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ubuntu/snap future

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  ubuntu/snap future George Shuklin <george.shuklin@gmail.com> - 2021-04-03 18:40 +0200
    Re: ubuntu/snap future "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-04-03 19:00 +0200
    Re: ubuntu/snap future Paul Johnson <baloo@ursamundi.org> - 2021-04-06 02:00 +0200
      Re: ubuntu/snap future Peter Ehlert <peter@sdi-baja.com> - 2021-04-06 03:10 +0200
      Re: ubuntu/snap future Yoann LE BARS <yoann@le-bars.net> - 2021-04-06 11:30 +0200
        Re: ubuntu/snap future Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-04-06 13:50 +0200
          Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-06 14:30 +0200
          ubuntu/snap future riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-04-07 05:30 +0200
            Re: ubuntu/snap future Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-04-07 12:20 +0200
              Re: ubuntu/snap future riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 09:20 +0200
                Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 09:30 +0200
                  Re: ubuntu/snap future riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 11:40 +0200
                    Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 13:00 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-04-09 15:00 +0200
                        Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 15:30 +0200
                    Re: ubuntu/snap future Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 19:50 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-04-09 20:30 +0200
                        Re: ubuntu/snap future George Shuklin <george.shuklin@gmail.com> - 2021-04-10 16:10 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-04-29 02:20 +0200
                  Re: ubuntu/snap future Yoann LE BARS <yoann@le-bars.net> - 2021-04-09 13:10 +0200
                    Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 13:40 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Yoann LE BARS <yoann@le-bars.net> - 2021-04-09 13:50 +0200
                        Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 14:50 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-04-09 15:10 +0200
                            Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 15:40 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-04-09 17:10 +0200
                            Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 19:00 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future Yoann LE BARS <yoann@le-bars.net> - 2021-04-09 18:10 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 19:30 +0200
                        Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 19:30 +0200
                  Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 14:10 +0200
                    Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 15:00 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 15:30 +0200
                        Re: ubuntu/snap future tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-04-09 15:40 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-04-09 15:50 +0200
                            Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 16:20 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2021-04-09 16:20 +0200
                            Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 16:30 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 16:20 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Yoann LE BARS <yoann@le-bars.net> - 2021-04-09 18:20 +0200
                    Re: ubuntu/snap future Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 19:50 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 20:40 +0200
                        Re: ubuntu/snap future Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-04-09 21:40 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 22:10 +0200
                Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 14:10 +0200
          Re: ubuntu/snap future George Shuklin <george.shuklin@gmail.com> - 2021-04-10 16:10 +0200

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#234018

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On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 01:09:31PM +0200, Yoann LE BARS wrote:
> 
> Hello everybody out there!
> 
> On 2021/04/09 at 09:21 am, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > Can you pose one concrete use case where it is unavoidable?
> 
> 	I have found some bugs in Musescore that are corrected on a higher
> version than the one available in stable.
> 
> 	I need some functionalities available in Ardour 6, which is not
> available in stable.

In those cases, would a backport help?

What I try to do is to download the source and try to build it
on stable. Kind of "poor person's backport". Sometimes it "just
works", sometimes the build dependencies are too hard to fulfill.

> > For example: would a more broad availability of backports reduce
> > the need for snaps, flats or how they may be called?
> 
> 	If those two where available in backports, I definitively would use
> these versions.

I see.

> 	Now, I need Discord and the only version which works after an update is
> the one available as a snap.
> 
> 	I have also been asked to use Microsoft Teams. Well, this one never
> really works, either as a deb, a snap or a flatpak…
> 
> 	Concerning the few proprietary softwares I use, I think I rather use
> something like snap or flatpak—I have no preferences, save the fact I
> rather have the possibility to set up y own server.
> 
> 	Now, I have develop a few small applications who do not have much users
> and are not in the position to integrate the distribution. For the few
> users of these programs, it is way easier for them that I give an
> Appimage or a Flatpak.

Those last data points are a bit concerning. It'd be interesting what a
project like Debian could do to mitigate that.

Thanks for the data points!

Cheers
 - t

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#234019

Hello everybody out there!

On 2021/04/09 at 1:39 pm, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
>> 	I have found some bugs in Musescore that are corrected on a higher
>> version than the one available in stable.
>>
>> 	I need some functionalities available in Ardour 6, which is not
>> available in stable.
> 
> In those cases, would a backport help?

	It would.

>> 	Now, I need Discord and the only version which works after an update is
>> the one available as a snap.
>>
>> 	I have also been asked to use Microsoft Teams. Well, this one never
>> really works, either as a deb, a snap or a flatpak…
>>
>> 	Concerning the few proprietary softwares I use, I think I rather use
>> something like snap or flatpak—I have no preferences, save the fact I
>> rather have the possibility to set up y own server.
>>
>> 	Now, I have develop a few small applications who do not have much users
>> and are not in the position to integrate the distribution. For the few
>> users of these programs, it is way easier for them that I give an
>> Appimage or a Flatpak.
> 
> Those last data points are a bit concerning. It'd be interesting what a
> project like Debian could do to mitigate that.

