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Groups > linux.debian.user > #229765 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2020-12-15 10:10 +0100 |
| Last post | 2020-12-27 19:20 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 21 — 10 participants |
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FW: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-12-15 10:10 +0100
Re: FW: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-12-15 11:50 +0100
Re: FW: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-12-15 12:50 +0100
Re: FW: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-12-15 14:50 +0100
Re: FW: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-12-15 17:30 +0100
Re: FW: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2020-12-16 01:00 +0100
Re: FW: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-12-16 09:20 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-12-15 14:50 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2020-12-21 12:50 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2020-12-21 15:50 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2020-12-21 18:00 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? "Rick Thomas" <rick.thomas@pobox.com> - 2020-12-21 16:30 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2020-12-21 16:50 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2020-12-22 01:30 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2020-12-22 12:40 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-12-26 23:50 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2020-12-27 12:10 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-12-27 17:00 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2020-12-27 23:20 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-12-28 02:50 +0100
Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-12-27 19:20 +0100
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| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 10:10 +0100 |
| Subject | FW: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <Bmevg-7u7-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
Relevant for those who need i386 support. Kind regards, Andrei ----- Forwarded message from Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> ----- Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:55:49 -0800 From: Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, debian-release@lists.debian.org, debian-cd@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? Organization: The Eyrie User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) Calum McConnell <calumlikesapplepie@gmail.com> writes: > A very fair point, and quite equitably put. If I was remotely > comfortable tweaking kernels, or used a 32 bit machine regularly, I > would be more comfortable volunteering. As it is, I have only really > learned to maintain packages in the past few months, and I feel nowhere > near confident enough about my future to make a three-year commitment. It sounds like from Adrien's message that one of the missing pieces is more people testing d-i regularly on i386 hardware to confirm that it works properly. That's something that doesn't require much kernel tweaking, and may be a quick way to help. Increasingly most of the people who work on Debian don't have i386 hardware lying around, particularly i386 hardware that requires an i386 kernel or that exercises the full range of older boot processes. If you do, testing and reporting good bugs would probably be helpful. It sounds like there are a fair number of people want the i386 architecture to survive, which is great. That probably means the resources are there. One of the things a porter does is coordinate the effort, so people who are willing to invest time into that coordination can help even if they don't think they can fix tricky kernel bugs. > But I would like to say that, while it is a significant workload, it > isn't one that isn't being done. There is still only one porter, it's > true, but that's also currently the case for ppc64el, and s390x has no > confirmed porters. My intuition is also that i386, although becoming less popular, was starting from such a huge install base that the resources are probably out there somewhere. > Further, unless "sudden death of most porters" can be added to the list > of bad events of 2020, I feel confident in saying that there are still > probably some more people who simply haven't gotten around to confirming > that they can be a porter. I agree. Most of my point is just that they should do that. :) Now's the time. > While I agree that i386 kernel support should be phased out, and might > even need to be dropped altogether, I strongly disagree with the > original premise of this thread, that all i386 support should be dropped > for Bullseye. I may be able to reassure you a bit there. Someone pointing out that we don't have enough confirmed resources for a port happens semi-regularly, and the usual outcome is that enough resources step forward. We're not very eager to drop things that people want to support. The point is to prod people into stepping forward and volunteering for the things they care about. What's perhaps more significant is that i386 is now getting to the point where it requires such prodding, instead of being an assumed default architecture. That means that the folks who care about it should probably start thinking about building more organization and structure around the work, recruiting people, building a task list, and so forth, instead of just assuming "oh, everything will work on i386, it always has." Volunteering to do that sort of coordination is helpful even if you aren't debugging FTBFS problems. -- Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> ----- End forwarded message ----- -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
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| From | deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 11:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: FW: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <Bmg41-8fe-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229765 |
