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Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer

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  Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-06-25 15:50 +0200
    Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-06-25 16:00 +0200
      Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-06-25 16:50 +0200
    Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-06-25 23:10 +0200
      Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-06-26 11:50 +0200
        Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-06-26 19:40 +0200
          Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-06-26 20:40 +0200
            Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-06-30 15:50 +0200
              Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-06-30 20:50 +0200
                Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-07-01 15:10 +0200
                  Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-01 17:30 +0200
                    Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-02 19:50 +0200
                  Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-07-01 18:50 +0200
                    Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-01 22:10 +0200
                      Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-07-01 22:40 +0200
                        Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-02 00:00 +0200
                          Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-07-02 12:00 +0200
                            Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-02 12:20 +0200
                              Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-02 21:10 +0200
                    Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-07-01 22:20 +0200
              Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-01 00:20 +0200
    Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-06-27 09:40 +0200
      Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-06-27 10:40 +0200
      Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Peter Ehlert <pb21a@sdi-baja.com> - 2021-06-27 16:40 +0200
        Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-06-27 16:40 +0200
          Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-06-27 17:40 +0200
          Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Peter Ehlert <pb21a@sdi-baja.com> - 2021-06-27 17:40 +0200
            Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-06-27 19:40 +0200
            X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer] "Rick Thomas" <rick.thomas@pobox.com> - 2021-06-29 04:40 +0200
              Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-29 04:50 +0200
                Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-06-29 05:20 +0200
                  Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-29 11:00 +0200
                    Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-06-30 10:30 +0200
                Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-06-29 11:50 +0200
                  Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-29 18:20 +0200
                    Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-06-29 18:40 +0200
                      Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-06-29 19:30 +0200
                        Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-29 20:10 +0200
                          Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-06-29 20:50 +0200
                            Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-06-29 21:00 +0200
                              Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer] Lucas Castro <lucas@gnuabordo.com.br> - 2021-06-29 21:10 +0200
                            Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-29 22:50 +0200
                              Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-06-29 23:00 +0200
                                Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-29 23:10 +0200
                                  Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-06-30 10:40 +0200
                                    Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-30 11:30 +0200
                                      Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-06-30 12:00 +0200
                                        Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-07-01 01:40 +0200
                                      Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-06-30 12:00 +0200
                                        Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-30 15:20 +0200
                                          Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-06-30 15:40 +0200
                                          Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-06-30 16:40 +0200
                                      Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-06-30 12:00 +0200
                            Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-29 22:50 +0200
                            Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-06-30 12:00 +0200
                              Mailing list behaviour, words and that [was: Re: X server ...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-06-30 14:50 +0200
                                Re: Mailing list behaviour, words and that [was: Re: X server ...] Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2021-06-30 15:00 +0200
                                  Re: Mailing list behaviour, words and that [was: Re: X server ...] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-30 15:40 +0200
                                Re: Mailing list behaviour, words and that [was: Re: X server ...] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-06-30 20:20 +0200
                                Re: Mailing list behaviour, words and that [was: Re: X server ...] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-06-30 20:50 +0200
                              Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-30 15:40 +0200
                                Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-06-30 16:40 +0200
                                  Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-06-30 17:10 +0200
                                    Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-06-30 17:40 +0200
                                    Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-30 17:50 +0200
                                      Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-06-30 18:10 +0200
                                        Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-30 18:40 +0200
                                          Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-06-30 20:30 +0200
                                            Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-06-30 21:30 +0200
                                            Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-01 07:20 +0200
                                              Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-07-01 11:30 +0200
                                      Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] "Thompson, Brian" <brian@hashvault.io> - 2021-06-30 18:10 +0200
                                        Re: Artifical Intellignce ( was : X something) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-06-30 19:00 +0200
                                          Re: Artifical Intellignce ( was : X something) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-06-30 19:20 +0200
                                        [OT, maybe] Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-06-30 22:20 +0200
                                          Re: [OT, maybe] Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-06-30 22:30 +0200
                                        Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-07-01 02:00 +0200
                                      Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-07-01 02:00 +0200
                                        Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-01 06:40 +0200
                                          Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] - continue Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-01 07:00 +0200
                                Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-06-30 22:10 +0200
                              Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-06-30 20:00 +0200
                                Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special  purpose Debian installer] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-07-01 01:10 +0200

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#236660 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

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Hi,

On 2021-06-30 5:59 a.m., tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 02:43:28PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> DO NOT USE xhost + WITH ssh -X OR ssh -Y
>>
>> That was the fucking point.
> 
> Calm down. I understand security is close to your heart,
> but there's no need to be so vitriolic and borderline
> insulting about it.
> 
> There are nicer ways to drive the point home that, nowadays,
> "xhost +" isn't a good idea, generally.
> 
I was the stupid and dumb person who started talking about "the classic
way" of authentication using X11.