	Concerning my own applications (they use a free licence), really, it is
better not to engage any integration into Debian: it is not worth the
effort nor for me, my users and the distribution. You cannot integrate
an application that is use by something like ten people, including the
developer. Also, some of them use Open Suze …

	Concerning proprietary applications, I am afraid editors are not really
willing to collaborate. Clearly, they want to to everything by their self.

	Best regards.

-- 
Yoann LE BARS
https://le-bars.net/yoann/
Diaspora* : ylebars@framasphere.org

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#234022

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On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 01:48:44PM +0200, Yoann LE BARS wrote:

[...]

> 	Concerning my own applications (they use a free licence), really, it is
> better not to engage any integration into Debian: it is not worth the
> effort nor for me, my users and the distribution. You cannot integrate
> an application that is use by something like ten people, including the
> developer. Also, some of them use Open Suze …

Hm. Myself, i have one small application "out there" for just one customer
(Gtk2, C, GPL3+, although it has more ideological than practical value,
since it is really tailor-made to fit). I actually went all the way to
wrap proper Debian packaging around it. Nowadays it's a charm, because
I can leverage all of the Debian goodness (you want a port to Raspi?
No problem, just cross-build. You want it running on that old Squeeze
box [hey, didn't I tell you to upgrade?] -- cross-build again).

But that only really works out when the customer is nearly all-Debian,
which this one is.

> 	Concerning proprietary applications, I am afraid editors are not really
> willing to collaborate. Clearly, they want to to everything by their self.

Of course: they will collaborate whenever it's convenient to them
(the "embrace" phase). For example, Zoom does offer Debian packages.
Would I install that? No way! I'd prefer the browser version, and
I'll use a fresh, separate profile, and at the end, I'll soak that
profile with gasoline and put a match to it (well, OK, maybe just
"rm -Rf" might do ;-)

But I'll bitch and moan loudly to my interlocutor. Perhaps I'll
lie and say that I've got just a telephone or something.

Cheers
 - t

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#234026

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 14:45:31 +0200
<tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 01:48:44PM +0200, Yoann LE BARS wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > 	Concerning my own applications (they use a free licence),
> > really, it is better not to engage any integration into Debian: it
> > is not worth the effort nor for me, my users and the distribution.
> > You cannot integrate an application that is use by something like
> > ten people, including the developer. Also, some of them use Open
> > Suze …  
> 
> Hm. Myself, i have one small application "out there" for just one
> customer (Gtk2, C, GPL3+, although it has more ideological than
> practical value, since it is really tailor-made to fit). I actually
> went all the way to wrap proper Debian packaging around it. Nowadays
> it's a charm, because I can leverage all of the Debian goodness (you
> want a port to Raspi? No problem, just cross-build. You want it
> running on that old Squeeze box [hey, didn't I tell you to upgrade?]
> -- cross-build again).
> 
> But that only really works out when the customer is nearly all-Debian,
> which this one is.
> 

There's a lot to be said for web applications, particularly when so
many people use toy computers. In my house, there are Windows and Linux
computers, two Androids and an iPad (not mine). I can operate my juke
box and other software from any of them.

Once you're running an SQL server 24/7, it's by far the easiest way to
go. And my feeble little netbook has no trouble running MariaDB and
Apache with PHP7 for out-of-network operation. I wasn't able to persuade
an Android device to do that, even though the ports are available.

-- 
Joe

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#234031

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On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 02:07:33PM +0100, Joe wrote:

[...]

> There's a lot to be said for web applications [...]

Not my cup of tea. As a user, I downright *hate* them. As a devel
(I'm currently working on such a PHP/Javascript nightmare myself),
I pity the users.

But there must be cup-of-teas for everyone :)

Cheers
 - t

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#234042

> But I'll bitch and moan loudly to my interlocutor.

Good.

> Perhaps I'll lie and say that I've got just a telephone or something.

Better not: better tell them clearly why you refuse to use that tool.
We have a duty to educate, I think.


        Stefan

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#234047

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On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 11:01:13AM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > But I'll bitch and moan loudly to my interlocutor.
> 
> Good.
> 
> > Perhaps I'll lie and say that I've got just a telephone or something.
> 
> Better not: better tell them clearly why you refuse to use that tool.

I forgot the tongue-in-cheek ;-P

But people already put an incredulous look when I say I have no
smartphone. Perhaps I'm considered a "computer guy", dunno why.
I often have to whip up my dumbphone to prove it ;-)

> We have a duty to educate, I think.