Hi Andrei, thank you for posting on this very important topic. I want to share my experience and view hoping that you draw some useful conclusions and we can keep i386 in some way available. Andrei POPESCU wrote: [snip] > > My intuition is also that i386, although becoming less popular, was > starting from such a huge install base that the resources are probably out > there somewhere. > >> Further, unless "sudden death of most porters" can be added to the list >> of bad events of 2020, I feel confident in saying that there are still >> probably some more people who simply haven't gotten around to confirming >> that they can be a porter. > > I agree. Most of my point is just that they should do that. :) Now's > the time. > My use of i386 is on a geode based Accrosser industrial PC that is used as FW and VPN. The issue with this hardware is that the debian stock kernel never worked and I spent a lot of time finding the proper combination of legacy IDE driver configuration, so that it can boot from a CF card. In this context the ability to test debian kernel is not present. I have a second device (with less RAM) as a spare that can be freely used for testing. >> While I agree that i386 kernel support should be phased out, and might >> even need to be dropped altogether, I strongly disagree with the >> original premise of this thread, that all i386 support should be dropped >> for Bullseye. > > I may be able to reassure you a bit there. Someone pointing out that we > don't have enough confirmed resources for a port happens semi-regularly, > and the usual outcome is that enough resources step forward. We're not > very eager to drop things that people want to support. The point is to > prod people into stepping forward and volunteering for the things they > care about. > > What's perhaps more significant is that i386 is now getting to the point > where it requires such prodding, instead of being an assumed default > architecture. That means that the folks who care about it should probably > start thinking about building more organization and structure around the > work, recruiting people, building a task list, and so forth, instead of > just assuming "oh, everything will work on i386, it always has." > Volunteering to do that sort of coordination is helpful even if you aren't > debugging FTBFS problems. Is it feasible to have the base system working as a priority, so that i386 is still available? The applications might be stripped down and people who are affected should take action to test and get involved. On my side I can offer conducting tests on the spare device - even more if it can be automated in some way as I really do not have much time for big tasks. I was thinking of creating a local repository of the sources of the packages I use and setup a build process, so that I can still update in future and keep the system running. I really do not see why I should spent money on new hardware - the advantages in my use case are not big doing so. For example I payed for the Accrosser Geode devices about 250,- (US$) each. Newer devices I looked last year and couple of months ago are >400. Here is the list and except kernel all is debian stock. Of course I can install more but the device is not a Porsche (500MHz with 128MB RAM) :) It doesn't consume much power though - contrary to one i386 notebook that is perfectly working, but I do not want to keep all the time powered on. # dpkg --get-selections acl install acpi install acpitool install adduser install apt install apt-utils install at install base-files install base-passwd install bash install bc install binutils install binutils-common:i386 install binutils-i686-linux-gnu install borgbackup install bsd-mailx install bsdmainutils install bsdutils install busybox install bzip2 install ca-certificates install chkrootkit install console-common install console-data install coreutils install cpio install cron install dash install debconf install debconf-i18n install debconf-utils install debian-archive-keyring install debianutils install diffutils install dirmngr install dmsetup install dpkg install dselect install e2fslibs:i386 install e2fsprogs install e2fsprogs-l10n install easy-rsa install ed install ethtool install fdisk install file install findutils install fuse install gcc-8-base:i386 install gettext-base install gnupg install gnupg-agent install gnupg-l10n install gnupg-utils install gnutls-bin install gpg install gpg-agent install gpg-wks-client install gpg-wks-server install gpgconf install gpgsm install gpgv install grep install groff-base install grub-common install grub-legacy install grub-pc-bin install gzip install hostname install ifupdown install inetutils-syslogd install init install init-system-helpers install initramfs-tools install initramfs-tools-core install initscripts install insserv install iperf install iproute2 install iptables install iptraf install iptraf-ng install iputils-ping install isc-dhcp-client install isc-dhcp-common install kbd install keychain install klibc-utils install kmod install libacl1:i386 install libapt-inst2.0:i386 install libapt-pkg5.0:i386 install libassuan0:i386 install libatm1:i386 install libattr1:i386 install libaudit-common install libaudit1:i386 install libb2-1 install libbinutils:i386 install libblkid1:i386 install libbsd0:i386 install libbz2-1.0:i386 install libc-bin install libc-l10n install libc6:i386 install libcap-ng0:i386 install libcap2:i386 install libcap2-bin install libclass-isa-perl install libcom-err2:i386 install libcomerr2:i386 install libdaemon0:i386 install libdb5.3:i386 install libdbus-1-3:i386 install libdbus-glib-1-2:i386 install libdebconfclient0:i386 install libdevmapper1.02.1:i386 install libdns-export1104 install libedit2:i386 install libefiboot1:i386 install libefivar1:i386 install libelf1:i386 install libevent-2.1-6:i386 install libexpat1:i386 install libext2fs2:i386 install libfdisk1:i386 install libffi6:i386 install libfl2:i386 install libfreetype6:i386 install libfuse2:i386 install libgcc1:i386 install libgcrypt20:i386 install libgdbm-compat4:i386 install libgdbm6:i386 install libglib2.0-0:i386 install libgmp10:i386 install libgnutls-dane0:i386 install libgnutls30:i386 install libgomp1:i386 install libgpg-error-l10n install libgpg-error0:i386 install libgpm2:i386 install libgssapi-krb5-2:i386 install libgssglue1:i386 install libhogweed4:i386 install libicu63:i386 install libidn11:i386 install libidn2-0:i386 install libip4tc0:i386 install libip6tc0:i386 install libiptc0:i386 install libisc-export1100:i386 install libjansson4:i386 install libk5crypto3:i386 install libkeyutils1:i386 install libklibc:i386 install libkmod2:i386 install libkrb5-3:i386 install libkrb5support0:i386 install libksba8:i386 install libldap-2.4-2:i386 install libldap-common install liblocale-gettext-perl install liblockfile-bin install