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Re: PC fan getting very loud

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  Re: PC fan getting very loud Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-05-08 14:30 +0200
    Re: PC fan getting very loud deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-05-08 18:00 +0200
    Re: PC fan getting very loud Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-05-08 18:30 +0200
      Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-05-08 21:40 +0200
        Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2021-05-08 23:10 +0200
          Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-05-08 23:20 +0200
            Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-05-10 09:10 +0200
            Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-05-10 03:00 +0200
          Client-side vs. server-side Website processing (was Re: PC fan getting  very loud because of CPU load) The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-05-08 23:20 +0200
          Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-05-09 09:40 +0200
        Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-05-08 23:20 +0200
      Re: PC fan getting very loud Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-05-08 22:20 +0200

#234980 — Re: PC fan getting very loud

On Sat, 08 May 2021 11:13:34 +0200
deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:

> Fujitsu ESPRIMO Q520 when opening some sh*tty web sitesin firefox the
> fan gets extremly noisy.

Is the fan actually louder than it used to be on the same load? Many
fans, and not just the cheap ones, are 'lubricated for life', where
'life' means 'until the lubricant dries up'.

It's a pain doing anything about this, as it is almost always necessary
to remove the rotor to add more oil, and this are usually secured with a
tiny plastic split washer which disappears very easily. For that
matter, the metal circlips on the more expensive ones also disappear
easily...

-- 
Joe

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#234996

Joe wrote:

> Is the fan actually louder than it used to be on the same load? Many
> fans, and not just the cheap ones, are 'lubricated for life', where
> 'life' means 'until the lubricant dries up'.
> 
> It's a pain doing anything about this, as it is almost always necessary
> to remove the rotor to add more oil, and this are usually secured with a
> tiny plastic split washer which disappears very easily. For that
> matter, the metal circlips on the more expensive ones also disappear
> easily...

The problem is the fan turns on to high speed and becomes very loud because
the load on the CPU goes high. There is nothing wrong with this per se.
My problem is to understand why the h*ll on this machine it goes crazy. It
makes the machine unusable :/

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#234997

Joe wrote: 
> On Sat, 08 May 2021 11:13:34 +0200
> deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Fujitsu ESPRIMO Q520 when opening some sh*tty web sitesin firefox the
> > fan gets extremly noisy.
> 
> Is the fan actually louder than it used to be on the same load? Many
> fans, and not just the cheap ones, are 'lubricated for life', where
> 'life' means 'until the lubricant dries up'.
> 
> It's a pain doing anything about this, as it is almost always necessary
> to remove the rotor to add more oil, and this are usually secured with a
> tiny plastic split washer which disappears very easily. For that
> matter, the metal circlips on the more expensive ones also disappear
> easily...

It is also the case that fans are cheap. Replacing one for
$10-20 is generally good for another 5-10 years.

-dsr-

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#234999 — Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load

Dan Ritter wrote:

> It is also the case that fans are cheap. Replacing one for
> $10-20 is generally good for another 5-10 years.
> 

But the question is why it runs > 100% - the fan is not that important in
the case. It could be replaced with not so loud one, but the CPU will still
run at 100+ % when firefox is running.

I changed the title to make it more explanatory

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#235002 — Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load

On 9/5/21 3:33 am, deloptes wrote:
> Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
>> It is also the case that fans are cheap. Replacing one for
>> $10-20 is generally good for another 5-10 years.
>>
> 
> But the question is why it runs > 100% - the fan is not that important in
> the case. It could be replaced with not so loud one, but the CPU will still
> run at 100+ % when firefox is running.
> 
> I changed the title to make it more explanatory
> 

I think this goes to an issue, over which, I tend to get into heated 
arguments, including with my wife, who is a software developer, who 
develops web sites that I believe to be responsible.

In the original post, from memory, was stated that it happened with some 
web sites, and, not with others, and, this involves an issue of system 
load, due to particular web sites.

I think this goes to the issue of client side processing, as opposed to 
server side processing ( I believe, and, argue, that all processing 
involved with web sites, should be server side, if the web sites are 
competently and benignly written, and that client side processing, is 
malignant), and I suggest that it could be worth viewing the source code 
of the web site(s) responsible for the problem.

I sometimes encounter web sites that are so badly and heavily client 
side weighted, that it can take five to ten minutes, to get a response 
from  a key press, in a form, and, other web sites whizz through stuff, 
on the same computer, in the same web browser.

So, I tend to have more than one web browser running at the same time, 
with firefox script enabled, and, the other(s) script disabled.. On my 
other system, I have firefox running, script enabled, and, Seamonkey 
running, script disabled.

Another issue, depending upon the nature of the web site(s) with which 
you have a problem, could be in the use of plugins in firefox - some 
particularly malicious web sites put up quite aggressive fights against 
ad blocking and tracking blocking plugins, and try to burn out computers 
of users who object to ads and being tracked and who object to websites 
trying to steal the users' identities and personal information.

