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HOW's lost @ $ €

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  HOW's lost @ $ € Gunnar Gervin <dofeelok@gmail.com> - 2021-08-04 12:40 +0200
    Re: HOW's lost @ $ € Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-04 12:50 +0200
      Re: HOW's lost @ $ € Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-04 12:50 +0200
      Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-04 13:00 +0200
        Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $   €] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-08-04 14:40 +0200
          Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-04 15:20 +0200
            Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-04 18:50 +0200
              Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-04 19:20 +0200
                Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-04 20:10 +0200
                  Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-04 20:50 +0200
                  Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-08-04 20:50 +0200
                    Re: Manners and useful subject ellanios82 <ellanios82@gmail.com> - 2021-08-04 21:10 +0200
                    Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-04 21:20 +0200
                      Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-08-04 21:40 +0200
                        Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-05 03:20 +0200
                      Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-05 03:30 +0200
                        Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-05 09:30 +0200
                        Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-05 20:30 +0200
                Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-04 20:30 +0200
        Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-08-04 18:00 +0200
          Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-04 18:40 +0200
            Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-08-04 19:40 +0200
              Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-04 20:00 +0200
              Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: @ $ EUR] Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-08-04 20:30 +0200
                Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: @ $ EUR] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-04 20:40 +0200
              Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: @ $ EUR] "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-08-04 20:30 +0200
              Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-08-04 22:00 +0200
            Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-08-04 21:40 +0200
    Re: HOW's lost @ $ EUR "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-08-04 13:10 +0200
    Re: HOW's lost @ $ € Keith Bainbridge <ke1thrboz@gmx.com> - 2021-08-04 15:10 +0200

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#238139 — Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €]

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Hi,

>>>     What command do you use ?
>>>     Mostly the answer would be NO
>> *still waiting for answer*
> 
> Seriously? You /wait/ for answers here?
> (Dare I say it), you /want/ another post from the OP?
No I don't wait for answer.
It's just a way to politely explain that if you want people to help out
then it would be the basic thing of answering when it seems that there's
some information missing and that we asked you something.

And to do so, before, asking a bunch of other things or repeating the
same one.
> 
> I think the idea with mailing lists is that you compose and post
> replies in your own time, and that conversations are open to
> interjections from all. I was under the impression that something
> called IRC was available for realtime chatting (though I've never tried it).
> 

I know what is IRC and I'm sure what I meant is easily understood by
reading up in this message.

Go try IRC and you'll see that this "Gunnar" is far from a exception and
trolling may be the rule on such system (IRC).
>>
> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#238145 — Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €]

On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 12:35:29PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> Go try IRC and you'll see that this "Gunnar" is far from a exception and
> trolling may be the rule on such system (IRC).

At the moment, I see no evidence that Gunnar is trolling, although
obviously I could be mistaken.  He seems to be struggling with the
English language, as well as the mailing list culture, as well as
the multiple technical problems he's having.

I'm guessing he has more experience with web forums, social media, or
"chat" systems than he does with mailing lists.  His approach is one
that I've seen before, fortunately not often.  What I've observed:

1) He does not take his time to compose messages and consolidate all
   of the information available.  Rather, he writes whatever thought
   he has in the moment, and sends it immediately.  If he has another
   thought 30 seconds later, he sends that as well, in a new message,
   possibly even a new thread.

2) His writing is disorganized, in a way that goes beyond struggling
   with the language.  He doesn't lay out a clear message -- "This is
   what I want to do, here is what I tried, and here is what happened."
   Even if he struggles with English, he should still be able to draw
   a basic outline of the situation.

   Most of his messages are so disjointed that I don't even attempt to
   piece together what he's asking.  I've just been deleting them.

3) He has information available that he is *not* giving us.  This is the
   most frustrating aspect.  I don't know about other readers, but this
   instantly raises red flags for me.  I immediately suspect that
   we're getting an intentionally misleading picture, and possibly
   outright lies, in addition to the omissions.

   On IRC, what this usually means is that the user in question is not
   running Debian.  And yet they want #debian to support them.  They
   *know* that they will not be supported when it becomes known that
   they're not running Debian, and yet they withhold information, they
   deceive, and they sometimes lie, all in some sort of desperate attempt
   to get support from the wrong channel.  This happens *way* too often.

Here's what I would suggest to Gunnar, and to anyone else who is not
getting the responses they want from a mailing list:

1) Only try to solve one problem at a time.  Pick the problem that you
   want to solve first, and focus exclusively on that.  Don't get
   side-tracked.

