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Disk errors ...

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  Disk errors ... Dennis Wicks <wix@mgssub.com> - 2021-01-13 20:10 +0100
    Re: Disk errors ... David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-01-13 23:00 +0100
      Re: Disk errors ... Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2021-01-13 23:40 +0100
        Re: Disk errors ... David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-01-14 00:00 +0100
          Re: Disk errors ... Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2021-01-14 00:00 +0100
            Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ... Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-01-14 00:30 +0100
              Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ... Dennis Wicks <wix@mgssub.com> - 2021-01-14 00:50 +0100
                Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ... Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-01-14 01:10 +0100
                Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ... Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2021-01-14 01:10 +0100
                  Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ... Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2021-01-14 01:30 +0100
                Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ... David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-01-14 01:10 +0100
                Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ... Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-01-14 01:30 +0100
          Re: Disk errors ... Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2021-01-14 00:20 +0100
            Re: Disk errors ... Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2021-01-14 01:20 +0100
            Re: Disk errors ... Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-01-14 10:10 +0100
            Re: Disk errors ... Dominique Dumont <dod@debian.org> - 2021-01-17 12:50 +0100
      Re: Disk errors ... Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-01-14 00:40 +0100
      Re: Disk errors ... David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-01-14 01:10 +0100
      Re: Disk errors ... Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2021-01-14 01:20 +0100
    Re: Disk errors ... Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2021-01-14 18:00 +0100
      Re: Disk errors ... Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2021-01-14 18:10 +0100
        Re: Disk errors ... Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2021-01-14 18:50 +0100
          Re: Disk errors ... Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2021-01-14 19:00 +0100

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#230619 — Disk errors ...

Greetings;

I am getting very frequent disk errors and I can't figure 
out which drive they are occurring on. I get two messages:

> [174384.704895] sata_sil 0000:05:00.0: Event logged [IO_PAGE_FAULT domain=0x0000 address=0x00000000cf99c100 flags=0x0000]

> [174384.705153] AMD-Vi: Event logged [IO_PAGE_FAULT device=05:00.0 domain=0x0000 address=0x00000000df853000 flags=0x0000]

Several of each of them occur at once, every few seconds.
Is there any way that I can figure out which drive is 
causing the problem?

Many TIA!
Dennis

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#230627

On 2021-01-13 11:07, Dennis Wicks wrote:
> Greetings;
> 
> I am getting very frequent disk errors and I can't figure out which 
> drive they are occurring on. I get two messages:
> 
>> [174384.704895] sata_sil 0000:05:00.0: Event logged [IO_PAGE_FAULT 
>> domain=0x0000 address=0x00000000cf99c100 flags=0x0000]
> 
>> [174384.705153] AMD-Vi: Event logged [IO_PAGE_FAULT device=05:00.0 
>> domain=0x0000 address=0x00000000df853000 flags=0x0000]
> 
> Several of each of them occur at once, every few seconds.
> Is there any way that I can figure out which drive is causing the problem?

If you have any red SATA cables, replace them with new black SATA 6 Gbps 
cables with locking connectors.  (I use Cable Matters cables.)


Download the manufacturer diagnostic utility for whatever brand disk(s) 
you own and run it.  I prefer tools that run on bootable media (e.g. USB 
flash drive); Windows may be required.


David

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#230629

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 01:55:37PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:
>On 2021-01-13 11:07, Dennis Wicks wrote:
>>I am getting very frequent disk errors and I can't figure out which 
>>drive they are occurring on. I get two messages:
>>
>>>[174384.704895] sata_sil 0000:05:00.0: Event logged [IO_PAGE_FAULT 
>>>domain=0x0000 address=0x00000000cf99c100 flags=0x0000]
>>
>>>[174384.705153] AMD-Vi: Event logged [IO_PAGE_FAULT device=05:00.0 
>>>domain=0x0000 address=0x00000000df853000 flags=0x0000]

05:00.0 is a PCI address--look at lspci output (first column) to see 
what device it's associated with. This is *not* anything to do with a 
disk, it's an issue between the SATA controller and the CPU, not between 
the SATA controller and the disk. What kernel are you running and what 
CPU/motherboard?

>If you have any red SATA cables, replace them with new black SATA 6 

Make sure you wear a beaded neckless while doing that under a full moon.

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#230632

On 2021-01-13 14:34, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 01:55:37PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:

>> If you have any red SATA cables, replace them with new black SATA 6 
> 
> Make sure you wear a beaded neckless while doing that under a full moon.