So, if you can find a trusted web site, I suggest temporarily disabling 
all plugins, and, monitoring the effect, if any, on your system load - I 
would not do this, with the web site(s) responsible for this problem - I 
think the system load problem, could be your computer defending itself 
against an attack.

I also wonder whether you notice any unexpected massive data traffic.

I have, from time to time, noticed unexpected sustained downloads, using 
up tens of gigabytes of my quota.

Unfortunately, insofar as I am aware, Linux does not have any packages 
that indicate what websites are responsible for Internet traffic; if I 
notice sustained downloading of over half a megabyte per second, all 
that I can do, is turn off the networking, for a couple of hours, and, 
check to see whether it resumes the unsolicited traffic.

-- 
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..............

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#235003 — Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load

Bret Busby wrote: 
> 
> I think this goes to the issue of client side processing, as opposed to
> server side processing ( I believe, and, argue, that all processing involved
> with web sites, should be server side, if the web sites are competently and
> benignly written, and that client side processing, is malignant), and I
> suggest that it could be worth viewing the source code of the web site(s)
> responsible for the problem.

There are some reasonable cases for client-side computing. It's
certainly badly overused.

> have a problem, could be in the use of plugins in firefox - some
> particularly malicious web sites put up quite aggressive fights against ad
> blocking and tracking blocking plugins, and try to burn out computers of
> users who object to ads and being tracked and who object to websites trying
> to steal the users' identities and personal information.

I've never encountered this -- please let me know some sample
URLs whenever you have time. 

> Unfortunately, insofar as I am aware, Linux does not have any packages that
> indicate what websites are responsible for Internet traffic; if I notice
> sustained downloading of over half a megabyte per second, all that I can do,
> is turn off the networking, for a couple of hours, and, check to see whether
> it resumes the unsolicited traffic.

Doing that would, in general, require an agent inside the
browser.

Turns out there is an agent inside the browser that can do this:
the standard web developer tools in Firefox (right click,
Inspect, then click on the new Network tab).

More generally, you can track live network activity per
interface and per IP (with DNS resolution, if possible) with the
tool iftop. Debian packages it.

Much more generally, you can graph long term network usage with
any number of tools; I like smokeping and librenms among others.

-dsr-

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#235015 — Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load

Celejar wrote:

>
https://old.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/comments/mu2qcm/indefinitely_increasing_blocked_elements/
> 
> I'm not sure that I would interpret this sort of thing as the website
> putting up an aggressive fight or deliberately trying to burn out
> anyone's computer, but it is an annoyance that one sometimes encounters.
> 
> Celejar

Thank you. I've been looking at the machine yesterday from remote and I
could not understand why on specific site the CPU usage goes that much up.

It could be that Alexander V. Makartsev is right about TCase and I came to
the conclusion that we'll try to replace the fan with a better one if
possible to find or just replace the PC. Unfortunately I'll be not
physically around the PC before July.

I wonder if green activists keep an eye on these abuse of the web sites and
someone has already calculated hoe much power is get lost because of this.

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#235052 — Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load

On Sat, 8 May 2021 17:18:35 -0400
Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> wrote:

> Bret Busby wrote: 
> > 
> > I think this goes to the issue of client side processing, as opposed to
> > server side processing ( I believe, and, argue, that all processing involved
> > with web sites, should be server side, if the web sites are competently and
> > benignly written, and that client side processing, is malignant), and I
> > suggest that it could be worth viewing the source code of the web site(s)
> > responsible for the problem.
> 
> There are some reasonable cases for client-side computing. It's
> certainly badly overused.
> 
> > have a problem, could be in the use of plugins in firefox - some
> > particularly malicious web sites put up quite aggressive fights against ad
> > blocking and tracking blocking plugins, and try to burn out computers of
> > users who object to ads and being tracked and who object to websites trying
> > to steal the users' identities and personal information.
> 
> I've never encountered this -- please let me know some sample
> URLs whenever you have time. 

https://old.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/comments/mu2qcm/indefinitely_increasing_blocked_elements/

I'm not sure that I would interpret this sort of thing as the website
putting up an aggressive fight or deliberately trying to burn out
anyone's computer, but it is an annoyance that one sometimes encounters.

Celejar

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#235004 — Client-side vs. server-side Website processing (was Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load)

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 2021-05-08 at 16:47, Bret Busby wrote:

> I think this goes to the issue of client side processing, as opposed
> to server side processing ( I believe, and, argue, that all
> processing involved with web sites, should be server side, if the web
> sites are competently and benignly written, and that client side
> processing, is malignant),

One possible (part of a) counterargument: data privacy.

Although I no longer recall specific examples, I've run across some
Websites in the past which were - or for which it was being argued that
they should be - designed to process as much data as possible on the
client side, specifically so as to minimize the data transmitted to the
server, and thus the data which could potentially be leaked to a third
party (or even mined for value by the second party, i.e. those who
control the server involved).

That also brings up the case of minimizing the data transferred in order
to minimize pay-per-byte transfer costs (as I understand to still be the
norm in some jurisdictions) or problems with data caps (as are becoming
increasingly common in other jurisdictions), but that's less likely to
be relevant for most Websites.