liblockfile1:i386 install liblz4-1:i386 install liblzma5:i386 install liblzo2-2:i386 install libmagic-mgc install libmagic1:i386 install libmnl0:i386 install libmount1:i386 install libmpdec2:i386 install libncurses5:i386 install libncurses6:i386 install libncursesw5:i386 install libncursesw6:i386 install libnetfilter-conntrack3:i386 install libnetfilter-cthelper0:i386 install libnettle6:i386 install libnfnetlink0:i386 install libnfsidmap2:i386 install libnftables0:i386 install libnftnl11:i386 install libnpth0:i386 install libopts25:i386 install libp11-kit0:i386 install libpam-cap:i386 install libpam-modules:i386 install libpam-modules-bin install libpam-runtime install libpam-ssh install libpam-tmpdir install libpam0g:i386 install libpcap0.8:i386 install libpci3:i386 install libpcre3:i386 install libperl5.28:i386 install libpkcs11-helper1:i386 install libpng16-16:i386 install libpolkit-gobject-1-0:i386 install libpopt0:i386 install libprocps7:i386 install libpython-stdlib:i386 install libpython2-stdlib:i386 install libpython2.7-minimal:i386 install libpython2.7-stdlib:i386 install libpython3-stdlib:i386 install libpython3.7-minimal:i386 install libpython3.7-stdlib:i386 install libreadline7:i386 install libsasl2-2:i386 install libsasl2-modules:i386 install libsasl2-modules-db:i386 install libseccomp2:i386 install libselinux1:i386 install libsemanage-common install libsemanage1:i386 install libsepol1:i386 install libslang2:i386 install libsmartcols1:i386 install libsqlite3-0:i386 install libss2:i386 install libssl1.1:i386 install libstdc++5:i386 install libstdc++6:i386 install libswitch-perl install libsystemd0:i386 install libtasn1-6:i386 install libtext-charwidth-perl install libtext-iconv-perl install libtext-wrapi18n-perl install libtinfo5:i386 install libtinfo6:i386 install libuchardet0:i386 install libudev1:i386 install libunbound8:i386 install libunicode-string-perl install libunistring2:i386 install libusb-0.1-4:i386 install libustr-1.0-1:i386 install libuuid1:i386 install libwrap0:i386 install libxtables12:i386 install libzstd1:i386 install linux-base install linux-image-4.19.25gx2 install linux-image-4.19.25gx2-deb10 install locales install login install logrotate install lrzsz install lsb-base install lzma install make install makedev install mawk install mbr install menu install mime-support install mingetty install minicom install mount install multiarch-support install ncurses-base install ncurses-bin install ncurses-term install ne install ne-doc install net-tools install netbase install nftables install ntpdate install nvi install openssh-client install openssh-server install openssh-sftp-server install openssl install openvpn install passwd install pciutils install perl install perl-base install perl-modules-5.28 install pigz install pinentry-curses install postfix install postfix-sqlite install procps install psmisc install python install python-minimal install python2 install python2-minimal install python2.7 install python2.7-minimal install python3 install python3-llfuse install python3-minimal install python3-msgpack install python3-pkg-resources install python3.7 install python3.7-minimal install readline-common install resolvconf install sed install sensible-utils install shorewall install shorewall-core install ssh install ssl-cert install startpar install sudo install sysv-rc install sysvinit-core install sysvinit-utils install tar install tcpdump install traceroute install tzdata install ucf install udev install unzip install util-linux install xz-utils install zip install zlib1g:i386 install
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| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 12:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: FW: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <Bmh06-lV-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229768 |
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On Ma, 15 dec 20, 11:47:49, deloptes wrote: > > Hi Andrei, > thank you for posting on this very important topic. > > I want to share my experience and view hoping that you draw some useful > conclusions and we can keep i386 in some way available. Sorry, should have been more explicit: I'm just the messenger here, assuming that most debian-user subscribers are probably not following debian-devel. In my opinion the most important message is this: > > What's perhaps more significant is that i386 is now getting to the point > > where it requires such prodding, instead of being an assumed default > > architecture. That means that the folks who care about it should probably > > start thinking about building more organization and structure around the > > work, recruiting people, building a task list, and so forth, instead of > > just assuming "oh, everything will work on i386, it always has." > > Volunteering to do that sort of coordination is helpful even if you aren't > > debugging FTBFS problems. That is, if you and other list subscribers care about continued i386 support you should probably look into contributing. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
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| From | deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 14:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: FW: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BmiSe-1sW-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229770 |
Andrei POPESCU wrote: > Sorry, should have been more explicit: I'm just the messenger here, > assuming that most debian-user subscribers are probably not following > debian-devel. > this is true - thank you I became aware of the i386 issue on the geode dev news list (AFAIR) some time ago (may be 6months). > In my opinion the most important message is this: > >> > What's perhaps more significant is that i386 is now getting to the >> > point where it requires such prodding, instead of being an assumed >> > default architecture. That means that the folks who care about it >> > should probably start thinking about building more organization and >> > structure around the work, recruiting people, building a task list, and >> > so forth, instead of just assuming "oh, everything will work on i386, >> > it always has." Volunteering to do that sort of coordination is helpful >> > even if you aren't debugging FTBFS problems. > > > That is, if you and other list subscribers care about continued i386 > support you should probably look into contributing. What does it mean exactly? Contribute how and where?