I used to think "a cable is a cable, color does not matter", but I have 
experienced many storage hardware issues over the years that were caused 
by red SATA cables.  Other readers on this list have had similar 
experiences.  The explanation is chemistry -- the red dye slowly 
corrodes the conductors and/or contacts.  Since replacing all of my red 
SATA cables with black locking 6 Gbps SATA cables, all of my storage 
hardware issues have been due to failed HDD's.


David

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#230633

On 13/01/2021 22:53, David Christensen wrote:
> On 2021-01-13 14:34, Michael Stone wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 01:55:37PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:
>
>>> If you have any red SATA cables, replace them with new black SATA 6 
>>
>> Make sure you wear a beaded neckless while doing that under a full moon.
>
> I used to think "a cable is a cable, color does not matter", but I 
> have experienced many storage hardware issues over the years that were 
> caused by red SATA cables.  Other readers on this list have had 
> similar experiences.  The explanation is chemistry -- the red dye 
> slowly corrodes the conductors and/or contacts.
Very interesting, if true, and I'm not saying it isn't. I too have had  
cable problems with those thin red efforts but put it down to them not 
being of the locking variety or just bad quality.

Mike.
-- 

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#230637 — Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ...

Michael Howard composed on 2021-01-13 22:57 (UTC):

> David Christensen wrote:

>> Michael Stone wrote:

>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 01:55:37PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:

>>>> If you have any red SATA cables, replace them with new black SATA 6 

>>> Make sure you wear a beaded neckless while doing that under a full moon.

>> I used to think "a cable is a cable, color does not matter", but I 
>> have experienced many storage hardware issues over the years that were 
>> caused by red SATA cables.  Other readers on this list have had 
>> similar experiences.  The explanation is chemistry -- the red dye 
>> slowly corrodes the conductors and/or contacts.

> Very interesting, if true, and I'm not saying it isn't. I too have had

It's been posted time and again in various forums. IME the problem seems to be
limited to a more or less crimson or wild cherry shade of red:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1426/0052/products/reds_0246cf19-67e7-4e1e-93d7-ef51f4cb3d8a_2000x.png?v=1601311774

> cable problems with those thin red efforts but put it down to them not 
> being of the locking variety or just bad quality.
Dye that causes corrosion == bad quality. :)
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
	is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#230640 — Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ...

Felix Miata wrote on 1/13/21 5:21 PM:
> Michael Howard composed on 2021-01-13 22:57 (UTC):
> 
>> David Christensen wrote:
> 
>>> Michael Stone wrote:
> 
>>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 01:55:37PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:
> 
>>>>> If you have any red SATA cables, replace them with new black SATA 6
> 
>>>> Make sure you wear a beaded neckless while doing that under a full moon.
> 
>>> I used to think "a cable is a cable, color does not matter", but I
>>> have experienced many storage hardware issues over the years that were
>>> caused by red SATA cables.  Other readers on this list have had
>>> similar experiences.  The explanation is chemistry -- the red dye
>>> slowly corrodes the conductors and/or contacts.
> 
>> Very interesting, if true, and I'm not saying it isn't. I too have had
> 
> It's been posted time and again in various forums. IME the problem seems to be
> limited to a more or less crimson or wild cherry shade of red:
> https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1426/0052/products/reds_0246cf19-67e7-4e1e-93d7-ef51f4cb3d8a_2000x.png?v=1601311774
> 
>> cable problems with those thin red efforts but put it down to them not
>> being of the locking variety or just bad quality.
> Dye that causes corrosion == bad quality. :)
> 

Well, this is all very interesting! I have *two* 
SATALink/SATARaid expansion cards and neither of them have 
any red cables! They are at pci addresses 05:00 and 05:01! 
How do I tell which is which?

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#230642 — Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ...

