4-terminal v0.9.1 finally has right-click = paste
  https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-terminal/-/commit/970905924ad685827cee2b2406a3b8a6b6990187
so what are the downsides, if any, to replacing
/usr/bin/xfce4-terminal with the one I build from the xfce4-terminal
0.9.1 source tarball?

If it makes a difference
$ cat /etc/debian_version
11.2

Thanks
Lee

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#243802

On Fri, Jan 07, 2022 at 01:26:22PM -0500, Lee wrote:
> so what are the downsides, if any, to replacing
> /usr/bin/xfce4-terminal with the one I build from the xfce4-terminal
> 0.9.1 source tarball?

The biggest obvious flaw in doing this is that your custom local version
will be overwritten the next time the xfce4-terminal package is updated.

It would be better to put your custom local version in /usr/local/bin
instead.  This should be before /usr/bin in the PATH variable, so your
local version will be preferred by anything that doesn't use an explicit
path.

That said, I'm not an XFCE user, so I don't know how XFCE launches the
terminal.  If there are pieces of XFCE that use "/usr/bin/xfce4-terminal"
instead of "xfce4-terminal" to run the terminal, then that will cause an
issue.

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#243805

On 1/7/22, Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 07, 2022 at 01:26:22PM -0500, Lee wrote:
>> so what are the downsides, if any, to replacing
>> /usr/bin/xfce4-terminal with the one I build from the xfce4-terminal
>> 0.9.1 source tarball?
>
> The biggest obvious flaw in doing this is that your custom local version
> will be overwritten the next time the xfce4-terminal package is updated.

Flaw or feature.. I see it as a feature :)  I'm running Debian Stable,
so the only reason that xfce4-terminal would be updated is a security
patch -- correct?   I will notice if right-click to paste breaks in
the terminal, so that's my prompt to get an updated version &
build/install that.

I did the same with another package - it got blown away when I
upgraded and I'd forgotten about replacing the stock program with my
later version, so there a minute of WTF? before grabbing the latest &
greatest, build & install.

> It would be better to put your custom local version in /usr/local/bin
> instead.  This should be before /usr/bin in the PATH variable, so your
> local version will be preferred by anything that doesn't use an explicit
> path.

Yeah.. I thought about that and I don't know how to update whatever it
is that sets the path for the xfce desktop.  Hence my question to the
list - am I missing something?  Because done & working is a pretty
compelling argument against maybe theoretical problems in the future.

> That said, I'm not an XFCE user, so I don't know how XFCE launches the
> terminal.

me either :)

> If there are pieces of XFCE that use "/usr/bin/xfce4-terminal"
> instead of "xfce4-terminal" to run the terminal, then that will cause an
> issue.

right - another unknown.  There's a  /usr/bin/xfce4-terminal.wrapper
that starts off with
#! /usr/bin/perl -w
#
# Terminal.wrapper - Debian terminal wrapper script

which I don't know who calls or even why it exists.

Thanks
Lee

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#243816

On Fri 07 Jan 2022 at 14:46:04 (-0500), Lee wrote:
> On 1/7/22, Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 07, 2022 at 01:26:22PM -0500, Lee wrote:
> >> so what are the downsides, if any, to replacing
> >> /usr/bin/xfce4-terminal with the one I build from the xfce4-terminal
> >> 0.9.1 source tarball?
> >
> > The biggest obvious flaw in doing this is that your custom local version
> > will be overwritten the next time the xfce4-terminal package is updated.
> 
> Flaw or feature.. I see it as a feature :)  I'm running Debian Stable,
> so the only reason that xfce4-terminal would be updated is a security
> patch -- correct?   I will notice if right-click to paste breaks in
> the terminal, so that's my prompt to get an updated version &
> build/install that.

It's a misfeature when someone else is using the machine too.

OK, there isn't anybody.

Well, you don't have to break the system to get your prompt.
If you're not one to notice the arrival of a new version
(say you've added a number of packages to /usr/local/bin),
then script something so that you are. In my case, that would
be grepping /var/cache/apt/archives when cron automatically
downloads any updated packages, and sending me an email.