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 17:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: FW: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <Bmln5-32f-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229771 |
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On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 02:40:47PM +0100, deloptes wrote: > Andrei POPESCU wrote: [...] > > That is, if you and other list subscribers care about continued i386 > > support you should probably look into contributing. > > What does it mean exactly? Contribute how and where? I'd ask in debian-devel [1] about that. There doesn't seem to be a specific i386 list (yet?). Of course, CCing debian-user seems to make sense, to gather up folks interested in keeping the port alive. Cheers - t
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| From | David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-16 01:00 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <Bmsox-76B-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229771 |
On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 00:41, deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote: > Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > Sorry, should have been more explicit: I'm just the messenger here, > > assuming that most debian-user subscribers are probably not following > > debian-devel. > > In my opinion the most important message is this: > >> > [----- Forwarded message from Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> -----] > >> > What's perhaps more significant is that i386 is now getting to the > >> > point where it requires such prodding, instead of being an assumed > >> > default architecture. That means that the folks who care about it > >> > should probably start thinking about building more organization and > >> > structure around the work, recruiting people, building a task list, and > >> > so forth, instead of just assuming "oh, everything will work on i386, > >> > it always has." Volunteering to do that sort of coordination is helpful > >> > even if you aren't debugging FTBFS problems. > > That is, if you and other list subscribers care about continued i386 > > support you should probably look into contributing. > What does it mean exactly? Contribute how and where? Some discussion around those questions occurred in the thread from which Andrei forwarded one message. The thread begins here: https://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2020/12/msg00139.html so that's probably a good place to begin reading for anyone interested in this topic.
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| From | deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-16 09:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: FW: Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BmAcp-3Cg-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229785 |
David wrote: > On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 00:41, deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote: [snip] > > Some discussion around those questions occurred in the thread from > which Andrei forwarded one message. The thread begins here: > https://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2020/12/msg00139.html > > so that's probably a good place to begin reading for anyone interested > in this topic. Definitely a good reading and here is where I see myself https://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2020/12/msg00214.html "There were surprisingly many users complaining that their hardware was no longer supported after the i386 baseline was raised from 586 to 686 in stretch." The Geode I have is 586 with following enabled flags: fpu de pse tsc msr cx8 pge cmov mmx mmxext 3dnowext 3dnow cpuid But as noted since stretch the stock kernel does not work as it is 686. The stock kernel did not work also before, because of the the board - the chipset that requires legacy drivers combined with non legacy and the bios that is very picky. I must admit I do not recall raising bug or asking for advice
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| From | Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 14:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BmiSe-1sW-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229770 |
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On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:42:37 +0200 Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote: > That is, if you and other list subscribers care about continued i386 > support you should probably look into contributing. And how does one do that? -- Does anybody read signatures any more? https://charlescurley.com https://charlescurley.com/blog/
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| From | "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-21 12:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BorRn-707-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229772 |
On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 06:42:41AM -0700, Charles Curley wrote: > On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:42:37 +0200 > Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > That is, if you and other list subscribers care about continued i386 > > support you should probably look into contributing. > > And how does one do that? > > -- > Does anybody read signatures any more? > > https://charlescurley.com > https://charlescurley.com/blog/ If you have "real" 686 32 bit hardware that you can press into service that isn't being used: pick up a Debian i386 disk and try reinstalling Debian. If you have "real" 686 32 bit hardware - get a copy of a Debian live CD and boot it - you may face probelms if there isn't a lot of memory. We *know*_ you can run 32 bit Debian on an AMD64 though without a lot of obvious benefit - that's where some of the bigger packages like Boost and Mozilla Firefox are having to be built these days. If you read the thread over in debian-release / debian-cd lists, you should see what people are saying. There's possibly an option to keep a subset of packages to allow for running 32 bit closed source stuff like games rather than a full release. Interestingly, the same points were made by Ben Hutchings five years ago now when Debian dropped 586 support - https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2015/09/msg00589.html - they can only become more relevant with time. As the person who raised the question initially, I may go back to the lists with a summary to see if there's any consistent way forward. All best, Andy C
