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  mail service fxkl47BF <fxkl47BF@protonmail.com> - 2021-10-10 11:40 +0200
    Re: mail service Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2021-10-10 14:20 +0200
      Re: mail service Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2021-10-10 15:20 +0200
        Re: mail service fxkl47BF <fxkl47BF@protonmail.com> - 2021-10-10 15:50 +0200
          Re: mail service Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-10-11 10:30 +0200
      Re: mail service fxkl47BF <fxkl47BF@protonmail.com> - 2021-10-10 15:20 +0200
      [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-10-10 16:40 +0200
        Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service fxkl47BF <fxkl47BF@protonmail.com> - 2021-10-10 18:10 +0200
          Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service fxkl47BF <fxkl47BF@protonmail.com> - 2021-10-10 19:20 +0200
            Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-10-10 20:50 +0200
              Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service fxkl47BF <fxkl47BF@protonmail.com> - 2021-10-10 21:50 +0200
                Re: remove stop un fxkl47BF <fxkl47BF@protonmail.com> - 2021-10-10 23:00 +0200
                Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-10-10 23:00 +0200
            Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-10-11 10:40 +0200
        Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-10-11 11:30 +0200
    Re: mail service Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-10-10 15:30 +0200
      Re: mail service fxkl47BF <fxkl47BF@protonmail.com> - 2021-10-10 15:50 +0200
        Re: mail service Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2021-10-10 16:50 +0200
          Re: mail service fxkl47BF <fxkl47BF@protonmail.com> - 2021-10-10 18:10 +0200
            Re: mail service deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2021-10-11 01:10 +0200
              Re: mail service 황병희 <soyeomul@doraji.xyz> - 2021-10-13 00:30 +0200

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#241075 — mail service

in a different mailing list it was implied that if a person uses protonmail they must be up to no good
i've used protonmail for about 6 months now and been satisfied
what am i missing

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#241089

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 09:32:55AM +0000, fxkl47BF wrote:
> 
> in a different mailing list it was implied that if a person uses protonmail they must be up to no good
> i've used protonmail for about 6 months now and been satisfied
> what am i missing
> 

Services like protonmail have an important role in allowing
communication from, to, and between persons who are under threat of
persecution for some reason or another.  E.g., political dissidents,
whistleblowers, journalists, religious workers in certain countries,
etc.

In general, the circumstances which would require one to use a tool like
protonmail are not commonly observed in connection with a list like
debian-user.  Since the history of the Internet is one of openness and
collaboration (especially when it comes to newsgroups, from which lists
like debian-user derive a heritage), to appear in a collaborative space
without any way for the other participants to identify you is viewed
with suspicion.  Whether that is a fair or unfair bias is debatable.

There is also ample evidence that very often, those who appear in
technical fora under a cloak of anonimity do so for the purpose of
disrupting, attacking, and so on, without risk to their real reputation.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

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#241093

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 01:09:03PM +0000, fxkl47BF wrote:
> 
> i understand and respect what you are saying
> i also reject it
> we have no way of knowing you are roberto
> following what you say it would make people feel warm and fuzzy if i called myself george washinton
> it's just judging a book by it's cover
> what kind of person does that
> 
Perception is reality.

You are right that in general there does not exist a reliable means of
verifying online identities.  However, to appear in an online forum
taking a form that appears substantially different from the bulkd of
other participants in the forum will attract attention.

To that end, depending on the threat model you are trying to address,
appearing through a provider like protonmail has a different set of
trade-offs from using a more well-known provider, not associated with
total anonimity (like Gmail, Yahoo, etc.) and a pseudonym that more
closely resembles a real name.