> I did the same with another package - it got blown away when I
> upgraded and I'd forgotten about replacing the stock program with my
> later version, so there a minute of WTF? before grabbing the latest &
> greatest, build & install.
> 
> > It would be better to put your custom local version in /usr/local/bin
> > instead.  This should be before /usr/bin in the PATH variable, so your
> > local version will be preferred by anything that doesn't use an explicit
> > path.
> 
> Yeah.. I thought about that and I don't know how to update whatever it
> is that sets the path for the xfce desktop.  Hence my question to the
> list - am I missing something?  Because done & working is a pretty
> compelling argument against maybe theoretical problems in the future.
> 
> > That said, I'm not an XFCE user, so I don't know how XFCE launches the
> > terminal.
> 
> me either :)
> 
> > If there are pieces of XFCE that use "/usr/bin/xfce4-terminal"
> > instead of "xfce4-terminal" to run the terminal, then that will cause an
> > issue.
> 
> right - another unknown.  There's a  /usr/bin/xfce4-terminal.wrapper
> that starts off with
> #! /usr/bin/perl -w
> #
> # Terminal.wrapper - Debian terminal wrapper script
> 
> which I don't know who calls or even why it exists.

You can read it: it appears to shuffle some of the arguments,
like '-display' → '--default-display', and eliminate others,
like '-fn'/'-fg'/'-bg'. Perhaps the options that the DE puts
into the call don't match what the binary expects to be given,
or it's pretending to be a different program.

At the end, it execs a bare 'xfce4-terminal' with the new
argument list, so I presume that would reconsult the $PATH.

Or you could minimise your interference with the Debian version
of the package by editing it, adding the /usr/local/bin/ to the
exec's filename.

Cheers,
David.

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#243821

On 08/01/2022 12:00, David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 07 Jan 2022 at 14:46:04 (-0500), Lee wrote:
>> right - another unknown.  There's a  /usr/bin/xfce4-terminal.wrapper
>> that starts off with
>> #! /usr/bin/perl -w
>> #
>> # Terminal.wrapper - Debian terminal wrapper script
>>
>> which I don't know who calls or even why it exists.
> 
> You can read it: it appears to shuffle some of the arguments,
> like '-display' → '--default-display', and eliminate others,
> like '-fn'/'-fg'/'-bg'. Perhaps the options that the DE puts
> into the call don't match what the binary expects to be given,
> or it's pretending to be a different program.
> 
> At the end, it execs a bare 'xfce4-terminal' with the new
> argument list, so I presume that would reconsult the $PATH.

A number of terminals have ".wrapper" scripts to make them match the specification of Debian's x-terminal-emulator. In particular -e <command line> often needs massaging to fit some terminal's own peculiarities.

~$ update-alternatives --list x-terminal-emulator
/usr/bin/lxterminal
/usr/bin/urxvt
/usr/bin/xfce4-terminal.wrapper

The wrappered version is set as the debian alternative.

-- 
John

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#243804

On 1/7/22, Lee <ler762@gmail.com> wrote:
> background:
> There have been two things preventing me to moving to Debian -

Hi, do you mean 'Debian' there?, I'm not sure what's the situation.

> horrible scrollbars & no right-click to paste in the terminal

About the scrollbars I don't know, but, for instance, lxterminal has
right-click to copy from and past in the terminal (I use it all the time),
and I guess it's pretty light in dependencies:

$ apt-cache depends lxterminal
lxterminal
  Depende: libc6
  Depende: libgdk-pixbuf-2.0-0
  Depende: libglib2.0-0
  Depende: libgtk-3-0
  Depende: libpango-1.0-0
  Depende: libvte-2.91-0
  Depende: libx11-6

You can use it anywhere (I use it over mere window managers,
IceWM, for instance, or fluxbox, openbox, etc.