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| From | Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-21 15:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BouFA-ds-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229880 |
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Andrew M.A. Cater writes: > On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 06:42:41AM -0700, Charles Curley wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:42:37 +0200 > > Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > That is, if you and other list subscribers care about continued i386 > > > support you should probably look into contributing. > > > > And how does one do that? [...] > If you have "real" 686 32 bit hardware that you can press into service that > isn't being used: pick up a Debian i386 disk and try reinstalling Debian. > > If you have "real" 686 32 bit hardware - get a copy of a Debian live CD and > boot it - you may face probelms if there isn't a lot of memory. [...] Which version of Debian should be tested in such cases -- testing or stable? Any specific image files that I should use -- I'd head for the most recent official netinst image if not :) ? I have a few i386 systems (which will not boot amd64) here and could do a few installs and live CD tests. Is there anything of interest to report apart from obvious "problems" and "successes"? Does it make sense to test different "boot paths"? I normally burn actual CDs for the installation because that's what all (?) of my i386 systems support booting from, but some of them may do USB-pendrive based installations if triggered from an existent GRUB 2 prompt, too. I have got seven i386 (non-amd64-capable) machines in total, all of which are known to work with "Debian 10 stable" although not freshly installed but upgraded from earlier releases. At least two of them can be easily used for testng and one of the others has very low RAM (will not run live systems that is...). HTH Linux-Fan öö
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| From | Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-21 18:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BowHn-1nN-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229889 |
Linux-Fan composed on 2020-12-21 15:44 (UTC+0100): > I have got seven i386 (non-amd64-capable) machines in total, all of which > are known to work with "Debian 10 stable" although not freshly installed but > upgraded from earlier releases. At least two of them can be easily used > for testng and one of the others has very low RAM (will not run live systems > that is...). I too have 7 with Buster. Probably at least three of them also have Bullseye. I don't upgrade them very often. Two were last done in August. One I did yesterday, one Saturday, another a week ago. IIRC, all are upgrades originally from Stretch or prior, unless maybe one started with Buster. All use TDE/TDM. All have Tumbleweed as well. -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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| From | "Rick Thomas" <rick.thomas@pobox.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-21 16:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <Bovii-Fn-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229880 |
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On Mon, Dec 21, 2020, at 3:48 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 06:42:41AM -0700, Charles Curley wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:42:37 +0200 > > Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > That is, if you and other list subscribers care about continued i386 > > > support you should probably look into contributing. > > > > And how does one do that? > > > > -- > > Does anybody read signatures any more? > > > > https://charlescurley.com > > https://charlescurley.com/blog/ > > If you have "real" 686 32 bit hardware that you can press into service that > isn't being used: pick up a Debian i386 disk and try reinstalling Debian. > > If you have "real" 686 32 bit hardware - get a copy of a Debian live CD and > boot it - you may face probelms if there isn't a lot of memory. Well, as it happens I just did that! But I didn't have any problems... Details: I recently was given an old IBM ThinkPad T60 1953 with an Intel Core Duo (Yonah) 32-bit processor. Vintage c 2006. Output of "cat /proc/cpuinfo" is attached. First I tried booting the Debian 10.7.0 (Buster) amd64 Live DVD. It said I didn't have the right kind of processor, and I should try the i386 version. So I did. It booted fine and ran a couple of simple commands without incident. Then I rebooted and ran the installer from the same DVD. Again, no problem installing a system without GUI. I then ran tasksel and used it to install the Cinnamon desktop, which is working great. I'll file an installation report soon. After that, I guess I'll try installing Bullseye and file a report on it. Does anybody know if there's an i386 Live DVD for Bullseye? Thanks for all your work! Rick
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| From | "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-21 16:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BovBE-M7-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229894 |