That's basically what I try.

Cheers
 - t

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#234043

Hello everybody out there!

On 2021/04/09 at 2:45 pm, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> But that only really works out when the customer is nearly all-Debian,
> which this one is.

	Like I said: not all the users are on Debian.

	Best regards.

-- 
Yoann LE BARS
https://le-bars.net/yoann/
Diaspora* : ylebars@framasphere.org

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#234048

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On Vi, 09 apr 21, 13:39:27, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 01:09:31PM +0200, Yoann LE BARS wrote:
> > 
> > 	Now, I have develop a few small applications who do not have much users
> > and are not in the position to integrate the distribution. For the few
> > users of these programs, it is way easier for them that I give an
> > Appimage or a Flatpak.
> 
> Those last data points are a bit concerning. It'd be interesting what a
> project like Debian could do to mitigate that.

Make packaging easier?

As far as I understand dh is pretty good and many packages can get away 
with a minimal debian/rules.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#234049

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On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 08:23:59PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Vi, 09 apr 21, 13:39:27, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 01:09:31PM +0200, Yoann LE BARS wrote:
> > > 
> > > 	Now, I have develop a few small applications who do not have much users
> > > and are not in the position to integrate the distribution. For the few
> > > users of these programs, it is way easier for them that I give an
> > > Appimage or a Flatpak.
> > 
> > Those last data points are a bit concerning. It'd be interesting what a
> > project like Debian could do to mitigate that.
> 
> Make packaging easier?
> 
> As far as I understand dh is pretty good and many packages can get away 
> with a minimal debian/rules.

Yay for dh, yes. But there's some learning curve, nevertheless.

Cheers
 - t

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#234021

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 09:21:49 +0200
<tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 04:15:07AM -0300, riveravaldez wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Trying to decide which is less-worse in a scenario of unavoidable
> > use of some of these.
> 
> Is it really unavoidable? Or just a tad less convenient?
> 
> Can you pose one concrete use case where it is unavoidable?

What about cases where the software simply isn't in Debian at all?
Recently, I've used IntelliJ IDEA and Android Studio, and I'd like to
set up an OwnCloud server when I get a chance. These, and many other
complex / fast-changing applications aren't in Debian, but are
available in containerized app formats.

Some are also available in deb packages from upstream, but I'm not sure
which is worse: installing a random deb from upstream, or a
containerized version of the app. The deb will / may rely upon system
libraries and other dependencies, which is good, insofar as everything
works, but it will also have more of a chance to mess with the system
(even if only accidentally).

Celejar

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#234023

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On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 08:02:46AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 09:21:49 +0200
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

[...]

> > Can you pose one concrete use case where it is unavoidable?
> 
> What about cases where the software simply isn't in Debian at all?
> Recently, I've used IntelliJ IDEA and Android Studio [...]

I see. I'm more of an Emacs guy, so I lack some experience in
that department, I admit.

> and I'd like to
> set up an OwnCloud server when I get a chance.

Why not NextCloud? It seems that it is there where the action is
taking place these days.

> These, and many other
> complex / fast-changing applications aren't in Debian, but are
> available in containerized app formats.

Yes, fast-changing is a bad match for the "classical distro" model.

I still love the classical distro model: a stable base which doesn't
move too quickly (and thus doesn't require much of my attention),
which is well-vetted by maintainers (*thank you so much*), and a
couple of apps I particularly care about which I do build myself
from time to time.

I understand that my "model" won't be everyone's, though.

That's why I asked for other people's experiences.

Cheers
 - t

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#234028

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 14:51:29 +0200
<tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 08:02:46AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 09:21:49 +0200
> > <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > Can you pose one concrete use case where it is unavoidable?
> > 
> > What about cases where the software simply isn't in Debian at all?
> > Recently, I've used IntelliJ IDEA and Android Studio [...]
> 
> I see. I'm more of an Emacs guy, so I lack some experience in
> that department, I admit.
> 
> > and I'd like to
> > set up an OwnCloud server when I get a chance.
> 
> Why not NextCloud? It seems that it is there where the action is
> taking place these days.

Sorry, I meant NextCloud - I sometimes forget which was the original
and which is the later and greater version. I suppose that the word
"next" should make it easy to remember ;)

> > These, and many other
> > complex / fast-changing applications aren't in Debian, but are
> > available in containerized app formats.
> 
> Yes, fast-changing is a bad match for the "classical distro" model.
> 
> I still love the classical distro model: a stable base which doesn't
> move too quickly (and thus doesn't require much of my attention),
> which is well-vetted by maintainers (*thank you so much*), and a
> couple of apps I particularly care about which I do build myself
> from time to time.