2) Put all of the information you have into one message.  If people have
   to collect your information from multiple separate messages, it
   greatly reduces the chances that people will spend the time and
   energy required to do this.

3) Take your time writing.  Mailing lists are not chat systems.  You
   will not get an answer in seconds.  The people who respond to you
   will also take their time, trying to compose a useful reply.

   Your message, and the responses to it, will be archived and available
   for the whole world to see, forever.  Try to make a good impression.

   Be sure to proofread.  Spelling, grammar, and content errors will all
   cause confusion, especially in readers who are not fluent in English,
   or who are not top-tier experts in whatever technical issue you're
   having.  If you're not fluent in English, just do the best you can.

4) Actually compose your message.  Don't just write random sentences;
   write something that's easy to follow.

   Try to structure your message the way you would structure a school
   essay.  Paragraphs should be coherent, with a main point (topic)
   and supporting details.  Events that occur in chronological sequence
   should be written that way ("first A happens, then B happens").

   Don't write more than you have to, but don't write *less* than you need
   either.  Skipping steps in your writing makes it a lot harder for
   the reader to follow.

5) Make sure your goal is clear.  The Subject: header should be a brief
   summary of your issue, and the first paragraph of the body should be
   a longer description of it.  If a random stranger can't tell what
   you're trying to do after reading the first paragraph, then your
   message isn't clear enough yet.

6) Provide all of the necessary details.  At a bare minimum, this should
   include which version of Debian you're running, because this *is* a
   Debian mailing list.  If your problem isn't about Debian, it's not
   on topic.

   If you're having a problem, you should provide enough information to
   reproduce the problem.  What steps do you perform, from start to
   finish?  What do you see/hear?  Does the problem happen every time,
   or only sometimes?  If you can reproduce the problem in a terminal
   session, then please paste that terminal session into the body of
   your message.  If the problem only happens in X or Wayland, try to
   describe what you're doing, and what's happening, as best you can.

   If you're trying to accomplish something, then there won't always
   be a description of steps taken, because you might not even know
   how to begin.  But if you *did* try something already (which didn't
   work), it would be helpful to say what you tried, and what happened,
   and how this differs from your desired outcome.

   If you're using a specific piece of software, tell us exactly what it
   is -- its name and its version number.  If it came from Debian, give
   us the Debian package's version number.  If it did *not* come from
   Debian, be sure to say this, and tell us where it came from, and its
   upstream version number.

7) If people request additional information, please provide it.  However,
   there's some judgment required here.

   Sometimes, people will request information you've already given; in
   these cases, you need to decide whether it's best to repeat yourself,
   or to point out the previous message containing the information, or
   to ignore this particular response for the moment.

   You may also want to wait a bit before providing additional information,
   in case other people ask for even more.  If you get several requests
   for information, it's usually best if you consolidate them all and
   reply with a single message that contains *all* of the additional
   information.  This goes back to the point about putting as much
   information as possible into a single message.  It's *much* easier
   to help you if all of the inforation we need is in one place.

That's probably enough for now.

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#238146 — Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €]

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Hi Greg,

On 2021-08-04 1:31 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 12:35:29PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>> Go try IRC and you'll see that this "Gunnar" is far from a exception and
>> trolling may be the rule on such system (IRC).
> 
> At the moment, I see no evidence that Gunnar is trolling, although
> obviously I could be mistaken.  He seems to be struggling with the
> English language, as well as the mailing list culture, as well as
> the multiple technical problems he's having.
> 
Maybe trolling wasn't the right word, I wasn't the one who used if first.

I've said he was having some type of personal crisis in expecting
immediate answer or write again.

> I'm guessing he has more experience with web forums, social media, or
> "chat" systems than he does with mailing lists.  His approach is one
> that I've seen before, fortunately not often.  What I've observed:
> 
I agree with the difference between chat and mailing list.

> 1) He does not take his time to compose messages and consolidate all
...

> 2) His writing is disorganized, in a way that goes beyond struggling
...

> 3) He has information available that he is *not* giving us.  This is the

...

I have to agree on what you wrote here (and that I removed to make it
easier). But as Debian is one of the operating system that get the most
support from community, it's possible that many person don't run the
Distribution but try to get help here.

