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Groups > linux.debian.user > #238162 > unrolled thread

debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

Started by"Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com>
First post2021-08-05 00:10 +0200
Last post2021-08-12 21:40 +0200
Articles 5 on this page of 25 — 9 participants

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  debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-08-05 00:10 +0200
    Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-05 00:50 +0200
      Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-08-05 01:40 +0200
        Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-05 20:40 +0200
          Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-05 21:00 +0200
      Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-05 03:30 +0200
        Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Cindy Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2021-08-05 04:00 +0200
        Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2021-08-06 11:30 +0200
          Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-06 13:00 +0200
            Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-06 13:30 +0200
              Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-08-06 13:40 +0200
                Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-06 14:30 +0200
                  Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-06 18:40 +0200
                    Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-06 22:10 +0200
                      Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-08-06 22:40 +0200
              Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-06 18:30 +0200
                Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2021-08-06 22:30 +0200
                  Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-07 01:00 +0200
                    Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-07 09:30 +0200
            Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-08-06 14:10 +0200
            Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2021-08-06 15:50 +0200
              Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-06 18:50 +0200
                Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2021-08-06 22:10 +0200
    Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2021-08-06 11:30 +0200
    Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2021-08-12 21:40 +0200

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#238267

FromJonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land>
Date2021-08-06 15:50 +0200
Message-ID<CJ8oy-pr-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#238262
On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 06:54:53AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>Maybe this is obvious for you, but for myself, I don't take note of
>who's "on the list" and "who's not". So if someone reply to me regarding
>a message that was posted on the list, there's pretty good chance that
>I'll reply "on the list".

It's not obvious to me, but I take the time to be careful about replying
to the right place. I make use of decent mail tools configured properly
to aid me in this, because to do otherwise is a serious breach of
netiquette.

In short: if the mail was delivered from the list, it will have the
correct List-* headers, and a decent, properly-configured MUA will do
the right thing.

If your MUA doesn't help you with this, feel free to ask for advice
about decent MUAs, right here on this list!

>This list is "unmoderated" and if better access control is needed then
>maybe it would be time to change how it works. For example, limiting
>posting to people registered would be a pretty good idea.

This is more or less the opposite problem to the one we are discussing,
namely, people who *cannot* post to the list, who are not doing so.
Moderation isn't going to make any difference to this case.


-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#238275

FromPolyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com>
Date2021-08-06 18:50 +0200
Message-ID<CJbcK-24Q-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#238267

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Hi,

On 2021-08-06 9:43 a.m., Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 06:54:53AM -0400, Polyna-Maude
> Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>> Maybe this is obvious for you, but for myself, I don't take note of
>> who's "on the list" and "who's not". So if someone reply to me regarding
>> a message that was posted on the list, there's pretty good chance that
>> I'll reply "on the list".
> 
> It's not obvious to me, but I take the time to be careful about replying
> to the right place. I make use of decent mail tools configured properly
> to aid me in this, because to do otherwise is a serious breach of
> netiquette.
> 
> In short: if the mail was delivered from the list, it will have the
> correct List-* headers, and a decent, properly-configured MUA will do
> the right thing.
> 
> If your MUA doesn't help you with this, feel free to ask for advice
> about decent MUAs, right here on this list!
> 
>> This list is "unmoderated" and if better access control is needed then
>> maybe it would be time to change how it works. For example, limiting
>> posting to people registered would be a pretty good idea.
> 
> This is more or less the opposite problem to the one we are discussing,
> namely, people who *cannot* post to the list, who are not doing so.
> Moderation isn't going to make any difference to this case.
> 
No it's not the opposite problem.
If the list become moderated or at least controlled in some way then it
would prevent outsider (people not registered on the mailing list) from
send mail onto the list.

Now even if you ban someone, it just need that they create another
address and send a message for it to appear on the list.

Rendering banning pretty much useless for preventing people from writing
stupidity. And that is mostly the reason for banning people, based on
what they write (preventing people from getting the mailing list send to
them is irrelevant as they'll be able to look on the web).
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#238280

FromJonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land>
Date2021-08-06 22:10 +0200
Message-ID<CJekh-452-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#238275
On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 12:39:59PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>No it's not the opposite problem.
>If the list become moderated or at least controlled in some way then it
>would prevent outsider (people not registered on the mailing list) from
>send mail onto the list.

Except, we do control the list, by banning people. Banned people cannot
send mail to the list.

>Now even if you ban someone, it just need that they create another
>address and send a message for it to appear on the list.

Yes that is true. But it is not what is happening.

What is happening (well, what happened once... I don't know if it's more
common) is that someone who cannot post to the list, got their content
onto the list, by an innocent bystander (you) accidentally quoting their
off-list, private mail, onto the list.
  
Moderating the list would not prevent that, because you would presumably
be subscribed and able to post.  (If by "moderating" you mean "only list
subscribers can post to the list").

>Rendering banning pretty much useless for preventing people from writing
>stupidity.

Despite the fact that yes, people can circumvent address-based bans, the
current approach is working remarkably effectively, IMHO.

We *do* moderate some Debian lists. I am a volunteer moderator for one
of them (although, I haven't participated in moderation for months.)


-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#238260

FromJonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land>
Date2021-08-06 11:30 +0200
Message-ID<CJ4kW-6xS-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#238162
Hi Andrew,

Greg wrote a useful mail in another thread
(<YQrPCU15uhwjKfFn@wooledge.org>) and Dan replied to suggest that some
of his points might be worth folding into your monthly mail-out. (In
case you haven't seen that thread.)


Best,

-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#238557

FromMarco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net>
Date2021-08-12 21:40 +0200
Message-ID<CLoIy-4d1-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#238162
On 05.08.21 00:01, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
> and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.
> 
> Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:
> 
> * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing
>    lists that are language-specific for example debian-user-french
> 
> * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists - for example,
>    from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
>    English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.
> 
> * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both
>    the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
> 
>   https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
>   https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
> 
> * This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
>    answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
>    others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
>    may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.
> 
> * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
>    It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.
> 
>   * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
>     welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
>     do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; don't
>     assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
>     Debian list.

Just that it really becomes as clear as possible, maybe add or merge 
right here with the same indent as the last above cited paragraph more 
advise with words which are similarly mentioned elsewhere but also would 
be of benefit to the mailing list(s):

     * Be respectful and polite. If you write in an unpleasant manner, 
people won't feel motivated to work with you. Don't feel attacked by 
criticizing words, seriously consider the possibility that you haven't 
been attacked and instead got suggested a correction. Also consider that 
disagreement might not have to be discussed and might not help to solve 
the technical issue treated in the thread. If you feel attacked then be 
the better person and ignore it - instead of feeding conflict. Convince 
people with results, rather than words.



Always stay in good spirits!
Marco

PS: above words are partly based on statements extracted from
https://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=149781
https://people.debian.org/~enrico/dcg/
My English or wording might need to be improved!

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