> xfce4-terminal v0.9.1 finally has right-click = paste
>
> https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-terminal/-/commit/970905924ad685827cee2b2406a3b8a6b6990187
> so what are the downsides, if any, to replacing
> /usr/bin/xfce4-terminal with the one I build from the xfce4-terminal
> 0.9.1 source tarball?
>
> If it makes a difference
> $ cat /etc/debian_version
> 11.2

Maybe lxterminal would be a simpler solution for you. :)

> Thanks
> Lee

Best regards!

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#243809

On 1/7/22, riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/7/22, Lee <ler762@gmail.com> wrote:
>> background:
>> There have been two things preventing me to moving to Debian -
>
> Hi, do you mean 'Debian' there?, I'm not sure what's the situation.

The situation is that I absolutely hate the default user interface.
Scroll bars that play hide & seek, that when they are visible are tiny
wire-like things, clicking above/below the scrollbar takes you ..
somewhere & what I want is one page up or down, etc.

I found https://github.com/grassmunk/Chicago95 and that fixed most of
the UI problems, but the terminal right-click to paste requiring a
left click to actually paste was a deal-breaker.  So I was still using
windows/cygwin to ssh to my debian machine to do most everything
there.

In short, I found the UI basically unusable.

>> horrible scrollbars & no right-click to paste in the terminal
>
> About the scrollbars I don't know, but, for instance, lxterminal has
> right-click to copy from and past in the terminal (I use it all the time),
> and I guess it's pretty light in dependencies:
>
> $ apt-cache depends lxterminal
> lxterminal
>   Depende: libc6
>   Depende: libgdk-pixbuf-2.0-0
>   Depende: libglib2.0-0
>   Depende: libgtk-3-0
>   Depende: libpango-1.0-0
>   Depende: libvte-2.91-0
>   Depende: libx11-6
>
> You can use it anywhere (I use it over mere window managers,
> IceWM, for instance, or fluxbox, openbox, etc.
>
>> xfce4-terminal v0.9.1 finally has right-click = paste
>>
>> https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-terminal/-/commit/970905924ad685827cee2b2406a3b8a6b6990187
>> so what are the downsides, if any, to replacing
>> /usr/bin/xfce4-terminal with the one I build from the
>> 0.9.1 source tarball?
>>
>> If it makes a difference
>> $ cat /etc/debian_version
>> 11.2
>
> Maybe lxterminal would be a simpler solution for you. :)

After figuring out "apt search XXX" was the way to find my missing
dependencies, building a new xfce4-terminal was easy :)  And
right-click works the way I want it to now.

Thanks,
Lee

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#243812

Hi,

On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 15:17:25 -0500
Lee <ler762@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 1/7/22, riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 1/7/22, Lee <ler762@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> background:
> >> There have been two things preventing me to moving to Debian -
> >
> > Hi, do you mean 'Debian' there?, I'm not sure what's the situation.
> 
> The situation is that I absolutely hate the default user interface.
> Scroll bars that play hide & seek, that when they are visible are tiny
> wire-like things, clicking above/below the scrollbar takes you ..
> somewhere & what I want is one page up or down, etc.

I guess that this is probably no option for you, but I thought I'd
mention anyway:
the scrollbar behaviour you describe appears to be what an old-fashioned
terminal like urxvt (package rxvt-unicode) does here. The scrollbar looks
real old-fashioned (motif-style) though, in case that matters.

> 
> I found https://github.com/grassmunk/Chicago95 and that fixed most of
> the UI problems, but the terminal right-click to paste requiring a
> left click to actually paste was a deal-breaker.  So I was still using
> windows/cygwin to ssh to my debian machine to do most everything
> there.
> 
> In short, I found the UI basically unusable.

In case you have a mouse with a wheel, what's wrong with middle-button
pasting? I don't know about xfce4-terminal, but this works fine here with
urxvt and lxterminal and probably most other terminal applications as
well.