> Here's what I would suggest to Gunnar, and to anyone else who is not
> getting the responses they want from a mailing list:
> 
> 1) Only try to solve one problem at a time.  Pick the problem that you
>    want to solve first, and focus exclusively on that.  Don't get
>    side-tracked.
> 
> 2) Put all of the information you have into one message.  If people have
>    to collect your information from multiple separate messages, it
>    greatly reduces the chances that people will spend the time and
>    energy required to do this.
> 
> 3) Take your time writing.  Mailing lists are not chat systems.  You
>    will not get an answer in seconds.  The people who respond to you
>    will also take their time, trying to compose a useful reply.
> 
>    Your message, and the responses to it, will be archived and available
>    for the whole world to see, forever.  Try to make a good impression.
> 
>    Be sure to proofread.  Spelling, grammar, and content errors will all
>    cause confusion, especially in readers who are not fluent in English,
>    or who are not top-tier experts in whatever technical issue you're
>    having.  If you're not fluent in English, just do the best you can.
> 
> 4) Actually compose your message.  Don't just write random sentences;
>    write something that's easy to follow.
> 
>    Try to structure your message the way you would structure a school
>    essay.  Paragraphs should be coherent, with a main point (topic)
>    and supporting details.  Events that occur in chronological sequence
>    should be written that way ("first A happens, then B happens").
> 
>    Don't write more than you have to, but don't write *less* than you need
>    either.  Skipping steps in your writing makes it a lot harder for
>    the reader to follow.
> 
> 5) Make sure your goal is clear.  The Subject: header should be a brief
>    summary of your issue, and the first paragraph of the body should be
>    a longer description of it.  If a random stranger can't tell what
>    you're trying to do after reading the first paragraph, then your
>    message isn't clear enough yet.
> 
> 6) Provide all of the necessary details.  At a bare minimum, this should
>    include which version of Debian you're running, because this *is* a
>    Debian mailing list.  If your problem isn't about Debian, it's not
>    on topic.
> 
>    If you're having a problem, you should provide enough information to
>    reproduce the problem.  What steps do you perform, from start to
>    finish?  What do you see/hear?  Does the problem happen every time,
>    or only sometimes?  If you can reproduce the problem in a terminal
>    session, then please paste that terminal session into the body of
>    your message.  If the problem only happens in X or Wayland, try to
>    describe what you're doing, and what's happening, as best you can.
> 
>    If you're trying to accomplish something, then there won't always
>    be a description of steps taken, because you might not even know
>    how to begin.  But if you *did* try something already (which didn't
>    work), it would be helpful to say what you tried, and what happened,
>    and how this differs from your desired outcome.
> 
>    If you're using a specific piece of software, tell us exactly what it
>    is -- its name and its version number.  If it came from Debian, give
>    us the Debian package's version number.  If it did *not* come from
>    Debian, be sure to say this, and tell us where it came from, and its
>    upstream version number.
> 
> 7) If people request additional information, please provide it.  However,
>    there's some judgment required here.
> 
>    Sometimes, people will request information you've already given; in
>    these cases, you need to decide whether it's best to repeat yourself,
>    or to point out the previous message containing the information, or
>    to ignore this particular response for the moment.
> 
>    You may also want to wait a bit before providing additional information,
>    in case other people ask for even more.  If you get several requests
>    for information, it's usually best if you consolidate them all and
>    reply with a single message that contains *all* of the additional
>    information.  This goes back to the point about putting as much
>    information as possible into a single message.  It's *much* easier
>    to help you if all of the inforation we need is in one place.
> 
> That's probably enough for now.
> 
That's somewhat what I also wrote, in different message and not in a so
well written fashion. I went for the easy way as he seem to struggle
with English.

And other have too, like referring the the xyproblem website.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#238149 — Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: @ $ EUR]

Thomas Schmitt wrote: 
> Hi,
> 
> Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > At the moment, I see no evidence that Gunnar is trolling
> 
> He reports to have "lost (nb.UTF-8 or similar) setup (Norwegian bokmål)"
> which is what a classical troll would probably try to use.
> 
> (I don't discriminate trolls or werewolves as long as they operate a
>  burner drive or want to make an ISO filesystem.)

Ah, you think that Gunnar is a bridge or mountain troll, not a
forum troll. Got it. Very different species.

