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pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

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  pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ... Albretch Mueller <lbrtchx@gmail.com> - 2021-04-14 17:30 +0200
    Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-04-14 18:20 +0200
    Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... didier gaumet <didier.gaumet@gmail.com> - 2021-04-14 20:30 +0200
      Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ... Albretch Mueller <lbrtchx@gmail.com> - 2021-04-15 02:30 +0200
        Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... didier gaumet <didier.gaumet@gmail.com> - 2021-04-15 10:00 +0200
          Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ... Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-04-15 12:40 +0200
            Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-04-15 14:40 +0200
            Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-04-15 15:00 +0200
              Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ... Albretch Mueller <lbrtchx@gmail.com> - 2021-04-15 20:20 +0200
                Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... didier gaumet <didier.gaumet@gmail.com> - 2021-04-15 21:40 +0200
                Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2021-04-15 21:40 +0200
                  Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ... Albretch Mueller <lbrtchx@gmail.com> - 2021-04-22 22:00 +0200
                    Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-04-22 23:10 +0200
                    Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-04-22 23:10 +0200
                    Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2021-04-23 14:50 +0200
                      Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ... Albretch Mueller <lbrtchx@gmail.com> - 2021-04-23 21:10 +0200
                        Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-04-23 21:50 +0200
                          Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ... Albretch Mueller <lbrtchx@gmail.com> - 2021-04-24 20:50 +0200
                          Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-25 04:00 +0200
                            Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ... Albretch Mueller <lbrtchx@gmail.com> - 2021-04-27 10:00 +0200
                              Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2021-04-28 23:10 +0200
                                Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ... Albretch Mueller <lbrtchx@gmail.com> - 2021-04-29 15:10 +0200
                                  Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2021-04-29 15:20 +0200
                                  Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ... rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-04-29 17:40 +0200
                                    Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-04-29 21:30 +0200
                                  Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2021-05-01 01:00 +0200
                                    [OFFTOPIC] Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ... Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-05-01 01:20 +0200
                                      Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected;  subordinated MSI disabled ... David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-05-01 06:50 +0200
                        Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2021-04-28 23:00 +0200
                    Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2021-04-29 01:20 +0200
                      Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled  ... Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-04-29 03:50 +0200
                      Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ... Albretch Mueller <lbrtchx@gmail.com> - 2021-04-29 22:40 +0200
                        OT: alpha-offset format (was Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected;  subordinated MSI disabled ...) davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2021-05-01 01:40 +0200

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#234164 — pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

 is the error message I get when I try to start a PC based on an MSI
motherboard, with both Debian live an Knoppix (which is a bit more
flexible about start up options)

 How can I get passed that error in order to be able to use and
install Debian live or Knoppix?

I have tried a number of options such as acpi=off combined with some
other ones as well as read the MSI-HOWTO.txt

 https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/v2.6.28/source/Documentation/PCI/MSI-HOWTO.txt

 on which they talk about "MSI quirks" on chapter 6th, but I can't see
the relationship with booting Debian Live, so I I haven't been able to
fix that problem.

 lbrtchx

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#234165 — Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

On Wed 14 Apr 2021 at 11:26:53 (-0400), Albretch Mueller wrote:
>  is the error message I get when I try to start a PC based on an MSI
> motherboard, with both Debian live an Knoppix (which is a bit more
> flexible about start up options)
> 
>  How can I get passed that error in order to be able to use and
> install Debian live or Knoppix?
> 
> I have tried a number of options such as acpi=off combined with some
> other ones as well as read the MSI-HOWTO.txt
> 
>  https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/v2.6.28/source/Documentation/PCI/MSI-HOWTO.txt
> 
>  on which they talk about "MSI quirks" on chapter 6th, but I can't see
> the relationship with booting Debian Live, so I I haven't been able to
> fix that problem.

You could try disabling what you can in the BIOS to see if you can
boot. Then restore things one by one. That worked for someone—their
problem was caused by USB Legacy Emulation being enabled.

Cheers,
David.