I am so sorry to have had the wrong idea of telling someone that
learning the "classic way" of authentication with X11 (or the old way)
would give them some knowledge of the inner working, how the client
communicate with the server and how to setup the DISPLAY variable.

My idea (pretty dumb) was that by learning this way, that person would
have the knowledge to understand if later on a there's a problem with
using SSH -X.

Another user added that "xhost +x" can be used if there's a
authentication problem. As one of the "things to try".

But as we didn't think like the chef, we we're so wrong.

So lets all think the same.

And if the person ever has problem using SSH -X then she'll come over
here and ask question, this way the chef and his follower will be able
to feel good that they helped someone.

There's a old saying that state :
"Give someone a fish, feed him for the day, teach him how to fish, feed
him for life".

That must be something that doesn't apply anymore. Everyone who doesn't
think like This Dear God is so much far from the only truth in the world
of computing science.
Make me thing about the day I was told that those people who use Gnome
(as I was told, if you use Gnome then all your problem are caused by
this cursed desktop manager, real user don't use desktop environment).
Another stupidity that goes with, whoever has a idea that is different
then mine must be bad. After all, there must be a bunch of stupid person
wasting their time packaging KDE and Gnome, even making Live image !

I wonder why does Debian offer many different Live image... Can be
everything except to leave the choice to the user...

You ask a question relating to the use of Grub and it ends-up we tell
you that "you have the wrong way of doing partition. It is bad to have
them separated for home, tmp, var, usr/local, etc. Because you do it the
old way". Sorry, I didn't ask to have a comment of my partition table
and I only shared it because I was asked to. And I didn't ask help for
this. Only on how to install Grub as a command line after debootstrap
and if I need to put my bios boot drive as a option or prepare it somehow.

To be open minded doesn't mean that you have to crack your head open. So
people seem to forget this one.

It's a easy question why people prefer Ubuntu over Debian. Not for the
quality of the software but the quality of the community. Not people who
only think about what they consider to be the "best way to do those
things" without regard to the user themselves and their need. No, they
have calculated, analyzed and this is the way.

But their only experience is not much in business themselves but only
what relate to core computer science. But in life, people don't care
much if you save them a milliseconds if your solution is a pain to use.

> Cheers
>  - t
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#236665 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

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On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 09:33:37AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> Hi,

[...]

> I was the stupid and dumb person who started talking about "the classic
> way" of authentication using X11.

Uh, whatever. I don't think you're stupid. I don't think *you* think
you're stupid. So I'm ignoring that :)

> I am so sorry to have had the wrong idea of telling someone that
> learning the "classic way" of authentication with X11 [...]

> Another user added that "xhost +x" can be used if there's a
> authentication problem. As one of the "things to try".

FWIW, I don't think it's "wrong". But if people use it, they should
understand the implications. The X protocol isn't the most secure
out there.

BTW: the problematic thing is called "xhost +", not "xhost +x", which
won't work...

  tomas@trotzki:~$ xhost + x
  xhost:  bad hostname "x"

...unless there's a host in your network named "x" :-)

Further, I don't think things are as bleak as Greg put them, since
by default, X doesn't listen on the network these days, but only
on a local Unix socket anyway. The attacker would have to have
access to the local machine. Security-wise there's bigger fish to
fry out there (automount, anyone?).

So I don't agree 100% with Greg, and I agree even less with the
way he put it (pointing out the issues might be more productive
than shouting), but he /has/ a point.

Cheers
 - t

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#236668 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 04:35:13PM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> BTW: the problematic thing is called "xhost +", not "xhost +x", which
> won't work...
> 
>   tomas@trotzki:~$ xhost + x
>   xhost:  bad hostname "x"
> 
> ...unless there's a host in your network named "x" :-)

xhost was mentioned by at least two different people, and they may not
be on the same page as each other.

One person mentioned "xhost +" (althogh I think they actually typoed
it as "xhost+"), which is VERY bad indeed, and should never be used
outside of an isolated private network.

Another person mentioned "xhost +x" in which I took the final x to be
a placeholder for a local network hostname.  Doing this is less bad
than "xhost +", because now you're only susceptible to keylogger attacks
and so forth from the one host that you trusted, rather than from EVERY
host.

But still, this is not how remote X clients should be handled in this
century.

> Further, I don't think things are as bleak as Greg put them, since
> by default, X doesn't listen on the network these days

I mentioned this earlier.  I think it got drowned out.

My concern is that apparently there are people on this mailing list who
are actively advocating that people should enable X's TCP listening
and then enable xhost authorization, either globally or per-host.  And
these people are not giving adequate warnings about the security
ramifications of their suggestions.  Let alone the difficulty.