If your goal is absolute and total anonimity while minimizing the
likelihood that your true location/identity/etc. can be discovered, then
protonmail is likely the way to go.  However, that makes you "stick out"
in a place like debian-user.  If you wish to have a degree of anonimity
while blending into the background, then a Gmail account using a
pseudonym would probably attract far less notice.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

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#241097

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 8:16 AM, Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 01:09:03PM +0000, fxkl47BF wrote:
>
> > i understand and respect what you are saying
> >
> > i also reject it
> >
> > we have no way of knowing you are roberto
> >
> > following what you say it would make people feel warm and fuzzy if i called myself george washinton
> >
> > it's just judging a book by it's cover
> >
> > what kind of person does that
>
> Perception is reality.
>
> You are right that in general there does not exist a reliable means of
>
> verifying online identities. However, to appear in an online forum
>
> taking a form that appears substantially different from the bulkd of
>
> other participants in the forum will attract attention.
>
> To that end, depending on the threat model you are trying to address,
>
> appearing through a provider like protonmail has a different set of
>
> trade-offs from using a more well-known provider, not associated with
>
> total anonimity (like Gmail, Yahoo, etc.) and a pseudonym that more
>
> closely resembles a real name.
>
> If your goal is absolute and total anonimity while minimizing the
>
> likelihood that your true location/identity/etc. can be discovered, then
>
> protonmail is likely the way to go. However, that makes you "stick out"
>
> in a place like debian-user. If you wish to have a degree of anonimity
>
> while blending into the background, then a Gmail account using a
>
> pseudonym would probably attract far less notice.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Roberto
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Roberto C. Sánchez

once again i totally agree and disagree
gmail, yahoo, gmx, etc. state that they scan mail going through their service
today personal information is gold
and for anonymity, the safest place to hide a tree is in a forest
years ago i saw a show where the character said

spies make the best neighbors
they keep their lawns cut and always take in the trash cans
they do everything the perfect average person should do

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#241155

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Du, 10 oct 21, 13:41:33, fxkl47BF wrote:
> 
> once again i totally agree and disagree
> gmail, yahoo, gmx, etc. state that they scan mail going through their service

They are free to scan all my postings to a publicly archived list, same 
as the rest of the internet ;)

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#241094

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 7:17 AM, Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 09:32:55AM +0000, fxkl47BF wrote:
>
> > in a different mailing list it was implied that if a person uses protonmail they must be up to no good
> >
> > i've used protonmail for about 6 months now and been satisfied
> >
> > what am i missing
>
> Services like protonmail have an important role in allowing
>
> communication from, to, and between persons who are under threat of
>
> persecution for some reason or another. E.g., political dissidents,
>
> whistleblowers, journalists, religious workers in certain countries,
>
> etc.
>
> In general, the circumstances which would require one to use a tool like
>
> protonmail are not commonly observed in connection with a list like
>
> debian-user. Since the history of the Internet is one of openness and
>
> collaboration (especially when it comes to newsgroups, from which lists
>
> like debian-user derive a heritage), to appear in a collaborative space
>
> without any way for the other participants to identify you is viewed
>
> with suspicion. Whether that is a fair or unfair bias is debatable.
>
> There is also ample evidence that very often, those who appear in
>
> technical fora under a cloak of anonimity do so for the purpose of
>
> disrupting, attacking, and so on, without risk to their real reputation.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Roberto
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Roberto C. Sánchez

i understand and respect what you are saying
i also reject it
we have no way of knowing you are roberto
following what you say it would make people feel warm and fuzzy if i called myself george washinton
it's just judging a book by it's cover
what kind of person does that

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#241099 — [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

> In general, the circumstances which would require one to use a tool like
> protonmail are not commonly observed in connection with a list like
> debian-user.

While protonmail might be used for such situations, in my experience
most protonmail users I've seen are just people that are sufficiently
technically aware to know that they should stay away from gmail and
friends and look for a quality email provider (posteo being another
popular provider in that space).