On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 07:06:45AM -0800, Rick Thomas wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2020, at 3:48 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 06:42:41AM -0700, Charles Curley wrote: > > > On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:42:37 +0200 > > > Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > That is, if you and other list subscribers care about continued i386 > > > > support you should probably look into contributing. > > > > > > And how does one do that? > > > > > > -- > > > Does anybody read signatures any more? > > > > > > https://charlescurley.com > > > https://charlescurley.com/blog/ > > > > If you have "real" 686 32 bit hardware that you can press into service that > > isn't being used: pick up a Debian i386 disk and try reinstalling Debian. > > > > If you have "real" 686 32 bit hardware - get a copy of a Debian live CD and > > boot it - you may face probelms if there isn't a lot of memory. > > Well, as it happens I just did that! But I didn't have any problems... > > Details: > I recently was given an old IBM ThinkPad T60 1953 with an Intel Core Duo (Yonah) 32-bit processor. Vintage c 2006. Output of "cat /proc/cpuinfo" is attached. > > First I tried booting the Debian 10.7.0 (Buster) amd64 Live DVD. It said I didn't have the right kind of processor, and I should try the i386 version. So I did. It booted fine and ran a couple of simple commands without incident. Then I rebooted and ran the installer from the same DVD. Again, no problem installing a system without GUI. I then ran tasksel and used it to install the Cinnamon desktop, which is working great. > > I'll file an installation report soon. After that, I guess I'll try installing Bullseye and file a report on it. > > Does anybody know if there's an i386 Live DVD for Bullseye? > Well, that's a good start :) The test suite we used to test for stable release CDs is here: https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianCD/ReleaseTesting/Buster_r7?highlight=%28testing%29%7C%28cd%29%7C%2810.7%29 - as you can see, we try and exercise as many paths through the standard Debian installer as we can. Just knowing that there are people out there who could help us test some more installs on real hardware helps. You can always do these on KVM / virtual machines of some sort on AMD64 hardware but it doesn't exercise real hardware. The text-speech installs for visually impaired folk are always tested on real hardware but more tests are always welcome - as would be any comment on anything that's unreasonable on low memory. Debian live CDs are not put out by the image creation team but by the debian-live team: I suspect they'll be there before Bullseye main release. For testing live CDs - download one or more and try them? Hope this helps, Andy C > Thanks for all your work! > Rick > processor : 0 > vendor_id : GenuineIntel > cpu family : 6 > model : 14 > model name : Genuine Intel(R) CPU T2400 @ 1.83GHz > stepping : 8 > microcode : 0x39 > cpu MHz : 997.463 > cache size : 2048 KB > physical id : 0 > siblings : 2 > core id : 0 > cpu cores : 2 > apicid : 0 > initial apicid : 0 > fdiv_bug : no > f00f_bug : no > coma_bug : no > fpu : yes > fpu_exception : yes > cpuid level : 10 > wp : yes > flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe nx constant_tsc arch_perfmon bts cpuid aperfmperf pni monitor vmx est tm2 xtpr pdcm dtherm > bugs : cpu_meltdown spectre_v1 spectre_v2 l1tf mds swapgs itlb_multihit > bogomips : 3657.32 > clflush size : 64 > cache_alignment : 64 > address sizes : 32 bits physical, 32 bits virtual > power management: > > processor : 1 > vendor_id : GenuineIntel > cpu family : 6 > model : 14 > model name : Genuine Intel(R) CPU T2400 @ 1.83GHz > stepping : 8 > microcode : 0x39 > cpu MHz : 997.453 > cache size : 2048 KB > physical id : 0 > siblings : 2 > core id : 1 > cpu cores : 2 > apicid : 1 > initial apicid : 1 > fdiv_bug : no > f00f_bug : no > coma_bug : no > fpu : yes > fpu_exception : yes > cpuid level : 10 > wp : yes > flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe nx constant_tsc arch_perfmon bts cpuid aperfmperf pni monitor vmx est tm2 xtpr pdcm dtherm > bugs : cpu_meltdown spectre_v1 spectre_v2 l1tf mds swapgs itlb_multihit > bogomips : 3657.32 > clflush size : 64 > cache_alignment : 64 > address sizes : 32 bits physical, 32 bits virtual > power management: >
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| From | Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-22 01:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BoDIS-5PX-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229895 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
Andrew M.A. Cater writes: > On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 07:06:45AM -0800, Rick Thomas wrote: > > > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2020, at 3:48 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: [...] > > > If you have "real" 686 32 bit hardware that you can press into service > > > that > > > isn't being used: pick up a Debian i386 disk and try reinstalling Debian. > > > > > > If you have "real" 686 32 bit hardware - get a copy of a Debian live CD > > > and boot it - you may face probelms if there isn't a lot of memory. [...] > > I'll file an installation report soon. After that, I guess I'll try > > installing Bullseye and file a report on it. > > > > Does anybody know if there's an i386 Live DVD for Bullseye? > > Well, that's a good start :) The test suite we used to test for stable > release CDs is here: > https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianCD/ReleaseTesting/Buster_r7?highlight= > %28testing%29%7C%28cd%29%7C%2810.7%29 > > - as you can see, we try and exercise as many paths through the standard > Debian installer as we can. Just knowing that there are people out > there who could help us test some more installs on real hardware helps. You > can always do these on KVM / virtual machines of some sort on AMD64 > hardware but it doesn't exercise real hardware. The text-speech installs for > visually impaired folk are always tested on real hardware but more > tests are always welcome - as would be any comment on anything that's > unreasonable on low memory. > > Debian live CDs are not put out by the image creation team but by the debian- > live team: I suspect they'll be there before Bullseye main release. > > For testing live CDs - download one or more and try them? [...] I tried to do a few tests for live CDs and the contained installers. Additionally, I tried the new Bullseye-Alpha3-Installer. I can report that except for the "Calamares" installer which did not want to run on a 512 MiB system, all of the tests I did, worked. As far as I can tell, the corresponding Wiki-lines that would get a "PASSED" from me are these: 1105a debian-live-10.7.0-i386-lxde.iso BIOS Install from DI (Simple disk: single fs EXT4 Network enabled) 1105a debian-live-10.7.0-i386-lxde.iso BIOS Start Live Image 1106a debian-live-10.7.0-i386-standard.iso BIOS Install from DI (Simple disk: single fs EXT4 Network enabled) The more detailed report is currently at [1]. Is it OK for me to just fill- in the three lines above in the Wiki? It looks like the page is mostly used by experienced Debian contributors (and I do not even have a Debian Wiki account yet...)? Does a similar page exist for the Bullseye installer? Or am I on the wrong track and installation reports should go to an entirely different location? It is to be noted, that live GUI systems are _extremly_ slow on my i386 machines. Even LXDE which I thought to use the lowest ressources from the Debian live systems available cannot help speeding up heavy applications like Firefox -- it takes literally minutes to open Firefx and process the URL given as parameter. Xterm runs well, though :) [1] https://masysma.lima-city.de/37/debian_i386_installation_reports.xhtml HTH Linux-Fan öö