To summarize, there are basically two sane approaches to remote X clients:

1) Run a Display Manager with XDMCP on the remote host, and allow users
   to connect to that from their workstations.  The workstation will run
   an X server only; the rest of the session (all X clients including
   window manager) runs on the remote host.

2) Run a local X session including window manager on each workstation, but
   use ssh -X to the remote host to run specific X client programs.

The first approach is a traditional "thin client" setup, and was common
in some universities, back in the 1980s and 1990s.  Full workstations
capable of running both the X server *and* the client applications
were expensive, so some organizations saved money by purchasing cheaper
machines that would run only the X server.

There is also a centralization benefit here, with all of the X clients
running on a single host, that some administrators might have found
useful.  On the other hand, you had all your eggs in one basket.

The second approach is more common now, with even the cheapest desktop
machines being more than capable of handling both the X server and
the X client applications.  Having the window manager and other highly
latency-susceptible programs running on the local machine, rather than
over the network, gives a greatly improved experience for the user.
This same consideration applies to web browsers, video players, etc.

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#236671 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

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On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 11:07:24AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 04:35:13PM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > BTW: the problematic thing is called "xhost +", not "xhost +x", which
> > won't work...
> > 
> >   tomas@trotzki:~$ xhost + x
> >   xhost:  bad hostname "x"
> > 
> > ...unless there's a host in your network named "x" :-)

[...]

> Another person mentioned "xhost +x" in which I took the final x to be
> a placeholder for a local network hostname [...]

This interpretation makes a lot of sense, thanks.

[rest deleted]

Thanks for the detailed description.

Cheers
 - t

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#236672 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

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Hi,
> 
> To summarize, there are basically two sane approaches to remote X clients:
> 
"Two sane approach" ?

Okay, there's only two approach YOU believe in.
That's it.

There's at least a dozen of way to install a X11 network system.

You don't have any a power to judge other than your own self.
You may consider something to be inappropriate but it doesn't make this
solution unacceptable, except in your own mind.

You seem to use a knife and cut every thing with a straight line, one
side what's positive, good, acceptable, allowable, usable, possible.

And on the other side...
Everything else, what's evil, dangerous, open to furry, waiting for a
disaster, not for use in a nuclear power plant, worst than putting some
plutonium with your morning eggs.

Sorry, but that's all false.
What you state here only applies to the case of situation you have put
thru your mind.

But there's other people (and situation) that may exist, that you don't
even know. And that's... okay too ! And you know what ? Those solution
are happy and good for those person. And they are allowed to use them...

Let me tell you something very crazy !

One day I was reading on a forum that a guy changed the shutter speed of
his soviet camera before arming. That's dangerous because it somewhat
but the gears in a "unknown state".

But there's a way to fix it... You play with the rewind lever and
magic.. it gets back on track. But you may also wreck your camera if you
do it the wrong way.

You know what I did ?
I took my camera and did exactly like the guy did and screwed my on
purpose !

And after "fixing" it three time, I told him the solution worked !
Could have ended up putting that camera to be used a paper weight.

Now here's what will amaze you...
You can do the same with a computer.
Take risk...
Make your computer unusable...
Type "alias cd=rm -rf"
Open all the ports and get hacked.
Open all the ports and not get hacked.
Take risk and loose not much because you don't care...
Choose unsafe configuration.
Even the most crazy thing ever, erase MS Windows and install Debian
Buster with X11 !

Sincerely,

Open minded doesn't mean you have to crack your head open and have brain
juice sprouting over the place...

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#236673 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: 
> Now here's what will amaze you...
> You can do the same with a computer.
> Take risk...
> Make your computer unusable...
> Type "alias cd=rm -rf"
> Open all the ports and get hacked.
> Open all the ports and not get hacked.
> Take risk and loose not much because you don't care...
> Choose unsafe configuration.


I endorse this as best practice for my competitors.

For people that I consider part of my community, I feel a higher
standard of care is in order.

-dsr-

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#236675 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

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Hi,

On 2021-06-30 11:59 a.m., Dan Ritter wrote:
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: 
>> Now here's what will amaze you...
>> You can do the same with a computer.
>> Take risk...
>> Make your computer unusable...
>> Type "alias cd=rm -rf"
>> Open all the ports and get hacked.
>> Open all the ports and not get hacked.
>> Take risk and loose not much because you don't care...
>> Choose unsafe configuration.
> 
> 
> I endorse this as best practice for my competitors.
> 
> For people that I consider part of my community, I feel a higher
> standard of care is in order.
> 
Haven't you ever tried to think of computing as a "no risk involved"
possibility ?