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#234172 — Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

Hello,

I think that this error message is not about MSI-the-manufacturer but 
that here MSI stands for Message Signaled Interrupt:
  https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/PCI/msi-howto.html

You could then try to boot with the pci=nomsi boot parameter to see if 
your PC boots properly. But there is a chance that this message is an 
information message about a step of the boot procédure that just has 
been succesful and that the problematic step that freezes your computer 
is the next one...

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#234178

> You could then try to boot with the pci=nomsi boot parameter ...

 if I boot up passing to the kernel the start up option:

 knoppix64 debug pci=nomsi noapic

 I would get just two lines further bellow:

 pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled
 PCI Interrupt Link [LNKA] enabled at IRQ 11
 PCI: setting IRQ 11 as level-triggered

 and the boot process would stop.

> there is a chance that this message is an information message about a step of the boot procédure that just has been successful and that the problematic step that freezes your computer is the next one...

 is there a way for me to know what the next step would be? The kernel
boot up logs should be " (do)ing ....", "... ok"

 I know the boot process is different for each motherboard, a bit of
googling gave me:

 http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=47164

[ ...] ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKA] enabled at IRQ 11
[ ...] ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:11.1[A] -> Link [LNKA] -> GSI 11
(level, low) -> IRQ 11
[ ...] VIA_IDE 0000:00:11.1: VIA VLink IRQ fixup, from 255 to 11
[ ...] VP_IDE: not 100% native mode: will probe irqs later

 so the problem might be related to the video card?

 I also found this message at an ubuntu forum:

 https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2202279

 Re: New PC, cannot install Ubuntu (pci 0000:00:01.0: MSI quirk detected)

    Oldfred, I want to thank you for your tireless effort to help me
with resolving this issue. I am very grateful that people like you are
available to the community to support noobs like myself

    I am posting this from my new Xubuntu install, so it seems we
finally managed to get things working!!!

    Here is a recap from the steps I took that (I think) lead to the resolution:
    - (Obviously) go through the posts provided by Oldfred, tried out
several options
    - I found some info pointing towards USB legacy support and MSI quirk
    - Disabled legacy support in my BIOS
    - Got that Checking NVRAM error
    - Reset my CMOS (through the jumper setting described in my
motherboard manual)
    - Disabled legacy support again, checked some other BIOS settings
to make sure they are what they were before resetting the CMOS
    - Set my CD/DVD up as primary boot device (in BIOS)
    - Used a (X)Ubuntu installation CD instead of a USB (as legacy
support is now disabled)
    - Up till this point I still had that Checking NVRAM error at POST.
    - Almost went out to buy a new motherboard, gave it one more try
by unplugging my USB keyboard and mouse, booting with Xubuntu
installation CD (12.04.3 LTS)
    - BINGO! Installation starts!!!
    - During installation, plug back in my USB keyboard and mouse
    - Let it complete
    - Restart is needed in order to complete installation
    - Had some more issues after that with keyboard not working in GRUB menu
    - Somehow magically ended up in my BIOS again (by using the DEL
key during boot)
    - Enabled USB legacy support
    - Reboot
    - Finally able to have Xubuntu boot again, login, install latest
updates, working instllation!

    I am hoping that I described all this in enough detail so that it
can help others with similar issues.

    In the end it seems that when you get that MSI quirk error,
disabling USB legacy support in your BIOS goes a long way. That
Checking NVRAM error is (or looks to be) because you still have USB
devices plugged in when USB legacy support is disabled.

    So resetting the CMOS may not have been necessary after all. I did
not have a PS/2 keyboard/mouse available, but probably disabling
legacy USB support in the BIOS and using PS/2 keyboard+mouse would
have worked directly.
~
 but I very much doubt that MSI could be in business requiring so much
work for regular folks out there.

 I will keep a log here about how I solved that problem in order to
help people running into the same hurdle

 lbrtchx

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#234187 — Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

Le 15/04/2021 à 02:29, Albretch Mueller a écrit :

>   if I boot up passing to the kernel the start up option:
> 
>   knoppix64 debug pci=nomsi noapic
> 
>   I would get just two lines further bellow:
> 
>   pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled
>   PCI Interrupt Link [LNKA] enabled at IRQ 11
>   PCI: setting IRQ 11 as level-triggered
> 
>   and the boot process would stop.
> 
>   is there a way for me to know what the next step would be? The kernel
> boot up logs should be " (do)ing ....", "... ok"
[...]