On Wednesday 13 January 2021 18:46:03 Dennis Wicks wrote:

> Spam detection software, running on the system "coyote.coyote.den",
> has identified this incoming email as possible spam.  The original
> message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
> similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
> the administrator of that system for details.
>
> Content preview:  Felix Miata wrote on 1/13/21 5:21 PM: > Michael
> Howard composed on 2021-01-13 22:57 (UTC): > >> David Christensen
> wrote: > >>> Michael Stone wrote: > >>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at
> 01:55:37PM -0800, Dav [...]
>
> Content analysis details:   (5.7 points, 5.0 required)
>
>  pts rule name              description
> ---- ----------------------
> -------------------------------------------------- 0.8 BAYES_50       
>        BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.4277]
>  0.0 SPF_NONE               SPF: sender does not publish an SPF Record
>  0.2 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level
>                             mail domains are different
>  0.8 RDNS_NONE              Delivered to internal network by a host
> with no rDNS 2.3 FSL_HELO_BARE_IP_1     No description available.
> -1.0 MAILING_LIST_MULTI     Multiple indicators imply a widely-seen
> list manager
> -0.0 NICE_REPLY_A           Looks like a legit reply (A)
>  2.5 SHOPIFY_IMG_NOT_RCVD_SFY Shopify hosted image but message not
>                             from Shopify

Probably the cable sockets on the cards are labeled sata-0 and sata-1
And please turn off the html.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#230643 — Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ...

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 05:46:03PM -0600, Dennis Wicks wrote:
>Well, this is all very interesting! I have *two* SATALink/SATARaid 
>expansion cards and neither of them have any red cables! They are at 
>pci addresses 05:00 and 05:01! How do I tell which is which?

Pull one out. :-)

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#230648 — Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ...

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 07:03:54PM -0500, Michael Stone wrote:
>On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 05:46:03PM -0600, Dennis Wicks wrote:
>>Well, this is all very interesting! I have *two* SATALink/SATARaid 
>>expansion cards and neither of them have any red cables! They are at 
>>pci addresses 05:00 and 05:01! How do I tell which is which?
>
>Pull one out. :-)

Sorry, couldn't resist, then didn't finish sending. If you 
ls -l /sys/block
you should see your disk device names (sda etc) as symlinks to device 
paths. The last XXXX:XX:XX.X element before something like ata1 should 
correspond to the lspci output (so probably 0000:05:00.0 and 
0000:05:01.0). If you know what disks are on what controller that will 
answer your question. 

cat /sys/block/DEVICENAME/device/wwid
(where DEVICENAME is something like sda) will usually have the serial 
number as the last part, which can help identifying disks. 

If it's doing hardware raid then there's going to be a more 
device-specific answer.

FYI, pulling one out probably won't actually help because they'll 
renumber.

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#230644 — Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ...

On 2021-01-13 15:46, Dennis Wicks wrote:

> Well, this is all very interesting! I have *two* SATALink/SATARaid 
> expansion cards and neither of them have any red cables! 

Okay.  Are you confident the cables are good?


> They are at pci 
> addresses 05:00 and 05:01! How do I tell which is which?

Do you have a way to correlate HBA/RAID card PCI address to a particular 
drive?  Perhaps via dmesg(1)?  If so, you could use smartctl(8) to get 
the make, model, and serial numbers for your drives and trace the cables 
back to identify the HBA/RAID cards.


David

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#230650 — Re: old red cables cause Disk errors ...

Dennis Wicks composed on 2021-01-13 18:46 (UTC-0500):

>  I have *two* 
> SATALink/SATARaid expansion cards and neither of them have 
> any red cables! They are at pci addresses 05:00 and 05:01! 
> How do I tell which is which?

With similar devices on the same bus, that closer to the CPU tends to have the
lower address. Serial numbers tend to be the best way to tell via software, if the
serials on the devices are known or accessible.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
	is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#230635

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 02:53:58PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:
>I used to think "a cable is a cable, color does not matter", but I 
>have experienced many storage hardware issues over the years that were 
>caused by red SATA cables.  Other readers on this list have had 
>similar experiences.  The explanation is chemistry -- the red dye 
>slowly corrodes the conductors and/or contacts.  Since replacing all 
>of my red SATA cables with black locking 6 Gbps SATA cables, all of my 
>storage hardware issues have been due to failed HDD's.

And I've had a heck of a lot of hard drives connected with red SATA 
cables without issues, to the point that I'm more than confident to not 
jump on SATA cable color as the answer to any question as well as being 
reasonably confident that people pursuing this are going to end up 
interpreting coincidences as strong correlations.