If I accept that I may risk rendering the system unusable and requiring
a re-install BUT I can assume this risk and learn from this ?

Why should you never learned something because it just went bad ?

I feel like there's some quasi religious mentality that :
1. Must always obey to the latest standard / RFC / way of doing things.
2. If we can win a millisecond then everything is worth getting this
poor millisecond.
3. Unix is SERIOUS stuff, even if you use it only for web surfing, if
you have the technical knowledge then you must ensure it's safe.
4. It's optimized.
5. It's up to date.
6. Follow the "guidelines".
7. You collect metrics and review them to prevent anything bad from
arriving.
8. You only used limited sudo possibility (in case someone hack into
your box).
9. You must care about your own data (which you don't really care,
except some family photo that you backup on Google Drive) like it if was
client user's data.
10. Use error correction ram.
11. Have a kernel optimized with the good type of scheduling for your work.
12. Leave the less port possible open (sacred).
...

Why can't it be also fun ?

Maybe more user would have some interest in Debian and stop praying for
Ubuntu. And this, I'd love for it to happens. Because I don't understand
why a derivative or fork could be better than the sweet original.

Let's make Debian happy and fun ?
Doesn't mean we can't have some serious stuff roasting underneath !
> -dsr-
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#236680 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: 
> Hi,
> 
> > For people that I consider part of my community, I feel a higher
> > standard of care is in order.
> > 
> Haven't you ever tried to think of computing as a "no risk involved"
> possibility ?
> 
> If I accept that I may risk rendering the system unusable and requiring
> a re-install BUT I can assume this risk and learn from this ?

If I'm asking for help, I don't want to hear "try this, it's
dangerous" unless all other possibilities have been exhausted.

If you want to start a thread "dangerous things to do to risk
your data", that's fine. 


> I feel like there's some quasi religious mentality that :
> 1. Must always obey to the latest standard / RFC / way of doing things.

RFC literally means "request for comment". Only the
peer-reviewed ones listed as Standards Track can claim to be
standards; most RFCs are informational.

This is because the grad student taking notes at meetings wasn't
sure of how accurate the notes were, so they stuck "Request For
Comment" at the top of the paper when distributing it.


> 2. If we can win a millisecond then everything is worth getting this
> poor millisecond.

Depends. If you can save a millisecond on something that
happens a million times a day, that's 15 minutes of your day
back. If it takes you an hour to save a millisecond on something
that only happens once a day, it's probably not worth it.

> 3. Unix is SERIOUS stuff, even if you use it only for web surfing, if
> you have the technical knowledge then you must ensure it's safe.

There are a bunch of loonies out there who don't like other
people based on gender, sex, skin color, religion, geography, or
merely the fact that their computer is unsecured.

If you depend on your computer to be safe, it's worth taking
these things seriously.

If you have a throwaway computer for fun, go have fun with it.

> 5. It's up to date.

Makes it easier to be secure, often offers features or fixes
that people like.

> 6. Follow the "guidelines".

There's not just one set. But if you ask for help, you should
get good advice. And if lots of people ask for the same sort of
help, writing down that good advice is efficient.

> 7. You collect metrics and review them to prevent anything bad from
> arriving.

Metrics don't prevent bad things, they show you bad things in
progress or the past.

> 8. You only used limited sudo possibility (in case someone hack into
> your box).

Good advice.

> 9. You must care about your own data (which you don't really care,
> except some family photo that you backup on Google Drive) like it if was
> client user's data.

I can't tell you how to value your data. Most people are pretty
upset when they lose things that they thought were safe.

> 10. Use error correction ram.

Hardly ever worth while in a personal computer context. Often
worthwhile in a business context.

> 11. Have a kernel optimized with the good type of scheduling for your work.

Hardly ever has to be changed; if you need it, it should be
obvious.


> 12. Leave the less port possible open (sacred).

If you mean "don't leave ports open that you didn't mean to
leave open", certainly. I've lived in places where it was pretty
safe to leave your front door unlocked. I don't live in one now.
If you're connected to the Internet, you don't.


> Why can't it be also fun ?

It is. Don't make mean jokes, that's not fun for anyone
except you.

-dsr-

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#236683 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

On Wed 30 Jun 2021 at 14:27:16 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:

[...]
 
> There are a bunch of loonies...

A very nineteenth centrury word. This bunch of people have views that
are due to some mental illness? Maybe a touch of empathy would not go
unnoticed.

[...]

-- 
Brian.

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#236699 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

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Hi,
> If I'm asking for help, I don't want to hear "try this, it's
> dangerous" unless all other possibilities have been exhausted.
> 
> If you want to start a thread "dangerous things to do to risk
> your data", that's fine. 

