Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > linux.debian.user > #237826 > unrolled thread

Clean install or update

Back to article view | Back to linux.debian.user

Contents

  Clean install or update Gunnar Gervin <dofeelok@gmail.com> - 2021-07-27 23:30 +0200
    Re: Clean install or update Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-28 12:30 +0200
      Re: Clean install or update Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2021-07-28 13:30 +0200
        Re: Clean install or update Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-28 18:50 +0200
          Re: Clean install or update Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2021-07-28 19:30 +0200
    Re: Clean install or update Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-28 12:40 +0200

#237826 — Clean install or update

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Polyna,
I prefer clean install because my old computer often crashes after updating.
According to my expert friend, Linus Torvalds "user space respect" means he
asks developers Not to invade / destroy user space; crashing some computers
cos they`re thinking "it`ll work for most users, so we`re going for it". 2
ways to crash my computer:

1. Force it to use 64 bits not 32 bits.
2. Force it to use UEFI and not the BIOS & bios-grub

I suppose there are many other ways, like new, wrong drivers.
I wish you a marvellous day of social interactions in love & respect.
BR,
geg

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#237833

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Hi,

On 2021-07-27 5:22 p.m., Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> Polyna,
> I prefer clean install because my old computer often crashes after updating.
If you want to do a clean install every two days because new software
will require you to update your Debian box, then it's your choice. But I
use my system for useful stuff and can't be passing all my time looking
at install screen.

Maybe you confused two thing...

Does a distribution or release update, that is passing from stretch to
buster or buster to bullseye.
There it could be useful to do a clean install but it's a matter of choice.

And doing system update that happens every day.
There it would be pretty much time consuming and somewhat "stupid" to do
a clean install everyday or two.

> According to my expert friend, Linus Torvalds "user space respect" mean> he asks developers Not to invade / destroy user space; crashing some
> computers
If you are friend with Linus Torvalds, then great, we'll all know who to
pass by when we have problem to get answers.

I think what you mean here is making technical choices for the masses
with the idea that most people will prefer one choice and choose this one.

Yes this happens all the time.

But software system that is built properly also test if those choices
are acceptable for the user before using them.

One example would be Debian installer asking if you'd like
one partition
one partition for root and one for home
or do the partitioning yourself.

Would like to get more information on what you mean here, because all of
this is far from clear.

> cos they`re thinking "it`ll work for most users, so we`re going for it".
> 2 ways to crash my computer:
> 
> 1. Force it to use 64 bits not 32 bits.
I have no clue what you are talking about...
Because we've been using 64 bits for the last 10 years or so.
Even more, got a Precision 490 from DELL, date from 2007 and run x64.
And software test if it's possible switching to 64 bit before doing so.
Also, you can't run a 64 bit distro on a 32 bit computer, you'll simply
get a error message. No crash.
Also, if you try to run a 64 bit software inside a 32 bit distro then
you'll get a error message, and if you are good enough to make dpkg
install a 64 bit software on a 32 bit distro then I don't know why you
wouldn't know that it will fail...

> 2. Force it to use UEFI and not the BIOS & bios-grub
Again clueless of why you say that.
Other than some rack server, many people if not most of them, will run
UEFI and some system even only use UEFI (Mac for example, Sun machine too).

> 
> I suppose there are many other ways, like new, wrong drivers.
> I wish you a marvellous day of social interactions in love & respect.
> BR,
> geg
> 

Some simple word, add precision and prevent misunderstanding...
Just saying the word update without context doesn't allow the reader to
understand.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#237835

	Hi.

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 06:25:50AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> > 2. Force it to use UEFI and not the BIOS & bios-grub
> Again clueless of why you say that.
> Other than some rack server,

Modern x86 servers happen to use UEFI too.
Modern ARM64 servers do it too.

Things are different for POWERs and UltraSPARCs.

> many people if not most of them, will run UEFI

True for x86. Most of the time that's because the manufacturer does not
give such people a choice - it's either UEFI, or CSM (aka BIOS) with
severely reduced functions. How would you like your videocard
functioning only if OS is booted via UEFI, for instance?

False for consumers' ARM and MIPS. With rare exceptions, UEFI is
non-existant there.

> and some system even only use UEFI (Mac for example,

True, although I don't have a personal experience with them.

> Sun machine too).

Clarification needed.

UltraSPARCs (which are true Suns) used and continue to use OBP, which
has nothing in common with UEFI. And it does not really matter which
UltraSPARC it is - Oracle's or Fujustu's.

Solaris x86, which is no true Solaris by any means of course, can be
booted by both BIOS and UEFI, because it uses the same GRUB as Linux
does. Running on x86 applies the same restrictions as discussed above.