So, my own bias would rather tend to expect good behavior (good
questions and good answers) from participants posting from
protonmail ;-)


        Stefan

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#241105 — Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 9:31 AM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:

> > In general, the circumstances which would require one to use a tool like
> >
> > protonmail are not commonly observed in connection with a list like
> >
> > debian-user.
>
> While protonmail might be used for such situations, in my experience
>
> most protonmail users I've seen are just people that are sufficiently
>
> technically aware to know that they should stay away from gmail and
>
> friends and look for a quality email provider (posteo being another
>
> popular provider in that space).
>
> So, my own bias would rather tend to expect good behavior (good
>
> questions and good answers) from participants posting from
>
> protonmail ;-)
>
> Stefan

well put
you're a much better wordsmith than i

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#241112 — Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

just one more thing

posteo was mentioned as an alternative
i have a posteo account i will drop in a few months
their spam policy is to bounce it back to the sender
the account own has no say

i also have a mailfence account i will drop
a while back i stopped getting mail from my bank
i investigated and found the bank mail was generating a false positive virus
i informed mailfence and they agreed it was probably the cause of my trouble
but they didn't bother to fix it
several months later they started passing mail from my bank

some times you have to kiss a lot of frogs

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#241123 — Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

On Sun 10 Oct 2021 at 17:18:13 +0000, fxkl47BF wrote:

> just one more thing
> 
> posteo was mentioned as an alternative
> i have a posteo account i will drop in a few months
> their spam policy is to bounce it back to the sender
> the account own has no say

You have a link to a statement of this policy?

-- 
Brian.

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#241127 — Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 1:46 PM, Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sun 10 Oct 2021 at 17:18:13 +0000, fxkl47BF wrote:
>
> > just one more thing
> >
> > posteo was mentioned as an alternative
> >
> > i have a posteo account i will drop in a few months
> >
> > their spam policy is to bounce it back to the sender
> >
> > the account own has no say
>
> You have a link to a statement of this policy?
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Brian.

i do not
only a personal email from support@posteo.de

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#241131 — Re: remove stop un

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 2:49 PM, J B Martin <bryant@ab-domain.com> wrote:

> On 10/10/2021 3:46 PM, fxkl47BF wrote:
>
> > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> >
> > On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 1:46 PM, Brian ad44@cityscape.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun 10 Oct 2021 at 17:18:13 +0000, fxkl47BF wrote:
> > >
> > > > just one more thing
> > > >
> > > > posteo was mentioned as an alternative
> > > >
> > > > i have a posteo account i will drop in a few months
> > > >
> > > > their spam policy is to bounce it back to the sender
> > > >
> > > > the account own has no say
> > > >
> > > > You have a link to a statement of this policy?
> > >
> > > Brian.
> > >
> > > i do not
> > >
> > > only a personal email from support@posteo.de
>
> Joseph Bryant Martin
>
> USA 804 223-0325
>
> Info Voice
>
> 804 334-4309


i don't know if and/or how to respond to this

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#241132 — Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

On Sun 10 Oct 2021 at 19:46:39 +0000, fxkl47BF wrote:

[Mangled quoted text deleted]

> > You have a link to a statement of this policy?
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Brian.
> 
> i do not
> only a personal email from support@posteo.de

I tend to take such mails from an ISP's front-line support with a pinch
of salt and not as gospel.

-- 
Brian.

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#241157 — Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Du, 10 oct 21, 17:18:13, fxkl47BF wrote:
> just one more thing
> 
> posteo was mentioned as an alternative
> i have a posteo account i will drop in a few months
> their spam policy is to bounce it back to the sender
> the account own has no say
> 
> i also have a mailfence account i will drop
> a while back i stopped getting mail from my bank
> i investigated and found the bank mail was generating a false positive virus
> i informed mailfence and they agreed it was probably the cause of my trouble
> but they didn't bother to fix it
> several months later they started passing mail from my bank

With ProtonMail I've only had trouble receiving automatic stuff like 
notifications[1].

Those are often similar enough to spam to be difficult to distinguish 
from actual spam.

For one particular (in)famous social network I solved it by activating 
encrypted notifications[2].