Hello Albretch,

I do not know if there is a way to deduce what the next step is in the 
boot process of a particular hardware. And with systemd, the boot 
procedure is parallelized

I am afraid I have no tried and easy solution to propose to you

I do not know what you motherboard is and how old it is.

What I suggest would be to investigate if your BIOS or UEFI has 
particular settings for PCI and try to adapt them to the hardware 
present and the OS installed/to be installed.

As a further measure, you could try to play with the different kernel 
parameters to see if there is an improvement:
  https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.14/admin-guide/kernel-parameters.html

concerned parameters could be:
- *debug* (to increase the level on information you get at boot, but I 
doubt it alittle because the Debian kernel is not built with all debug 
options in order to be quicker at runtime)
- *irq* (whith the nomsi option, the system would, it seems, be in irq mode)
- *acpi*
- *bios* (to try to forbid the bios to be called by the OS to determine 
how to call MSI/IRQ)
- *pci* and *pcie*

As with Knoppix, you can pass a kernel option to the boot in Debian by 
hitting "e" key at boot to edit the command line to launch the kernel

Good luck :-)

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#234189

On Thursday 15 April 2021 03:50:19 didier gaumet wrote:

> Le 15/04/2021 à 02:29, Albretch Mueller a écrit :
> >   if I boot up passing to the kernel the start up option:
> >
> >   knoppix64 debug pci=nomsi noapic
> >
> >   I would get just two lines further bellow:
> >
> >   pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled
> >   PCI Interrupt Link [LNKA] enabled at IRQ 11
> >   PCI: setting IRQ 11 as level-triggered
> >
> >   and the boot process would stop.
> >
> >   is there a way for me to know what the next step would be? The
> > kernel boot up logs should be " (do)ing ....", "... ok"
>
> [...]
>
> Hello Albretch,
>
> I do not know if there is a way to deduce what the next step is in the
> boot process of a particular hardware. And with systemd, the boot
> procedure is parallelized
>
> I am afraid I have no tried and easy solution to propose to you
>
> I do not know what you motherboard is and how old it is.
>
> What I suggest would be to investigate if your BIOS or UEFI has
> particular settings for PCI and try to adapt them to the hardware
> present and the OS installed/to be installed.
>
> As a further measure, you could try to play with the different kernel
> parameters to see if there is an improvement:
>  
> https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.14/admin-guide/kernel-parameters.ht
>ml
>
> concerned parameters could be:
> - *debug* (to increase the level on information you get at boot, but I
> doubt it alittle because the Debian kernel is not built with all debug
> options in order to be quicker at runtime)
> - *irq* (whith the nomsi option, the system would, it seems, be in irq
> mode) - *acpi*
> - *bios* (to try to forbid the bios to be called by the OS to
> determine how to call MSI/IRQ)
> - *pci* and *pcie*
>
> As with Knoppix, you can pass a kernel option to the boot in Debian by
> hitting "e" key at boot to edit the command line to launch the kernel
>
> Good luck :-)

Or you could do what I did after fighting with an msi board for several 
years a decade back, feed it to the trash can and replace it with an ARK 
shoebox w/intel atom D-525-MW motherboad that was just enough power to 
get the job done, and Just Worked for a decade. But just in the last 90 
days has been replaced with a stack of Dell 7010's with i5 cpu's, off 
lease stuff for $150/copy. Much faster stuff, and makes 4 of the 6 
running in my farm identical. Simplifies things quite a bit.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#234196 — Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 06:30:41AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 15 April 2021 03:50:19 didier gaumet wrote:
> 
> > Le 15/04/2021 à 02:29, Albretch Mueller a écrit :
> > >   if I boot up passing to the kernel the start up option:
> > >
> > >   knoppix64 debug pci=nomsi noapic
> > >
> > >   I would get just two lines further bellow:
> > >
> > >   pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled
> > >   PCI Interrupt Link [LNKA] enabled at IRQ 11
> > >   PCI: setting IRQ 11 as level-triggered
> > >
> > >   and the boot process would stop.
> > >
> > >   is there a way for me to know what the next step would be? The
> > > kernel boot up logs should be " (do)ing ....", "... ok"
> >

Hello Albretch

Are you still subject to constraints in what you can do with your hardware: I 
know a while back in other threads on this mailing list you said that you had
to use virtual machines / live disks.