> and I suggest that it could be worth viewing the source code of the
> web site(s) responsible for the problem.
> 
> I sometimes encounter web sites that are so badly and heavily client
> side weighted, that it can take five to ten minutes, to get a
> response from  a key press, in a form, and, other web sites whizz
> through stuff, on the same computer, in the same web browser.

That, on the other hand, is *clearly* excessive.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#235022 — Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load

Bret Busby wrote:

> I think this goes to an issue, over which, I tend to get into heated
> arguments, including with my wife, who is a software developer, who
> develops web sites that I believe to be responsible.
> 
> In the original post, from memory, was stated that it happened with some
> web sites, and, not with others, and, this involves an issue of system
> load, due to particular web sites.
> 

Yes but it does not seem to be relevant, because I installed  same firefox
on both PCs and open same number of windows with same content.
On the C700 no CPU load and on the Q520 the described behavior just few
seconds after opening the first link.
So it must be something with the Q520 specifically.
I now will install also the same kernel on both machines to see if it makes
a difference.

> I think this goes to the issue of client side processing, as opposed to
> server side processing ( I believe, and, argue, that all processing
> involved with web sites, should be server side, if the web sites are
> competently and benignly written, and that client side processing, is
> malignant), and I suggest that it could be worth viewing the source code
> of the web site(s) responsible for the problem.
> 
> I sometimes encounter web sites that are so badly and heavily client
> side weighted, that it can take five to ten minutes, to get a response
> from  a key press, in a form, and, other web sites whizz through stuff,
> on the same computer, in the same web browser.
> 
> So, I tend to have more than one web browser running at the same time,
> with firefox script enabled, and, the other(s) script disabled.. On my
> other system, I have firefox running, script enabled, and, Seamonkey
> running, script disabled.
> 
> Another issue, depending upon the nature of the web site(s) with which
> you have a problem, could be in the use of plugins in firefox - some
> particularly malicious web sites put up quite aggressive fights against
> ad blocking and tracking blocking plugins, and try to burn out computers
> of users who object to ads and being tracked and who object to websites
> trying to steal the users' identities and personal information.
> 

Yes, this is true - I have to inspect this. On the C700 there is ad-blocker.
on the Q520 I am not sure.

> So, if you can find a trusted web site, I suggest temporarily disabling
> all plugins, and, monitoring the effect, if any, on your system load - I
> would not do this, with the web site(s) responsible for this problem - I
> think the system load problem, could be your computer defending itself
> against an attack.
> 
> I also wonder whether you notice any unexpected massive data traffic.
> 

no

> I have, from time to time, noticed unexpected sustained downloads, using
> up tens of gigabytes of my quota.
> 
> Unfortunately, insofar as I am aware, Linux does not have any packages
> that indicate what websites are responsible for Internet traffic; if I
> notice sustained downloading of over half a megabyte per second, all
> that I can do, is turn off the networking, for a couple of hours, and,
> check to see whether it resumes the unsolicited traffic.

This implies installing a device between the modem and the PC, but at the
end I may also do this. It will just take time

thank you for your long post and opinion

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#235005 — Re: PC fan getting very loud because of CPU load

deloptes [2021-05-08 21:33:47] wrote:
> Dan Ritter wrote:
>> It is also the case that fans are cheap. Replacing one for
>> $10-20 is generally good for another 5-10 years.
> But the question is why it runs > 100% - the fan is not that important in
> the case. It could be replaced with not so loud one, but the CPU will still
> run at 100+ % when firefox is running.

Actually, it could be related: on some of my laptops, when the fan
wasn't working well, I often saw both 100% CPU and a loud fan at the
same time, and both were due to the CPU's temperature (the system reacts
to too-high a temperature by increasing the fan speed, of course, but
also reducing significantly the CPU's frequency which in turn can cause
it to hit 100% usage even if there isn't a terribly high load).


        Stefan

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#235000

On Sat, 8 May 2021 12:22:45 -0400
Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> wrote:

> Joe wrote: 
> > On Sat, 08 May 2021 11:13:34 +0200
> > deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:
> >   
> > > Fujitsu ESPRIMO Q520 when opening some sh*tty web sitesin firefox
> > > the fan gets extremly noisy.  
> > 
> > Is the fan actually louder than it used to be on the same load? Many
> > fans, and not just the cheap ones, are 'lubricated for life', where
> > 'life' means 'until the lubricant dries up'.
> > 
> > It's a pain doing anything about this, as it is almost always
> > necessary to remove the rotor to add more oil, and this are usually
> > secured with a tiny plastic split washer which disappears very
> > easily. For that matter, the metal circlips on the more expensive
> > ones also disappear easily...  
> 
> It is also the case that fans are cheap. Replacing one for
> $10-20 is generally good for another 5-10 years.
> 
That is true, and I have various-sized spare ones, but there is some
satisfaction to be gained from getting another few years from a
one-cent drop of oil.

-- 
Joe 

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