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| From | "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-22 12:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BoObf-4ff-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229907 |
On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 01:25:05AM +0100, Linux-Fan wrote: > Andrew M.A. Cater writes: > > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 07:06:45AM -0800, Rick Thomas wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2020, at 3:48 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > > [...] > > > > > If you have "real" 686 32 bit hardware that you can press into > > service > > that > > > > isn't being used: pick up a Debian i386 disk and try reinstalling Debian. > > > > > > > > If you have "real" 686 32 bit hardware - get a copy of a Debian live > > CD > > and boot it - you may face probelms if there isn't a lot of > > memory. > > [...] > > > > I'll file an installation report soon. After that, I guess I'll try > > > installing Bullseye and file a report on it. > > > > > > Does anybody know if there's an i386 Live DVD for Bullseye? > > > > Well, that's a good start :) The test suite we used to test for stable > > release CDs is here: > > https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianCD/ReleaseTesting/Buster_r7?highlight=%28testing%29%7C%28cd%29%7C%2810.7%29 > > > > - as you can see, we try and exercise as many paths through the standard > > Debian installer as we can. Just knowing that there are people out > > there who could help us test some more installs on real hardware helps. > > You can always do these on KVM / virtual machines of some sort on AMD64 > > hardware but it doesn't exercise real hardware. The text-speech installs > > for visually impaired folk are always tested on real hardware but more > > tests are always welcome - as would be any comment on anything that's > > unreasonable on low memory. > > > > Debian live CDs are not put out by the image creation team but by the > > debian-live team: I suspect they'll be there before Bullseye main > > release. > > > > For testing live CDs - download one or more and try them? > > [...] > > I tried to do a few tests for live CDs and the contained installers. > Additionally, I tried the new Bullseye-Alpha3-Installer. I can report that > except for the "Calamares" installer which did not want to run on a 512 MiB > system, all of the tests I did, worked. As far as I can tell, the > corresponding Wiki-lines that would get a "PASSED" from me are these: > Good: that gives us a datum point for Calamares - I'm really not surprised. > 1105a debian-live-10.7.0-i386-lxde.iso BIOS Install from DI (Simple disk: single fs EXT4 Network enabled) > 1105a debian-live-10.7.0-i386-lxde.iso BIOS Start Live Image > 1106a debian-live-10.7.0-i386-standard.iso BIOS Install from DI (Simple > disk: single fs EXT4 Network enabled) > > The more detailed report is currently at [1]. Is it OK for me to just fill- > in the three lines above in the Wiki? It looks like the page is mostly used > by experienced Debian contributors (and I do not even have a Debian Wiki > account yet...)? Does a similar page exist for the Bullseye installer? Or am > I on the wrong track and installation reports should go to an entirely > different location? > This message should be enough: I'm fairly sure the CD images team will pick up on it. There isn't one for the Bullseye installer yet - as you can see, this is our test harness for each individual point release - it's one of the reasons that the actual release process takes 15 hours: the other is that the architectures are built and moved serially - Steve M is working on that. > It is to be noted, that live GUI systems are _extremly_ slow on my i386 > machines. Even LXDE which I thought to use the lowest ressources from the > Debian live systems available cannot help speeding up heavy applications > like Firefox -- it takes literally minutes to open Firefx and process the > URL given as parameter. Xterm runs well, though :) That conforms with my expectations: it may be that that sort of thing is a good datum point for what should/shouldn't be built for i386. Thanks very much indeed for trying and for your help. Next time there's a point release due, pop into debian-cd on OFTC IRC and catch up with what we do, maybe :) All best, Andy C. > > [1] https://masysma.lima-city.de/37/debian_i386_installation_reports.xhtml > > HTH > Linux-Fan > > öö
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| From | Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-26 23:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BqqxP-Fx-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #229895 |
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 15:45:37 +0000 "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> wrote: > > > Well, that's a good start :) The test suite we used to test for > stable release CDs is here: > https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianCD/ReleaseTesting/Buster_r7?highlight=%28testing%29%7C%28cd%29%7C%2810.7%29 First test subject. IBM ThinkPad R51, product name 1836Q4U. Installed via debian-bullseye-DI-alpha3-i386-netinst.iso. Expert install via text using a RW-CD. Language and keyboard are US English. File systems are all ext4, on top of LVM. Desktop: XFCE Running expert install. Usability note: It would be nice if the option to show a password in clear was above the widget for entering the password. That way one could select it or not with less tabbing. Bug??: DI incorrectly detected this machine as having EFI. Bug!!: I tried loading the firmware for the wifi if. DI asked all the right questions, and I gave it all the right answers. But it never connected. The dhcp server never got a request, and on the target hardware, ethtool-lite reported "carrier down". Graphics are slow but serviceable. Mozilla and LibreOffice are pathetically slow but usable in a pinch. -- Does anybody read signatures any more? https://charlescurley.com https://charlescurley.com/blog/