Is this a desktop / laptop and do you have the ability to change whatever
settings you need?

All the very best, as ever,

Andy C.


> > [...]
> >
> > Hello Albretch,
> >
> > I do not know if there is a way to deduce what the next step is in the
> > boot process of a particular hardware. And with systemd, the boot
> > procedure is parallelized
> >
> > I am afraid I have no tried and easy solution to propose to you
> >
> > I do not know what you motherboard is and how old it is.
> >
> > What I suggest would be to investigate if your BIOS or UEFI has
> > particular settings for PCI and try to adapt them to the hardware
> > present and the OS installed/to be installed.
> >
> > As a further measure, you could try to play with the different kernel
> > parameters to see if there is an improvement:
> >  
> > https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.14/admin-guide/kernel-parameters.ht
> >ml
> >
> > concerned parameters could be:
> > - *debug* (to increase the level on information you get at boot, but I
> > doubt it alittle because the Debian kernel is not built with all debug
> > options in order to be quicker at runtime)
> > - *irq* (whith the nomsi option, the system would, it seems, be in irq
> > mode) - *acpi*
> > - *bios* (to try to forbid the bios to be called by the OS to
> > determine how to call MSI/IRQ)
> > - *pci* and *pcie*
> >
> > As with Knoppix, you can pass a kernel option to the boot in Debian by
> > hitting "e" key at boot to edit the command line to launch the kernel
> >
> > Good luck :-)
> 
> Or you could do what I did after fighting with an msi board for several 
> years a decade back, feed it to the trash can and replace it with an ARK 
> shoebox w/intel atom D-525-MW motherboad that was just enough power to 
> get the job done, and Just Worked for a decade. But just in the last 90 
> days has been replaced with a stack of Dell 7010's with i5 cpu's, off 
> lease stuff for $150/copy. Much faster stuff, and makes 4 of the 6 
> running in my farm identical. Simplifies things quite a bit.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> 

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#234199 — Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

Gene Heskett wrote: 
> 
> Or you could do what I did after fighting with an msi board for several 
> years a decade back, feed it to the trash can and replace it with an ARK 


MSI the motherboard manufacturer has nothing to do with the 
PCI feature we are discussing here.

https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/PCI/msi-howto.html

-dsr-

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#234207

> What I suggest would be to investigate if your BIOS or UEFI has particular settings for PCI and try
> to adapt them to the hardware present and the OS installed/to be installed.

> As a further measure, you could try to play with the different kernel parameters to see if there is an
> improvement: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.14/admin-guide/kernel-parameters.html
> concerned parameters could be:
> - *debug* (to increase the level on information you get at boot, but I doubt it alittle because
> the Debian kernel is not built with all debug options in order to be quicker at runtime)
> - *irq* (whith the nomsi option, the system would, it seems, be in irq mode)
> - *acpi*
> - *bios* (to try to forbid the bios to be called by the OS to determine how to call MSI/IRQ)
> - *pci* and *pcie*

> As with Knoppix, you can pass a kernel option to the boot in Debian by hitting "e" key at boot to edit the command line to launch the kernel

 Thank you. I have tried every possible option combination with
knoppix and I have studied reports on similar problems by other
people, but I haven't still been able to make that mobo boot up.

 The problem is that the idiots that designed that motherboard make it
hard for you to get to their BIOS (I haven't even figured out that)
and I haven't been able to find their manual/specs for that board
online (most probably for other reasons)

> Or you could do what I did after fighting with an msi board for
> several years a decade back ...