-dsr-

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#238151 — Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: @ $ EUR]

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Hi,

On 2021-08-04 2:24 p.m., Dan Ritter wrote:
> Thomas Schmitt wrote: 
>> Hi,
>>
>> Greg Wooledge wrote:
>>> At the moment, I see no evidence that Gunnar is trolling
>>
>> He reports to have "lost (nb.UTF-8 or similar) setup (Norwegian bokmål)"
>> which is what a classical troll would probably try to use.
>>
>> (I don't discriminate trolls or werewolves as long as they operate a
>>  burner drive or want to make an ISO filesystem.)
> 
> Ah, you think that Gunnar is a bridge or mountain troll, not a
> forum troll. Got it. Very different species.
> 
A MacBook Troll is a very unique species...It's the opposite of a Gnu Troll
> -dsr-
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

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#238150 — Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: @ $ EUR]

Hi,

Greg Wooledge wrote:
> At the moment, I see no evidence that Gunnar is trolling

He reports to have "lost (nb.UTF-8 or similar) setup (Norwegian bokmål)"
which is what a classical troll would probably try to use.

(I don't discriminate trolls or werewolves as long as they operate a
 burner drive or want to make an ISO filesystem.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#238161 — Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €]

On Wed 04 Aug 2021 at 13:31:53 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:

> Here's what I would suggest to Gunnar, and to anyone else who is not
> getting the responses they want from a mailing list:
> 
> 1) Only try to solve one problem at a time. [ … ]
> 
> 2) Put all of the information you have into one message. [ … ]
> 
> 3) Take your time writing.  Mailing lists are not chat systems. [ … ]
> 
> 4) Actually compose your message.  Don't just write random sentences; [ … ]
> 
> 5) Make sure your goal is clear.  The Subject: header should be [ … ]
> 
> 6) Provide all of the necessary details. [ … ]
> 
> 7) If people request additional information, please provide it. [ … ]

Good one. It might be possible to fold parts of this into Andrew's
monthly post (which I've missed this month).

> That's probably enough for now.

Cheers,
David.

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#238157 — Re: Manners and useful subject [was Re: HOW's lost @ $ €]

On Wed 04 Aug 2021 at 12:35:29 (-0400), Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> >>>     What command do you use ?
> >>>     Mostly the answer would be NO
> >> *still waiting for answer*
> > 
> > Seriously? You /wait/ for answers here?
> > (Dare I say it), you /want/ another post from the OP?
> No I don't wait for answer.
> It's just a way to politely explain that if you want people to help out
> then it would be the basic thing of answering when it seems that there's
> some information missing and that we asked you something.
> 
> And to do so, before, asking a bunch of other things or repeating the
> same one.
> > 
> > I think the idea with mailing lists is that you compose and post
> > replies in your own time, and that conversations are open to
> > interjections from all. I was under the impression that something
> > called IRC was available for realtime chatting (though I've never tried it).

> I know what is IRC

I don't deny it.

> and I'm sure

Nor that.

> what I meant is easily understood by
> reading up in this message.

Perhaps I find it difficult to understand
  *still waiting for answer*
as a polite explanation.

> Go try IRC

Um, no.

> and you'll see that this "Gunnar" is far from a exception and
> trolling may be the rule on such system (IRC).

I've already commented on someone else's suggestion of trolling,
and so will add nothing more here, except to say that the expression
  this "Gunnar"
is not a very polite way to refer to a person.

(And no, don't let's revisit the October 2020 thread.)

Cheers,
David.

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#238130 — Re: HOW's lost @ $ EUR

Hi,

Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> The commands to burn iso to usb, are they usable for dvd, too?

This depends on the medium type and state. Those commands can work with
BD-RE, DVD-RAM, DVD+RW, formatted DVD-RW (via a packet device set up by
pktsetup(1) from package udftools), and formatted CD-RW (formatted by
cdrwtool(1) from udftools).

But normally optical media are written by burn programs.
See Debian's advise at
  https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#record-unix
  https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#record-windows
  https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#record-mac

In general it is important to select the program's operation mode for
writing a preformatted image to medium, rather than the mode where the
user composes an own filesystem from one or more files.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#238134

On 4/8/21 20:35, Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> Seems to me this old Mac can't boot from usb,

This link
https://www.uubyte.com/boot-mac-from-usb.html

and this
https://recoverit.wondershare.com/mac-tips/boot-from-usb-drive-mac.html

say hold the option key from power on; as well as detailed info about
creating a bootable usb



--
All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keith.bainbridge.3216@gmail.com
0447 667 468

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