I fully agree, but the fact is that some really useful software just
doesn't fit into the classic distro model. In addition to the examples
I've given, there are also the main FLOSS Zoom alternatives we've
discussed in previous threads: Jitsi, BigBlueButton, etc.

> I understand that my "model" won't be everyone's, though.
> 
> That's why I asked for other people's experiences.

Celejar

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#234030

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On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 09:28:15AM -0400, Celejar wrote:

[...]

> Sorry, I meant NextCloud

I see. I kept myself confusing those two for a while.

AFAIK it's packaged in Debian? Too old?

> > I still love the classical distro model [...]

> I fully agree, but the fact is that some really useful software just
> doesn't fit into the classic distro model. In addition to the examples
> I've given, there are also the main FLOSS Zoom alternatives we've
> discussed in previous threads: Jitsi, BigBlueButton, etc.

Yeah. Those are said to be The Horrors, by people who tried. But they
ended up just setting up a whole VM off a docker image, so they
ditched Frankenstein and went with Godzilla ;-)

Cheers
 - t

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#234032

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On 2021-04-09 at 09:39, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 09:28:15AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Sorry, I meant NextCloud
> 
> I see. I kept myself confusing those two for a while.
> 
> AFAIK it's packaged in Debian? Too old?

What package are you thinking of?

When I 'apt-cache search nextcloud' against current stable / testing,
all the hits I get seem to be for clients or integration tools or the
like; I don't see anything that looks like a server. (I haven't taken
the trouble to check more generally, via Web interfaces.)

Unless this is currently only in sid (in which case it'd be unlikely to
be too old) and probably won't make it into the upcoming stable release,
it doesn't look to me like it's in Debian.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#234035

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On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 09:43:47AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2021-04-09 at 09:39, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 09:28:15AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> >> Sorry, I meant NextCloud
> > 
> > I see. I kept myself confusing those two for a while.
> > 
> > AFAIK it's packaged in Debian? Too old?
> 
> What package are you thinking of?

Oops. I stand corrected.

Cheers
 - t

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#234036

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On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:39:23 +0200
tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> > Sorry, I meant NextCloud  
> 
> I see. I kept myself confusing those two for a while.
> 
> AFAIK it's packaged in Debian? Too old?

I use the zip package from the NextCloud web site. Once you do the
manual install, it will update itself from time to time. It's no deb
package, but I've had no problems updating. I use the stable update
channel.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#234039

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 08:12:35 -0600
Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:39:23 +0200
> tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > > Sorry, I meant NextCloud  
> > 
> > I see. I kept myself confusing those two for a while.
> > 
> > AFAIK it's packaged in Debian? Too old?
> 
> I use the zip package from the NextCloud web site. Once you do the
> manual install, it will update itself from time to time. It's no deb
> package, but I've had no problems updating. I use the stable update
> channel.

Yes. To be clear, NextCloud offers three official installation methods:

* Archive file / source tarball, which, IIUC, requires you to configure
a LAMP stack yourself (they'll walk you through it, but in my
experience, this sort of thing is always tougher for non-experts than
the directions make it sound)

* Web installer, "the easiest way to install Nextcloud on a web space"

* Appliance, i.e., a pre-built VM, "designed to be an easy way for less
technical users to get Nextcloud up and running or to test it out" (so
perhaps only one level of containerization, not Docker on top of a VM,
as per another part of this thread)

Celejar

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#234038

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:39:23 +0200
tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 09:28:15AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Sorry, I meant NextCloud
> 
> I see. I kept myself confusing those two for a while.
> 
> AFAIK it's packaged in Debian? Too old?

The client is, but the server isn't:

https://wiki.debian.org/Nextcloud#Status_of_packaging

> > > I still love the classical distro model [...]
> 
> > I fully agree, but the fact is that some really useful software just
> > doesn't fit into the classic distro model. In addition to the examples
> > I've given, there are also the main FLOSS Zoom alternatives we've
> > discussed in previous threads: Jitsi, BigBlueButton, etc.
> 
> Yeah. Those are said to be The Horrors, by people who tried. But they
> ended up just setting up a whole VM off a docker image, so they
> ditched Frankenstein and went with Godzilla ;-)

And so we're back to square one: containerization. But now we're up to
at least two levels: VM, Docker, etc. ;)

Celejar

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#234044

	Hello everybody out there!

On 2021/04/09 at 2:51 pm, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> I still love the classical distro model: a stable base which doesn't
> move too quickly (and thus doesn't require much of my attention),
> which is well-vetted by maintainers (*thank you so much*), and a
> couple of apps I particularly care about which I do build myself
> from time to time.
> 
> I understand that my "model" won't be everyone's, though.

	For instance, I have users that are not that familiar with compilation.

	Just some example.

	Best regards.

-- 
Yoann LE BARS
https://le-bars.net/yoann/
Diaspora* : ylebars@framasphere.org

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