 I may have too, but I must work under constraints and on a short
budget and I must be hopeful as well ;-).

> Are you still subject to constraints in what you can do
> with your hardware: I know a while back in other threads
> on this mailing list you said that you had to use virtual
> machines / live disks.

 Well, yes. I can only access the internet using live CDs/DVDs
(preferably while using knoppix with the toram option). I have higher
powers actively messing with me. Some people tell me that they "mess
with", monitor everyone that I am just aware and I hate them and their
bs because it messes with my line of work.

 I never effing ever connect my work machine to the Internet. I mean,
noticing my doctor telling me whatever with a computer connected to
the Internet makes me anxious and if you think I am "paranoid" all I
have to say is: "thank you". These times being "paranoid" about such
matters is a healthy state of mind.

 So, live DVDs with some extra scripts to customize things a bit and I
am fine to go.

 I like Debian very much, just using apt in the way that it is
supposed to be used assuming that the Internet is a safe, "trusted"
environment is an odd joke to me. we have had these constant back and
forths in the mailing list. I have even been dreaming about coding a
version of apt based on java (japt?), so that you could go anywhere
with any laptop and get all libraries and etc's, it shouldn't be hard
at all but right now I cannot dedicate time and mind to any other
thing.

>MSI the motherboard manufacturer has nothing to do with the
>PCI feature we are discussing here.

>https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/PCI/msi-howto.html

thank you. it was a confusing coincidence. The thing is that the
motherboard on that box is an:

MSI MS-7641 Ver.3.0 + AMD Athlon II x2 250

 the two links were very good but also "too intertaining" I just need
to get the thing to work for me asap.

lbrtchx

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#234208 — Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

Le 15/04/2021 à 20:14, Albretch Mueller a écrit :
[...]
> and I haven't been able to find their manual/specs for that board
> online (most probably for other reasons)
[...]
> MSI MS-7641 Ver.3.0 + AMD Athlon II x2 250
[...]

the page of this MB support on the MSI website:
  https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/support/760GM-P23-FX#down-bios

the manual:
  https://download.msi.com/archive/mnu_exe/M7641v3.0.zip
(hit <DEL> at boot to access the BIOS)

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#234209 — Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 15.04.2021 23:14, Albretch Mueller wrote:
>> https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/PCI/msi-howto.html
> thank you. it was a confusing coincidence. The thing is that the
> motherboard on that box is an:
>
> MSI MS-7641 Ver.3.0 + AMD Athlon II x2 250
>
>   the two links were very good but also "too intertaining" I just need
> to get the thing to work for me asap.
>
> lbrtchx
>
Have you tried to update BIOS? [1] Patch notes look promising.
For me it's usually a first step of troubleshooting and resolving 
possibly hardware related problems.
If first link doesn't lead to support page for your motherboard, you 
have to find your exact motherboard model using search. [2]
If you flash wrong BIOS image you will brick your motherboard.


[1] https://us.msi.com/Motherboard/support/760GM-P23-FX
[2] https://us.msi.com/search/MS-7641?page=1

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

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#234423

 Debian doesn't stop to amaze me. I have an "old" 2 GiB RAM
MacAirbook1,1 without its hard drive and without internal CMOS timing
and with only one USB port (I wonder what those folks were thinking
about when they designed those laptops).

 A Debian live DVD boots fine from a USB hub, then I go "hwclock --set
..." and do a hot reset (the set time will be kept) and use a USB pen
drive. Knoppix just shows to me a question sign on a light and dark
gray background.

 I will get "married" to Debian (why not? some people would marry
their pets ... ;-)) if it includes the following startup options right
of the live DVD:

 * toram
 * memtest
 * testCD

 In my opinion none of those functions are hard to include at all.

 You can -almost- always go monkey and do that one way or another, but
I would like for Debian to make more official an offline mode for
using apt probably based on java, so that any machine could be used to
download packages to be then installed off-line for those of us who
don't/can't see the Internet as a trusted environment.