A more likely source of problems is the fact that the SATA connector is 
actually spec'd for a really low number of cycles. If someone frequently
plugs and unplugs SATA cables there's a good chance they'll introduce 
connection issues, and if someone has old cables that have been used in 
a number of differnent systems there's a chance they're done. Regardless 
of color. Of course if you replace an old worn out red cable with a 
brand new not-red cable... Insertion cycles also might not be an issue 
at all; there's a difference between what the minimum requirement is and 
how robust a particular implementation is--but you can't really tell 
just by looking at it. This is, however, one of the reasons that a lot 
of people insist that "SATA III" cables are special even though the spec 
(and testing) says that "SATA I" cables perform the same--they simply 
tried a worn-out cable. Cables that were completely out of spec in the 
first place probably account for the rest, but again bogus junk can come 
in any color.

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#230647

On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 18:14:16 -0500
Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> wrote:

> And I've had a heck of a lot of hard drives connected with red SATA 
> cables without issues, to the point that I'm more than confident to
> not jump on SATA cable color as the answer to any question as well as
> being reasonably confident that people pursuing this are going to end
> up interpreting coincidences as strong correlations.
> 
> A more likely source of problems is the fact that the SATA connector
> is actually spec'd for a really low number of cycles.

I have a few SATA cables, mostly red, most of them Alchemy "Premium
Modding Series", 30 cm SATA3. And all of the Alchemy cables have locks.
I have had no problems. I recently inspected some cables, and found no
visible evidence of corrosion. I have not had any problems with any
SATA installations.

Could those of you with SATA cables, please indicate whether they were
problematic or not, and locking or not?

Thank you.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#230660

On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 18:14:16 -0500
Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 02:53:58PM -0800, David Christensen wrote:
> >I used to think "a cable is a cable, color does not matter", but I 
> >have experienced many storage hardware issues over the years that
> >were caused by red SATA cables.  Other readers on this list have had 
> >similar experiences.  The explanation is chemistry -- the red dye 
> >slowly corrodes the conductors and/or contacts.  Since replacing all 
> >of my red SATA cables with black locking 6 Gbps SATA cables, all of
> >my storage hardware issues have been due to failed HDD's.  
> 
> And I've had a heck of a lot of hard drives connected with red SATA 
> cables without issues, to the point that I'm more than confident to
> not jump on SATA cable color as the answer to any question as well as
> being reasonably confident that people pursuing this are going to end
> up interpreting coincidences as strong correlations.
> 
> A more likely source of problems is the fact that the SATA connector
> is actually spec'd for a really low number of cycles. If someone
> frequently plugs and unplugs SATA cables there's a good chance
> they'll introduce connection issues, and if someone has old cables
> that have been used in a number of differnent systems there's a
> chance they're done. Regardless of color. Of course if you replace an
> old worn out red cable with a brand new not-red cable... Insertion
> cycles also might not be an issue at all; there's a difference
> between what the minimum requirement is and how robust a particular
> implementation is--but you can't really tell just by looking at it.
> This is, however, one of the reasons that a lot of people insist that
> "SATA III" cables are special even though the spec (and testing) says
> that "SATA I" cables perform the same--they simply tried a worn-out
> cable. Cables that were completely out of spec in the first place
> probably account for the rest, but again bogus junk can come in any
> color.
> 

It is important to remember that all electrical signals, HDMI, SDI and
the rest of the alphabet are *analogue* signals. There is no such thing
as a digital signal. And that all of these modern 'digital' signals use
very high frequencies and are pushed down cables of a kind which were
never really intended to handle those frequencies. 4K television down a
single coax runs at 12Gb/s. Once, that would have had to travel down a
waveguide, and it still does if you actually need most of the input
power to reach the other end. 3Gb/s HD-SDI is routinely pushed through
cables that have a flat frequency response and reasonable group delay up
to 5MHz.

The neat, tidy square waves that the textbooks show are a long way from
reality, and receiver ICs have to cope with the real-world stuff. It
only takes a tiny shift of voltage with temperature to move detection
of 1s and 0s from 'rock solid' to 'most of the time'. It is also
impossible to properly terminate a cable at high frequencies without
using a lot of components and alignment equipment, so there will always
be small reflections added to the mix. The poorer the standard of the
cable, the more loosely its alleged characteristic impedance is
defined, and will anyway be messed up by a little corrosion between the
connectors. Gold plating helps but is not a complete answer, and the
thinner the plating, the sooner it gets rubbed away by repeated
connections and disconnections, as Michael said.