Would you be stuck in something like YOU = ALL OTHER BEING ?
Can you let other evaluate their own risk ? You know what ? If I feel
like doing parachute, I can do so.

And if I feel like going in the forest without having pepper spray for
bear, I also can.

> 
> 
>> I feel like there's some quasi religious mentality that :
>> 1. Must always obey to the latest standard / RFC / way of doing things.
> 
> RFC literally means "request for comment". Only the
> peer-reviewed ones listed as Standards Track can claim to be
> standards; most RFCs are informational.
> 
> This is because the grad student taking notes at meetings wasn't
> sure of how accurate the notes were, so they stuck "Request For
> Comment" at the top of the paper when distributing it.
> 
Great but other than showing me "You know stuff", it's irrelevant.

My message had nothing to do with what you say here.

I was putting simply a list of word that relate to "norms, standard,
procedure". The need to show that I didn't know the whole story behind
RFC makes me believe that you have a need to express that you are part
of "the ones who know".

But this apply only to the sandbox of your limited domain of knowledge
and we all have our own.

Read it back if you feel.

> 
>> 2. If we can win a millisecond then everything is worth getting this
>> poor millisecond.
> 
> Depends. If you can save a millisecond on something that
> happens a million times a day, that's 15 minutes of your day
> back. If it takes you an hour to save a millisecond on something
> that only happens once a day, it's probably not worth it.
> 
And even if I could save the millisecond every second.
Sure on a pure math based calculation you save much.

But nothing to force you.

Not everyone's life is based and revolve around what computer does.

Many people only care about the result, and have no need to save one
minute per day. Because they are happy this way.

Leave them alone !

>> 3. Unix is SERIOUS stuff, even if you use it only for web surfing, if
>> you have the technical knowledge then you must ensure it's safe.
> 
> There are a bunch of loonies out there who don't like other
> people based on gender, sex, skin color, religion, geography, or
> merely the fact that their computer is unsecured.
> 

Thanks, I didn't know the word loonies applied to yourself. Now I get a
better understanding.

Maybe you shall read back before sending email. Because I have a strong
proof based opinion that you are getting pretty angry against people
with unsecured computer.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#236702 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: 
> > 
> > There are a bunch of loonies out there who don't like other
> > people based on gender, sex, skin color, religion, geography, or
> > merely the fact that their computer is unsecured.
> > 
> 
> Thanks, I didn't know the word loonies applied to yourself. Now I get a
> better understanding.
> 
> Maybe you shall read back before sending email. Because I have a strong
> proof based opinion that you are getting pretty angry against people
> with unsecured computer.

I'm not angry at you, Polyna-Maude.

But it's clear that arguing with you will not help you, so I will stop.

-dsr-

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#236674 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

On 30 Jun 2021, at 10:44, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> Hi,
>>
>> To summarize, there are basically two sane approaches to remote X 
>> clients:
>>
> "Two sane approach" ?
>
> Okay, there's only two approach YOU believe in.
> That's it.
>
> There's at least a dozen of way to install a X11 network system.
>
> You don't have any a power to judge other than your own self.
> You may consider something to be inappropriate but it doesn't make 
> this
> solution unacceptable, except in your own mind.
>
> You seem to use a knife and cut every thing with a straight line, one
> side what's positive, good, acceptable, allowable, usable, possible.
>
> And on the other side...
> Everything else, what's evil, dangerous, open to furry, waiting for a
> disaster, not for use in a nuclear power plant, worst than putting 
> some
> plutonium with your morning eggs.
>
> Sorry, but that's all false.
> What you state here only applies to the case of situation you have put
> thru your mind.
>
> But there's other people (and situation) that may exist, that you 
> don't
> even know. And that's... okay too ! And you know what ? Those solution
> are happy and good for those person. And they are allowed to use 
> them...
>
> Let me tell you something very crazy !
>
> One day I was reading on a forum that a guy changed the shutter speed 
> of
> his soviet camera before arming. That's dangerous because it somewhat
> but the gears in a "unknown state".
>
> But there's a way to fix it... You play with the rewind lever and
> magic.. it gets back on track. But you may also wreck your camera if 
> you
> do it the wrong way.
>
> You know what I did ?
> I took my camera and did exactly like the guy did and screwed my on
> purpose !
>
> And after "fixing" it three time, I told him the solution worked !
> Could have ended up putting that camera to be used a paper weight.
>
> Now here's what will amaze you...
> You can do the same with a computer.
> Take risk...
> Make your computer unusable...
> Type "alias cd=rm -rf"
> Open all the ports and get hacked.
> Open all the ports and not get hacked.
> Take risk and loose not much because you don't care...
> Choose unsafe configuration.
> Even the most crazy thing ever, erase MS Windows and install Debian
> Buster with X11 !
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Open minded doesn't mean you have to crack your head open and have 
> brain
> juice sprouting over the place...
>
> -- 
> Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
> -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

There comes a point when trying to convince someone of something that 
you
believe in just isn't worth it.  I don't know if this is usually the 
case about
the debian-user mailing list, but it's recently become the equivalent of 
spam.