Reco

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#237848

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Hi,

On 2021-07-28 7:24 a.m., Reco wrote:
> 	Hi.
> 
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 06:25:50AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>> 2. Force it to use UEFI and not the BIOS & bios-grub
>> Again clueless of why you say that.
>> Other than some rack server,
> 
> Modern x86 servers happen to use UEFI too.
Yes but many of the rack I see are still BIOS.
> Modern ARM64 servers do it too.
> 
Was talking about x86 mainly because the initial thread, the user said
he was a newbie. So didn't want much to get him confused between
architecture.
> Things are different for POWERs and UltraSPARCs.
> 
>> many people if not most of them, will run UEFI
> 
> True for x86. Most of the time that's because the manufacturer does not
> give such people a choice - it's either UEFI, or CSM (aka BIOS) with
> severely reduced functions. How would you like your videocard
> functioning only if OS is booted via UEFI, for instance?
Never got to deal with such problem but yes, I'd be annoyed to need UEFI
to get my video card running.
> 
> False for consumers' ARM and MIPS. With rare exceptions, UEFI is
> non-existant there.
> 
>> and some system even only use UEFI (Mac for example,
> 
> True, although I don't have a personal experience with them.
> 
I should have said, Mac on x86/x64 platform.

>> Sun machine too).
> 
> Clarification needed.
> 
> UltraSPARCs (which are true Suns) used and continue to use OBP, which
> has nothing in common with UEFI. And it does not really matter which
> UltraSPARC it is - Oracle's or Fujustu's.
> 
> Solaris x86, which is no true Solaris by any means of course, can be
> booted by both BIOS and UEFI, because it uses the same GRUB as Linux
> does. Running on x86 applies the same restrictions as discussed above.
> 
I make a distinction between Solaris and Sun.
When I talk about Sun, I shall say Sparc.
And I got confused between UEFI and OBP for these.
> Reco
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#237852

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 12:41:44PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> On 2021-07-28 7:24 a.m., Reco wrote:
> > 	Hi.
> > 
> > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 06:25:50AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> >>> 2. Force it to use UEFI and not the BIOS & bios-grub
> >> Again clueless of why you say that.
> >> Other than some rack server,
> > 
> > Modern x86 servers happen to use UEFI too.
> Yes but many of the rack I see are still BIOS.

So do I. But I cannot call those I see "modern".


> Was talking about x86 mainly because the initial thread, the user said
> he was a newbie. So didn't want much to get him confused between
> architecture.
> > Things are different for POWERs and UltraSPARCs.
> > 
> >> many people if not most of them, will run UEFI
> > 
> > True for x86. Most of the time that's because the manufacturer does not
> > give such people a choice - it's either UEFI, or CSM (aka BIOS) with
> > severely reduced functions. How would you like your videocard
> > functioning only if OS is booted via UEFI, for instance?
> Never got to deal with such problem but yes, I'd be annoyed to need UEFI
> to get my video card running.

Just a spicy tidbit from a radiant consumer world.
Server hardware is more conservative, of course.


> > False for consumers' ARM and MIPS. With rare exceptions, UEFI is
> > non-existant there.
> > 
> >> and some system even only use UEFI (Mac for example,
> > 
> > True, although I don't have a personal experience with them.
> > 
> I should have said, Mac on x86/x64 platform.

Irrelevant. That new fancy ARM Mac is using UEFI too, or so they say.
Whatever Apple used then they used PowerPCs has historical value at best.


> >> Sun machine too).
> > 
> > Clarification needed.
> > 
> > UltraSPARCs (which are true Suns) used and continue to use OBP, which
> > has nothing in common with UEFI. And it does not really matter which
> > UltraSPARC it is - Oracle's or Fujustu's.
> > 
> > Solaris x86, which is no true Solaris by any means of course, can be
> > booted by both BIOS and UEFI, because it uses the same GRUB as Linux
> > does. Running on x86 applies the same restrictions as discussed above.
> > 
> I make a distinction between Solaris and Sun.

I do too, but really, if you have that M8 - do you run Linux on it? Or,
for instance, NetBSD?
OK, M8 is costly. Let's consider something cheaper and older, like T4 or T5.
I know one can get those on eBay, heck, someone still sells T2000s, T1s,
and even parts for E25Ks there.
Does it still run Solaris for a certain reason? Because those that I
see in my line of work definitely do.

It's possible, of course, to run something other than Solaris on both T
and M series (unsure about E series), I still have that LDOM running
kernel 4.1.12 just because I can, but it never grew up to anything
bigger than proof-of-concept.

Reco

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#237834

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Hi,

On 2021-07-27 5:22 p.m., Gunnar Gervin wrote:
> Polyna,
> I prefer clean install because my old computer often crashes after updating.
Maybe you could share your computer information on the group and I'm
sure many of fellow user will be glad to help you solve your problems.

If it does crash on update then it means it shall be investigated.
Maybe there's some buggy software involved.

> According to my expert friend, Linus Torvalds "user space respect" means
> he asks developers Not to invade / destroy user space; crashing some
> computers
> cos they`re thinking "it`ll work for most users, so we`re going for it".
> 2 ways to crash my computer:
> 
> 1. Force it to use 64 bits not 32 bits.
> 2. Force it to use UEFI and not the BIOS & bios-grub
> 
> I suppose there are many other ways, like new, wrong drivers.
> I wish you a marvellous day of social interactions in love & respect.
> BR,
> geg
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Back to top | Article view | linux.debian.user

csiph-web