 I would also love to see networking taken out of the Linux kernel,
but this is an entirely different, hellishly "political" issue.

 lbrtchx

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#234426 — Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

Albretch Mueller wrote: 
> 
>  I would also love to see networking taken out of the Linux kernel,
> but this is an entirely different, hellishly "political" issue.

You can compile your own kernel with no hardware network
drivers.

-dsr-

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#234428 — Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

Albretch Mueller wrote: 

 
>  You can -almost- always go monkey and do that one way or another, but
> I would like for Debian to make more official an offline mode for
> using apt probably based on java, so that any machine could be used to
> download packages to be then installed off-line for those of us who
> don't/can't see the Internet as a trusted environment.

Why? A web browser will work. 

http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/

Pull the packages you want and save them on your choice of
media, then bring the media over to your off-line box and copy
them over. apt or dpkg can install from the files.

What you lose this way (besides time) is having apt calculate
which supporting packages you need. However, 

https://packages.debian.org

will happily tell you all the dependencies of any given package,
and then you can get all the dependencies of each of those, and 
so on.

-dsr-

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#234451 — Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 22/04/2021 20:53, Albretch Mueller wrote:
[cut]

>  I would also love to see networking taken out of the Linux kernel,
> but this is an entirely different, hellishly "political" issue.
It's not quite the same thing, but you might be able to get what you
want with the Debian HURD port <https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/>.
HURD is a microkernel whereby the kernel only provides the most basic
services and almost all device drivers are implemented in user space.
>
>  lbrtchx
>

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#234475

> What you lose this way (besides time) is having apt calculate
> which supporting packages you need. However,

> https://packages.debian.org

> will happily tell you all the dependencies of any given package,
> and then you can get all the dependencies of each of those, and
> so on.

 yes, and "japt" would scrape those pages or even simulate apt to
figure out all dependencies and then download all the packages you
need to install locally, off line.
~
> You can compile your own kernel with no hardware network
> drivers.

 Yes, you can! (tm), but imagine, just imagine, as JOhn Lennon sang,
that networking would be taken out of the kernel! At times it amazes
me to discuss with you such issues here. What is the point of using
security based on IP tables when the active code/js bs is used to even
probe the keyboard for the passwords you use in case you use the same
one in your off line and on line machines? They have been using js
injection even as part of general societal AI bots.
~
> HURD is a microkernel whereby the kernel only provides the most basic
> services and almost all device drivers are implemented in user space.

 https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/

 https://people.debian.org/~sthibault/failed_packages.txt

 https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/users-guide/using_gnuhurd.html#Networking

 Thanks and networking doesn't seem to have been taken out of the
kernel in HURD. My only question would be would HURD make it easier
somehow? It would be a project to definitely look into.

 lbrtchx

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#234477 — Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

Albretch Mueller wrote: 
> > What you lose this way (besides time) is having apt calculate
> > which supporting packages you need. However,
> 
> > https://packages.debian.org
> 
> > will happily tell you all the dependencies of any given package,
> > and then you can get all the dependencies of each of those, and
> > so on.
> 
>  yes, and "japt" would scrape those pages or even simulate apt to
> figure out all dependencies and then download all the packages you
> need to install locally, off line.

It's a niche need. People who do this at scale keep their own
copies of the entire Debian repository (I do, at work.) People
who do this as one-offs tend not to share your specific needs.


> > You can compile your own kernel with no hardware network
> > drivers.
> 
>  Yes, you can! (tm), but imagine, just imagine, as JOhn Lennon sang,
> that networking would be taken out of the kernel!

... because for almost everyone, it's better in the kernel.


> At times it amazes
> me to discuss with you such issues here. What is the point of using
> security based on IP tables when the active code/js bs is used to even
> probe the keyboard for the passwords you use in case you use the same
> one in your off line and on line machines? They have been using js
> injection even as part of general societal AI bots.

This paragraph made sense up until the word active, and then it
went right off the rails.

You seem to be conflating three different things.

iptables is a firewall mechanism that allows you to reject
unwanted traffic based on properties of IP packets.

If you're running someone else's malicious code, you have lost
your security game already. Don't do that.