Is this mailing list usually used for philosophical debates, persuasion, 
and
primitive name-calling?  Genuinely curious so that I can unsub if it is.

Best regards,

Brian T

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#236676 — Re: Artifical Intellignce ( was : X something)

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Hi,

> Is this mailing list usually used for philosophical debates, persuasion,
> and
> primitive name-calling?  Genuinely curious so that I can unsub if it is.
> 
I believe this mailing list is a unmoderated mailing list regarding
subject that goes around user situation on Debian.

Exact : debian-user: Community assistance and support for Debian users.

https://lists.debian.org/users.html

There may sometime arise situation where subject diverge, but this is
mostly what the list is centered around.

You can get a pretty good idea of the subject by looking thru the web
interface.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/06/threads.html

The only number I heard about was the number of 3 000 users. So if you
make your opinion upon some isolated situation then you'll loose the
benefits of some thousands of user that will read you and could also
help you too.

Those are all things you know and I won't get into philosophical
discussion about the subject.

But it's great to remember that the only reason computer exist are to
help human solve human problem and unless we attained the level of
artificial consciousness, computer are still under our orders and not
the other way around.

So at time, human science may intrude itself into technological debate,
for the better (and the worst). Always reminding us that there's a human
based programmer who made a programming error because he was tired and
this make us, as human, unhappy and even loose lots of cash !

Sincerely,

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#236677 — Re: Artifical Intellignce ( was : X something)

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On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 12:57:10PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

[...]

> The only number I heard about was the number of 3 000 users [...]

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/

at the page's bottom.

Cheers
 - t

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#236685 — [OT, maybe]

On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:02:43 -0500
"Thompson, Brian" <brian@hashvault.io> wrote:


> 
> Is this mailing list usually used for philosophical debates,
> persuasion, and
> primitive name-calling?  Genuinely curious so that I can unsub if it
> is.
> 

If you've subscribed for any length of time, you'll already know the
answer to that.

I've pointed out a number of times that the list is called
'debian-user', not 'debian-problems' or similar, and we're mostly
Debian users here. I use a very advanced mail client which displays the
subject header and threading, so I can decide for myself what to read
and what not to waste time on.

-- 
Joe

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#236686 — Re: [OT, maybe]

On 01-07-2021 06:18, Joe wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:02:43 -0500
> "Thompson, Brian" <brian@hashvault.io> wrote:
> 
> 
>>
>> Is this mailing list usually used for philosophical debates,
>> persuasion, and
>> primitive name-calling?  Genuinely curious so that I can unsub if it
>> is.
>>
> 
> If you've subscribed for any length of time, you'll already know the
> answer to that.
> 
> I've pointed out a number of times that the list is called
> 'debian-user', not 'debian-problems' or similar, and we're mostly
> Debian users here. I use a very advanced mail client which displays the
> subject header and threading, so I can decide for myself what to read
> and what not to waste time on.

Yes, it's very easy.
Just select all the ones, on whatever subject matter you don't wish to
concern yourself with, while holding down your Ctrl key, then hit
delete.
Debian is concerned with more than just the dealing of technical
computer/software problems: it has a substantial involvement in the
realm of philosophy, too, along with a need for the sort of social
interaction which melds community spirit, also.
Cheers!

Harry.
-- 
`When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty' 
-- Thomas Jefferson

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#236693 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

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On Mi, 30 iun 21, 11:02:43, Thompson, Brian wrote:
> 
> Is this mailing list usually used for philosophical debates, persuasion, and
> primitive name-calling?  Genuinely curious so that I can unsub if it is.

It happens more or less every time during the freeze, as there are less 
problems to solve.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#236692 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

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On Mi, 30 iun 21, 11:44:42, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
> Now here's what will amaze you...
> You can do the same with a computer.
> Take risk...
> Make your computer unusable...

Sure, it's a great learning experience.

> Type "alias cd=rm -rf"

In my opinion it's generally a bad idea to post stuff like this, even as 
joke. There's just too many people blindly copy-pasting commands of the 
internet.

> Open all the ports and get hacked.