-- 
Joe

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#230744

On jeudi 14 janvier 2021 00:14:16 CET Michael Stone wrote:
> A more likely source of problems is the fact that the SATA connector is
> actually spec'd for a really low number of cycles.

I also had trouble on an Olimex card. I got error when the cable is not coming 
straight in the connector. 

When viewing the flat side of a SATA cable, any sideway tension on the cable 
would lead to errors.

HTH

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#230639

On Wednesday 13 January 2021 16:55:37 David Christensen wrote:

> On 2021-01-13 11:07, Dennis Wicks wrote:
> > Greetings;
> >
> > I am getting very frequent disk errors and I can't figure out which
> >
> > drive they are occurring on. I get two messages:
> >> [174384.704895] sata_sil 0000:05:00.0: Event logged [IO_PAGE_FAULT
> >> domain=0x0000 address=0x00000000cf99c100 flags=0x0000]
> >>
> >> [174384.705153] AMD-Vi: Event logged [IO_PAGE_FAULT device=05:00.0
> >> domain=0x0000 address=0x00000000df853000 flags=0x0000]
> >
> > Several of each of them occur at once, every few seconds.
> > Is there any way that I can figure out which drive is causing the
> > problem?
>
> If you have any red SATA cables, replace them with new black SATA 6
> Gbps cables with locking connectors.  (I use Cable Matters cables.)

I am glad to see someone else preaching about red (technically its 
magenta) cables. Something in the plastic dye used to get that "hot red" 
color does not cohabit well with the copper in the cables. I've known 
about it since the early 70's when the Japanese CB radio's all had a hot 
red color of wire in their mike cables. The failure rate was 100% in 
about 2 years, or less for the truckers, you could shake the copper out 
of the end of a cut off piece of that wire as a rust colored powder. It 
was no longer a currant conducting wire. We replaced them with Belden 
cables, but then demand had Belden buying Japanese too.  At one point, I 
had over 50 CB radios waiting on mike cables at Norfolk Two-Way Radio in 
Norfolk Nebraska. To this day, I still say to replace them with any 
other color, black sata-III with latching clips are best but still hard 
to find, the id10t filling your order doesn't care what color so you 
have to get downright snotty when sending a 10 pack of the red ones back 
for credit. Maddening when you gave the phone sales person taking your 
order instructions that they could be any color /but/ red.  Yet I've 
been called out on THIS list, for mentioning that the red ones are time 
bombs.

> Download the manufacturer diagnostic utility for whatever brand
> disk(s) you own and run it.  I prefer tools that run on bootable media
> (e.g. USB flash drive); Windows may be required.
>
>
> David


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#230645

On 2021-01-13 13:55, David Christensen wrote:
> Download the manufacturer diagnostic utility for whatever brand disk(s) 
> you own and run it.  I prefer tools that run on bootable media (e.g. USB 
> flash drive); Windows may be required.

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#230646

On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 13:55:37 -0800
David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> wrote:

> Download the manufacturer diagnostic utility for whatever brand
> disk(s) you own and run it.  I prefer tools that run on bootable
> media (e.g. USB flash drive); Windows may be required.

The OP may also find package smartmontools and the gui front end of
choice useful.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#230672

Dennis Wicks wrote:
> Greetings;
>
> I am getting very frequent disk errors and I can't figure out which 
> drive they are occurring on. I get two messages:
>
>> [174384.704895] sata_sil 0000:05:00.0: Event logged [IO_PAGE_FAULT 
>> domain=0x0000 address=0x00000000cf99c100 flags=0x0000]
>
>> [174384.705153] AMD-Vi: Event logged [IO_PAGE_FAULT device=05:00.0 
>> domain=0x0000 address=0x00000000df853000 flags=0x0000]
>
> Several of each of them occur at once, every few seconds.
> Is there any way that I can figure out which drive is causing the 
> problem?
>
1. Run diagnostics on each drive (say, the SMART long diagnostic) - that 
should get you the disk id
2. Run the diagnostics again, on just your failing drive, look for the 
drive with the flashing light
3. Depending on how old the drive is, your problem is probably a failing 
drive

Having said that, you might want to track down what those log entries 
actually mean.  Traditionally, a "page fault" indicates that a page is 
not found in memory, so the o/s is swapping the required page in from 
disk.  This might simply mean that you need more memory.  You might look 
at diagnostics that indicate memory usage and swapping.

Miles Fidelman


-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

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