"AI" either doesn't exist or has been around for decades,
depending on how you want to define it. Your "they" is
undefined. JavaScript is just a language; there's nothing
special about it that can't be done in Haskell, Forth or
Fortran. Web browsers tend to implement it, but you can also
turn it off altogether -- e.g. I can think of three different
mechanisms that are practical:

Use Firefox with the Disable JavaScript extension.

Use Firefox with ublock Origin and turn off JavaScript
execution.

Use a non-JavaScript equipped browser.

-dsr-

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#234497

>>  Yes, you can! (tm), but imagine, just imagine, as JOhn Lennon sang,
>> that networking would be taken out of the kernel!

>... because for almost everyone, it's better in the kernel.

 Here we clearly could agree to disagree on the "for almost everyone"
part, the specifics of the adjetive "better" is what I would like to
know more about. In the same way that Linux defines kernel and user
space, it could also define "inet" space with a specific user for whom
networking is accessible a la SELinux ...

>> At times it amazes
>> me to discuss with you such issues here. What is the point of using
>> security based on IP tables when the active code/js bs is used to even
>> probe the keyboard for the passwords you use in case you use the same
>> one in your off line and on line machines? They have been using js
>> injection even as part of general societal AI bots.
>
>This paragraph made sense up until the word active, and then it
>went right off the rails.
>
>You seem to be conflating three different things.
>
>iptables is a firewall mechanism that allows you to reject
>unwanted traffic based on properties of IP packets.

 Well, yes, but IP tables are the easy, unimportant part when it comes
to hacking by government sponsored perpetrators, including your
Internet provider. These days there is no relevant difference
whatsoever between the NSAs of the world and IT companies.

>"AI" either doesn't exist or has been around for decades,
>depending on how you want to define it.

 Well, we agree on that to me AI is some bsing pretentious nonsense,
but the NSAs of the world have real-time, click by click access
patterns of every individual of entire societies, to which they apply
Bayesian networks to correlate it intra and intertextually (across
individuals) ... they notice "you are saying something that you
shouldn't be saying" (tm) and your off line and on line life will get
very "interesting" (to put it somehow)

 I know it would sound to anyone with some senses spared like stupid
random bs, but they ran me out of the U.S. because they are using
regular people for social control experiments in an MK-Ultra kind of
way, making them believe that they were "reading their mind" (based on
all the data they gather about every single one of us). They even made
that Phillipino president that "God had talked to him". People,
actually wholeheartedly believed such bs. We are talking here about
University professors, ex CIA agents and military personnel, retirees,
with no previous mental illness of any kind not even in their
families, who all of a sudden became schizophrenics in their early
60's (something never heard of and without an explanation
scientifically, neurobiologically) ... people would hear non-stop a
fully, naturally sounding voice (or various voices, they did that bs
to me a few times, but I could tell it was delivered and they stopped)
telling them for example that they had forgotten to take their car
keys once again and teasing them as they looked for them, or that
their spouse was having sex right now with someone else and giving
them their telephone # to call ... most people have committed suicide
and/or gone into their homicidal rampages so common in the U.S. Non of
those "targeted individuals" could make sense of why that was
"happening" to them. You hear the voices tormenting you non-stop and
your spouse sleeping right next to you doesn’t.

 I just tried to convince those people that the government could not
read their mind, that they were just using run of the mill techno sh!t
(sensor, their cell phones, all information they consciously or
functionally generate to basically create a doppelgaenger of
themselves ...) to make them believe such nonsense. The FBI/NYPD was
telling me "we are going to have to kill you if you don't stop". The
only way I could make sense of it, is that they needed for people to
believe such bs and talk back to such "voices" as part of their social
control research. The least surface we expose to them the better.

 I know most technical folks tend to be kind of cynical, but my point
is that there is more than IPtables we should be worrying about and we
Mathematicians, scientists and tech monkeys of the world are complicit
in creating the state of affairs I am describing. I think we could do
much better than worrying about ip addresses and such things.

 I talk about such matters because I think it is better when someone
just twits those issue into general consciousness.