This can affect others as well, if that computer becomes part of a 
botnet or whatever, so no, please don't do that if you can help it.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#236697 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer]

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Hi,

Note :
Sorry Andrei if this message may seem to be wrote directly to you
because in fact it's written to all the "you" around who may feel
concerned. You got a direct reply because I was replying to your
message. Again, this could be something not to be done.


On 2021-06-30 7:58 p.m., Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Mi, 30 iun 21, 11:44:42, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>
>> Now here's what will amaze you...
>> You can do the same with a computer.
>> Take risk...
>> Make your computer unusable...
> 
> Sure, it's a great learning experience.
> 
>> Type "alias cd=rm -rf"
> 
> In my opinion it's generally a bad idea to post stuff like this, even as 
> joke. There's just too many people blindly copy-pasting commands of the 
> internet.
> 
I know that there's a remote possibility that someone could type this
"only for a try", but at that point it could be the same as saying never
write how to erase the partition table directly with something like
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=1024k count=4

There's also a risk someone type a command out of context.

>> Open all the ports and get hacked.
> 
> This can affect others as well, if that computer becomes part of a 
> botnet or whatever, so no, please don't do that if you can help it.
> 
I do understand all of this AND the risk of putting burden on other
(like when you become part of a botnet).

BUT if you read the whole context of my message, instead of going for a
cherrypick then I'm sure you understand the point.

If we are talking about the lack of advancement in research regarding
artificial intelligence used for threat detection and I start talking on
the social theory behind what create the latest rise in the populist and
right wing party. You'll think I'm a bit off, even if there's a link
because most ring wing and populist based party distrust science and
research, so they won't fund it.

When you get too far from the day to day meaning, you start to loose
people, unless they have a interest in the subject. But this also apply
to people who have interest in the subject but want to change their
life, not society.

This also apply to what we see around here.

Ex :

You have the people who build their whole career around computer. For
them something not up to date is a computer that people are missing out
on their responsibility to maintain.

A partition table not setup by the latest standard (they believe in) is
something not done the proper way.

Unix was based on a KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid), as we see
with all the small utilities you can pipe on into another, that are
still there without much change after nearly 50 years of existence. All
deviation out of this rule will be seen as problematic. But with all
their rigid thinking and obligation of obeying to model and procedures,
they still prefer using SystemD.

A need for using a antivirus is a non negotiable obligation. You shall
be cursed if you ever lack your obligation of due diligence and cause
harm to other (even unknowingly). The simple fact you may have a virus
make you a person unfit to participate in the global network.
....

And there's most people on earth who don't give a minute thinking about
this.

Ask any business manager, he doesn't give much interest in his computer
installation, as long one thing goes, what is it ? That the system
permit core operation for the company and profit continue to get in.
That's it, don't care on all the "how, why, etc".

There's a rule that say "Don't change a great team". And it also apply
to computer science. So if your actual partition scheme work for you,
even if it's outdated, continue on.
Unless all your life revolve around computer and what goes with them.

But sorry ! Not everyone is so much interested in getting married with
silicon.

And even some people who do receive this mailing list may have
absolutely no interest in getting married with silicon.

This seem to be a huge problem that gets over all the time, as soon you
get a group of people who have strong interest in technology. The fact
that their need may be pretty far from most other people need seem to
vanishes and be out of reach for a bit of thinking.

Sorry guys, you are really nice to helping others out, are a mine of
knowledge and have built a great Linux distribution throughout the
years. But by pushing so much on your "system engineer based opinion"
this make people fly away.

I'll repeat a small story about myself.

I use Linux since early 1998-199, started with Slackware 3.3 on a 486.
Would take a night to compile the kernel, so start compilation before
heading to bed.

I compiled hundred of program, importing them from Kali into Debian when
they weren't available or backported some for my personal use. Yes, I
made the choice to prefer having a DEB package than using something
else. This way I get detection of file conflict between software and
other (this is my own choice).

I did a PhD in cognitive science, worked somewhat on the path of Seymour
Papert, even if I didn't develop a whole language like Logo. He's a
wonderful men with a genius mind.

I usually get pretty good at finding solution to my problem, using
differential diagnosis technique to pin point the area where something
went wrong, have a computer only for diagnosis purpose... So I may
qualify for a the term power user.

I do programming in C/C++/Ada... but I'm not so fast, I don't say I'm a
programmer. I also used some other esoteric language.

But...

If I ask for help regarding something pretty simple, in my example,
using grub with a BIOS boot partition on a GPT drive with a non UEFI
computer.

And get told that I'm wrong using this specific way of doing partition
because "come on there's no sense of using different partition for the
use you made. create one for /etc and you'll at least get real problem".
Which is something I didn't do, there's no use of creating a partition
for /etc and understood the irony behind that comment.