[1] That I know of, of course. ;)
[2] Was positively surprised to learn they offer this.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#241162 — Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Du, 10 oct 21, 10:31:58, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > In general, the circumstances which would require one to use a tool like
> > protonmail are not commonly observed in connection with a list like
> > debian-user.
> 
> While protonmail might be used for such situations, in my experience
> most protonmail users I've seen are just people that are sufficiently
> technically aware to know that they should stay away from gmail and
> friends and look for a quality email provider (posteo being another
> popular provider in that space).
> 
> So, my own bias would rather tend to expect good behavior (good
> questions and good answers) from participants posting from
> protonmail ;-)

To add to this, usually the contents of the message are much more 
revealing, e.g. use of punctuation and capitalisation ;)

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#241095

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 09:32:55AM +0000, fxkl47BF wrote:
> 
> in a different mailing list it was implied that if a person uses protonmail they must be up to no good
> i've used protonmail for about 6 months now and been satisfied
> what am i missing

I suspect I know which mailing list you're talking about.  If I'm right,
the abuse to which you're referring is being caused by one person, who
has switched email addresses and identities repeatedly over the course
of a year.  Their latest attempt at hiding their identity has been to use
a series of different protonmail addresses.

For those of us on the receiving end of that person's abuse, the fact that
any message from a new person has protonmail in its message ID is just
*one* indicator that the message may be from the abuser.  We have to
look at other things too, like the actual content of the message.

As long as you're posting in good faith, nobody (as far as I know) is
going to reject your messages *only* because of your email provider.

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#241096

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 8:23 AM, Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 09:32:55AM +0000, fxkl47BF wrote:
>
> > in a different mailing list it was implied that if a person uses protonmail they must be up to no good
> >
> > i've used protonmail for about 6 months now and been satisfied
> >
> > what am i missing
>
> I suspect I know which mailing list you're talking about. If I'm right,
>
> the abuse to which you're referring is being caused by one person, who
>
> has switched email addresses and identities repeatedly over the course
>
> of a year. Their latest attempt at hiding their identity has been to use
>
> a series of different protonmail addresses.
>
> For those of us on the receiving end of that person's abuse, the fact that
>
> any message from a new person has protonmail in its message ID is just
>
> one indicator that the message may be from the abuser. We have to
>
> look at other things too, like the actual content of the message.
>
> As long as you're posting in good faith, nobody (as far as I know) is
>
> going to reject your messages only because of your email provider.

that is what a person would hope
but on another mailing list i used this same address
i was banned
the admin apologized and explained later my address looked suspicious

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#241100

	Hi.

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 01:44:50PM +0000, fxkl47BF wrote:
> but on another mailing list i used this same address
> i was banned
> the admin apologized and explained later my address looked suspicious

Here they do not ban users based on e-mail domain alone.
You have to do something worthy of the ban first :)

Although you could've chosen more pronouceable alias. I mean, your
current one looks like you've swapped your username and password. No
offence meant, just in case.

Reco

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#241104

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 9:30 AM, Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote:

>     Hi.
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 01:44:50PM +0000, fxkl47BF wrote:
>
> > but on another mailing list i used this same address
> >
> > i was banned
> >
> > the admin apologized and explained later my address looked suspicious
>
> Here they do not ban users based on e-mail domain alone.
>
> You have to do something worthy of the ban first :)
>
> Although you could've chosen more pronouceable alias. I mean, your
>
> current one looks like you've swapped your username and password. No
>
> offence meant, just in case.
>
> Reco

no offense taken
i use expect_mkpasswd to generate passwords
decades ago i got tired of trying to come up with user names
i just use expect_mkpasswd to make a short unique name
today everyone is trying to glean all of the personal info they can
i try not give out any more than is necessary

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#241143

fxkl47BF wrote:

> no offense taken
> i use expect_mkpasswd to generate passwords
> decades ago i got tired of trying to come up with user names
> i just use expect_mkpasswd to make a short unique name
> today everyone is trying to glean all of the personal info they can
> i try not give out any more than is necessary

but we are still human and at least I prefer seeing a human like name and
not some scribles, but ofcourse it is your choice how you appear in the
public.

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

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