Have a nice day,

Michael

.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

You say you are lying.  But if everything you say is a lie, then you are
telling the truth.  You cannot tell the truth because everything you say
is a lie.  You lie, you tell the truth ... but you cannot, for you lie.
		-- Norman the android, "I, Mudd", stardate 4513.3

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#243814

On Sat, Jan 08, 2022 at 12:16:44AM +0100, Michael Lange wrote:
> In case you have a mouse with a wheel, what's wrong with middle-button
> pasting?

It's virtually impossible to press the wheel without accidentally turning
it, either forward or backward.  Depending on where you're clicking,
this can have undesired side effects.

Personally, I'm still using a three-button mouse with no wheel.  The
middle button pastes, just as the gods of Unix (or Xerox) intended.

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#243817

On Fri 07 Jan 2022 at 20:01:34 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 08, 2022 at 12:16:44AM +0100, Michael Lange wrote:
> > In case you have a mouse with a wheel, what's wrong with middle-button
> > pasting?
> 
> It's virtually impossible to press the wheel without accidentally turning
> it, either forward or backward.  Depending on where you're clicking,
> this can have undesired side effects.
> 
> Personally, I'm still using a three-button mouse with no wheel.  The
> middle button pastes, just as the gods of Unix (or Xerox) intended.

I have both. But the ones with wheels have middle-button emulation set
so that pressing both the left and right buttons has the same effect:

  xinput --set-prop "$Id" "libinput Middle Emulation Enabled" 1

Cheers,
David.

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#243822

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Greg Wooledge writes:

> On Sat, Jan 08, 2022 at 12:16:44AM +0100, Michael Lange wrote:
> > In case you have a mouse with a wheel, what's wrong with middle-button
> > pasting?

It is worth mentioning that the common Windows program to access Linux  
machines over SSH `putty.exe` has the right-click for paste behaviour. I  
gather it might be hard to adjust muscle memory to the middle-mouse-click if  
one switches from Putty to something else.

> It's virtually impossible to press the wheel without accidentally turning
> it, either forward or backward.  Depending on where you're clicking,
> this can have undesired side effects.

This problem is highly hardware-dependent. I know there are some mice where  
the wheel requires much force to press whereas scrolling happens immediately  
as soon as you touch it. Given that I need both, the middle mouse button as  
well as the wheel function I specifically avoid them when buying and try to  
find a mouse with the opposite behaviour: Easy to click wheel and hard to  
unexpectedly trigger scrolling.

For my uses, I have found the "MadCatz R.A.T.3" to work well (seven years of  
light mouse usage passed). It seems to be superseded by the "R.A.T.4+"  
which has a bunch of more featurs that I probably don't need :)

> Personally, I'm still using a three-button mouse with no wheel.  The
> middle button pastes, just as the gods of Unix (or Xerox) intended.

That's also a fine choice iff one can do without the wheel :)

YMMV
Linux-Fan

öö

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#243811

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256


I *am* an xfce4 user.  I use the terminal emulator most of the time.  I asked for a terminal emulator at installation, and I got lxterminal.

Works good.

The scroll bar is over on the right, where it's supposed to be.  Real thin, but it's there.  I didn't know about the right-click paste, but there's a nice one in the Edit menu.

The only trouble I've had with it is that the items in the menus have all been changed from the *nix commands.  There's a SHIFT in front of God's command set.  I just use the menus.

--
Glenn English

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#243808

On Fri 07 Jan 2022 at 13:26:22 -0500, Lee wrote:

> background:
> There have been two things preventing me to moving to Debian -
> horrible scrollbars & no right-click to paste in the terminal
> 
> xfce4-terminal v0.9.1 finally has right-click = paste
>   https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-terminal/-/commit/970905924ad685827cee2b2406a3b8a6b6990187
> so what are the downsides, if any, to replacing
> /usr/bin/xfce4-terminal with the one I build from the xfce4-terminal
> 0.9.1 source tarball?

None whatsoever. You have achieved your objective. Be happy!

-- 
Brian.

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