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| From | "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-27 12:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BqC5X-84b-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #230008 |
On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 03:18:40PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote: > On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 15:45:37 +0000 > "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> wrote: > > > > > > Well, that's a good start :) The test suite we used to test for > > stable release CDs is here: > > https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianCD/ReleaseTesting/Buster_r7?highlight=%28testing%29%7C%28cd%29%7C%2810.7%29 > > First test subject. IBM ThinkPad R51, product name 1836Q4U. Installed > via debian-bullseye-DI-alpha3-i386-netinst.iso. Expert install via text > using a RW-CD. Language and keyboard are US English. > > File systems are all ext4, on top of LVM. > > Desktop: XFCE > > Running expert install. > > Usability note: It would be nice if the option to show a password in > clear was above the widget for entering the password. That way one > could select it or not with less tabbing. > > Bug??: DI incorrectly detected this machine as having EFI. > At the beginning? Did you get presented with the UEFI install and did it try to install grub-efi at the end (or did it just ask whether you wanted to install grub in the efi fallback path - which is normal > Bug!!: I tried loading the firmware for the wifi if. DI asked all the > right questions, and I gave it all the right answers. But it never > connected. The dhcp server never got a request, and on the target > hardware, ethtool-lite reported "carrier down". > How did you try to load the firmware - via USB stick / untarring a tar ball? What did it report in logs. Yes, I know, it's a nuisance installing firmware this way but it ought to work. > Graphics are slow but serviceable. Mozilla and LibreOffice are > pathetically slow but usable in a pinch. > > -- Thanks for the report. All best, Andy > Does anybody read signatures any more? > > https://charlescurley.com > https://charlescurley.com/blog/ >
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| From | Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-27 17:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BqGCB-281-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #230023 |
On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 11:01:22 +0000 "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> wrote: > > > > Bug??: DI incorrectly detected this machine as having EFI. > > > > At the beginning? Did you get presented with the UEFI install and did > it try to install grub-efi at the end (or did it just ask whether you > wanted to install grub in the efi fallback path - which is normal The latter. But why even ask about the EFI backup path if there is no EFI?? -- Does anybody read signatures any more? https://charlescurley.com https://charlescurley.com/blog/
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| From | "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-27 23:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BqMyl-6cs-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #230029 |
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 08:33:26AM -0700, Charles Curley wrote: > On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 11:01:22 +0000 > "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Bug??: DI incorrectly detected this machine as having EFI. > > > > > > > At the beginning? Did you get presented with the UEFI install and did > > it try to install grub-efi at the end (or did it just ask whether you > > wanted to install grub in the efi fallback path - which is normal > > The latter. But why even ask about the EFI backup path if there is no > EFI?? > Because that's a default "if all else fails look here" location, perhaps? It doesn't make a lot of difference: grub is installed as more or less the last step in installation anyway. There are bits of deep magic if you want to convert a machine that's been installed using Legacy Boot to one using UEFI - but it's not straightforward. All best, Andy C > > > -- > Does anybody read signatures any more? > > https://charlescurley.com > https://charlescurley.com/blog/ >
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-28 02:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Release status of i386 for Bullseye and long term support for 3 years? |
| Message-ID | <BqPPA-8ar-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #230037 |
On Sun 27 Dec 2020 at 22:10:53 (+0000), Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 08:33:26AM -0700, Charles Curley wrote: > > On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 11:01:22 +0000 "Andrew M.A. Cater" wrote: > > > > > > > > Bug??: DI incorrectly detected this machine as having EFI. > > > > > > > At the beginning? Did you get presented with the UEFI install and did > > > it try to install grub-efi at the end (or did it just ask whether you > > > wanted to install grub in the efi fallback path - which is normal > > > > The latter. But why even ask about the EFI backup path if there is no > > EFI?? > > > Because that's a default "if all else fails look here" location, perhaps? As I was offered this screen even on my 2000 PentiumIII/Seattle2 PC, I've always assumed that the d-i was led astray by the fact that the ISO is itself UEFI-aware. > It doesn't make a lot of difference: grub is installed as more or less the > last step in installation anyway. And better to give you a screen you don't need rather than not give you one that you do need. > There are bits of deep magic if you want to convert a machine that's been > installed using Legacy Boot to one using UEFI - but it's not straightforward. What would be the benefit of UEFI booting on a machine that can already BIOS boot? The reason I ask is because I have recently wiped Windows from a laptop that booted Windows with UEFI, but linux with the BIOS. Any reason to change? Cheers, David.
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