> JavaScript is just a language; there's nothing
>special about it that can't be done in Haskell, Forth or
>Fortran. Web browsers tend to implement it, but you can also
>turn it off altogether

 Well many (most? all?) websites including google would not work with
js disabled, so so einfach it is nicht.

 lbrtchx

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#234505 — Re: pci 0000:00:01:0: MSI quirk detected; subordinated MSI disabled ...

On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:43:12 -0400
Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> wrote:

...

> undefined. JavaScript is just a language; there's nothing
> special about it that can't be done in Haskell, Forth or
> Fortran. Web browsers tend to implement it, but you can also
> turn it off altogether -- e.g. I can think of three different
> mechanisms that are practical:
> 
> Use Firefox with the Disable JavaScript extension.
> 
> Use Firefox with ublock Origin and turn off JavaScript
> execution.
> 
> Use a non-JavaScript equipped browser.

Or toggle "javascript.enabled" to false in "about:config" - no
extensions required.

Celejar

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#234545

> Or toggle "javascript.enabled" to false in "about:config" - no
> extensions required.

 the assumption being that you would use, trust firefox. A
well-documented, XML-based open source kind of proxy/gateway through
which all requests are sent and received would work with any browser.
~
 I think, given the options, the suggested idea not to install
networking at all (one of the install options with Linux) wins the
prize; then:

 b) an exposed "inet" user for the session should be defined with a
RAM drive as its home directory;
 c) for whom -exclusively- the network card's device driver should be
installed (is here a hack to install a device driver entirely from
user space? probably, a Debian HURD kind of thing on which the basic
hook for the networking service is exposed and a user space program
would take it from there?);
 d) then all access to the Internet go through a client proxy run by "inet";
 e) acting as a squid-like application proxy;
 e.1) parsing all text/html content coming in, first cleansing it into
well-fomed xhtml with some HTML parser, then using XPath, java
Nasshorn, the principles of the Burp Suite + wireshark + page Reader +
...;
 e.1.1) sanitzing the page into alpha-offset format;
 e.1.2) not the received, but a sanitzed, topical, content centric
page with all the distracting "attentional" nonsense removed will be
displayed to the user (page reader on steroids);
 e.1.3) it maintain a local cache of the accessed data (videos, pdf
files, ...) and adjusts all links on the flight to the local paths
(storage space is very cheap, anyway);
 e.1.4) using XPaths of the sanitized page, you would be able to
exactly authorize the java script that you want to let through and
blanket "yeah, sure!" the rest of it, including those bsing "we care
about your privacy" (isn't that the very definition of not having
privacy that other people "care" about it?), "user agreements"
authorization of cookies, right on the proxy ebfore it reaches your
field of view/consciousness with the option of sending bogus
information actively, passively or by request, per site, section of
the page ...;
 e.1.5) cookies, user agent, ... will be managed by the proxy, so
little as possible will be exposed;
 f) based on the request headers the proxy would create a new
folder/jail each time a new domain is accessed (probably even the
option to run macchanger?);
 g) based on the critical XPaths a "processing signature" will be kept
for pages, domains, URL paths frequented;
 h) inet had no access to the PATH or any other local variables or
files, it would only know of its own jail;
 i) many/most/all? applications assume/demand Internet access. All
such access attempts should be logged with traceable information so
that you can inspect what it is "that application was attempting to do
which it shouldn't be doing" (tm);
 j) while shutting down "inet" will permanently save the cookies and
such which matter, the rest will be physically "hasta la vista,
babied" since it was kept in RAM anyway;
 k) that proxy could be used as password jar and could as well work as
agent regularly checking if you've got new or certain kinds of email
...

 These is nothing really "new" in that spec. All the pieces either
exist or their functional requirements can be achieved with
configuration changes. It is assembling of all pieces which matters
and may be problematic.

 Do you know of such previous "paranoid" art?

 Any Linux/debian friendly network firmware you would recommend to
make that project easier?

 Any ideas come to mind? Any hints or death threats you would share?

 lbrtchx

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