Still, this won't leave me with a feeling of being helped.

And honestly, I finally curved in and made the choice to post-pone this
problem.

Asked myself what did this mailing list gave me.

Got the answer that I could use it to search other peoples problem for
my own solution if a problem arise.

But I didn't take the most optimized route because I would have removed
my email account used for this and unsubscribe. Simply using the web
archive would give the same result for what I expect.

As time passed by, I was wondering if I could unsubscribe all of them at
once as it would be a bit long to do so, one by one.

I saw question passed, seeing I may have answer for some people, I
answered their question, the best I could. Specifying context of each of
my intervention.

And we got back to what I stated earlier.

So people who only see the possible solution as the ones who respect the
specified list of rules they believe, intervened and stated it was f****
wrong. Why ?

If someone knowingly accept a solution that may have more risk but this
is acceptable to them, why couldn't they ? Maybe the fact this solution
is easy will be the reason they've chose it.

Not everyone has the benefits, reason or lifestyle that pushes them to
obey to the standard of "optimized, latest algorithm, latest etc...".
And people have their reason, that's them, not you.

Sorry Andrei if this message may seem to be wrote directly to you
because in fact it's written to all the "you" around who may feel
concerned. You got a direct reply because I was replying to your
message. Again, this could be something not to be done.

Again, thanks all of you for the good work and for all the Debian
developers, packagers and writer of bug report around, great work thru
all those years.

> Kind regards,
> Andrei
> 

Sincerely,

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#236698 — Re: X server running on a different machine [Re: Wanted: a special purpose Debian installer] - continue

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Hi,

> ....
> 
> And there's most people on earth who don't give a minute thinking about
> this.
> 
> Ask any business manager, he doesn't give much interest in his computer
> installation, as long one thing goes, what is it ? That the system
> permit core operation for the company and profit continue to get in.
> That's it, don't care on all the "how, why, etc".
> 
> There's a rule that say "Don't change a great team". And it also apply
> to computer science. So if your actual partition scheme work for you,
> even if it's outdated, continue on.
> Unless all your life revolve around computer and what goes with them.
> 
> But sorry ! Not everyone is so much interested in getting married with
> silicon.
> 

I give a example, they guy who asked about a problem with MATE desktop
that he runs from under Windows.

But that we start trying to tell him that he shall change it because
using Windows Subsystem for Linux (or whatever the name, running Linux
under Windows) is not "the best way".

Sorry, he didn't ask anything regarding to this.

And I was the only one who gave him some clue of where he could find
answer about why can he run Synaptic with sudo but no by clicking on it.
I told him where he could find logs and how to trace such launch.

Maybe for a geek mind it seem trivial that WSL is not a good solution.
But if this guy did a master degree in Chemistry, I'm more than
convinced that he evaluated the situation in a more than proper way. Did
someone forget that when you touch higher education, what you mostly
learn is how to evaluate system, context, situation, knowledge, data...
You become a specialist in analysis, whatever branch you did.

I don't know how many of the ones who answered him took a minute to
think about this one or how many got close to a post graduate diploma.

> And even some people who do receive this mailing list may have
> absolutely no interest in getting married with silicon.
> 
This was the guy above's case. He got married with Chemistry but has the
need for the computer as a tool for analysis.


> This seem to be a huge problem that gets over all the time, as soon you
> get a group of people who have strong interest in technology. The fact
> that their need may be pretty far from most other people need seem to
> vanishes and be out of reach for a bit of thinking.
> 

Some people may be very knowledgeable on computer but don't care much on
everything that revolve around computer. They learned a programming
language for some work in a master degree in Chemistry, Physics, Natural
Science, Liberal arts and more. Like I did, I learned programming so I
could develop algorithm used to analysis context of word usage and
relate them to language ability of people.

And I'd be more than happy to share knowledge with others, contribute to
project or such. But I abstain from doing so for one reason...

The mentality that goes on when you pack a group of computer programmer
together. And don't ask them to admit that even the big computer tech
don't care about latest technology, standard and good way.

But they all say the opposite when you listen because they complain of
the bugs in closed source program ;-) And seem to also get it pretty
right that profit is the main motto for Apple, IBM, Oracle and others...
So yes a business manager is driven only by one thing profit.

And computer have only one use, other than gaming, that is to assist us
in making some process easier, better for us.

Unless you choose to get married to silicon and make your life revolving
around all that has to do with the best, the latest, what is considered
good and what's evil-outdated.

But by being so close minded and stubborn we loose people on this way
and we can't teach those to keep their computer safe, one step at a time.

Thanks for all the Debian contributor, developers, mentor and more.

With a bunch of love,

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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