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Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid the hijack?

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  Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid the  hijack? Keith Bainbridge <ke1thozgroups@gmx.com> - 2020-11-23 04:30 +0100
    Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid  the hijack? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-11-23 06:40 +0100
      Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid the hijack? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2020-11-23 17:00 +0100
        Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d Keith Bainbridge <ke1thozgroups@gmx.com> - 2020-11-25 01:10 +0100
      Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d Keith Bainbridge <ke1thozgroups@gmx.com> - 2020-11-24 23:40 +0100
        Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-11-25 14:10 +0100
        Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-11-25 16:30 +0100
    Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid  the hijack? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-11-23 13:20 +0100
      Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d Keith Bainbridge <ke1thozgroups@gmx.com> - 2020-11-24 23:40 +0100
        Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2020-11-25 10:10 +0100
          Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-11-25 15:20 +0100
            Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2020-11-25 21:20 +0100
              Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-11-25 21:50 +0100
      Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid  the hijack? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2020-11-25 10:20 +0100
      Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid  the hijack? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-11-26 05:00 +0100
        Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid the  hijack? mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2020-11-26 10:00 +0100
          Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid  the hijack? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-11-29 04:30 +0100
        Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid  the hijack? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2020-11-26 10:40 +0100
          Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid  the hijack? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-11-29 04:30 +0100

#228933 — Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid the hijack?

So does htis get a new subject in the list?

Good afternon All

I was interested to read that Flo, the OP, uses separate mail
collection, sendmail and thunderbird. Some of the replies sound like
this is a common practice.

What are the advantages of this set of processes over letting tbird do
it all? - or any other client for that matter?

Would it save me from my fairly regular 'can't find profile' errors?


Original post:
  Subject: 	Problem with /var/mail file > 2GB with pop3
Resent-Date: 	Thu, 19 Nov 2020 21:52:35 +0000 (UTC)
Resent-From: 	debian-user@lists.debian.org
Date: 	Thu, 19 Nov 2020 22:42:53 +0100
From: 	Flo <debianflo@gmx.at>
To: 	debian-user@lists.debian.org


I am using Debian Buster, Thunderbird, Sendmail and popa3d to get emails.

The mail files for each account are stored at /var/mail. No it has come
to that point that such a file exceeded 2GB. And 'Get Messages' doesn't
work anymore.

Does anyone know about this issue? Any hints to solve it? I could try a
different pop3 server?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Flo


--
Keith Bainbridge

ke1thozgroups@gmx.com

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#228938 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid the hijack?

On Mon 23 Nov 2020 at 14:27:36 (+1100), Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> So does htis get a new subject in the list?

It would appear so. I guess you could also have removed the Re:
from the subject line.

> I was interested to read that Flo, the OP, uses separate mail
> collection, sendmail and thunderbird. Some of the replies sound like
> this is a common practice.
> 
> What are the advantages of this set of processes over letting tbird do
> it all? - or any other client for that matter?

Disadvantages of using your email client to send might include:
. sending is relatively instant as the client is dispatching
  it to the same machine, not the remote smarthost,
. exim will retry sending if your smarthost is busy/unavailable,
. it keeps logs,
. it send emails on behalf of other processes, like cron jobs,
  where your client is not involved.

I don't collect emails in Flo's sense, as I use IMAP rather than POP.
So my INBOX is merely mutt's cache of individual emails, rather than a
live mailfile. The actual server is somewhere around Manchester/Stockport.

> Would it save me from my fairly regular 'can't find profile' errors?

I don't use TB, which is where I assume you're getting those from.

Cheers,
David.

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#228964 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid the hijack?

I use Fetchmail to fetch my mail every five minutes from Newsguy.  This
means that my mail is never on anyone else's server for more than a few
minutes.  Fetchmail hands it off to Exim which passes it through
Mailagent and Spamassassin and then delivers it to my inbox.  Outgoing
mail is delivered to Newsguy by Exim running in smarthost mode (one of
the menu choices when installing Exim).  Mail to my domains is forwarded
to Newsguy.  I get most of the benefits of running my own email server
without having to administer an Internet-facing server.  I have full
control of filtering and sorting, can use any MUA, and needn't have a
connection up to read or send mail.  Messages I compose while the link
is down go out when it comes up.  All my saved mail is right here on my
machine where I can look through it at will but no one else can.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#229047 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 09:50:34 -0600  John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com>
wrote:

>>  I use Fetchmail to fetch my mail every five minutes from Newsguy.
>> This means that my mail is never on anyone else's server for more
>> than a few minutes.  Fetchmail hands it off to Exim which passes it
>> through Mailagent and Spamassassin and then delivers it to my
>> inbox.  Outgoing mail is delivered to Newsguy by Exim running in
>> smarthost mode (one of the menu choices when installing Exim).  Mail
>> to my domains is forwarded to Newsguy.  I get most of the benefits
>> of running my own email server without having to administer an
>> Internet-facing server.  I have full control of filtering and
>> sorting, can use any MUA, and needn't have a connection up to read
>> or send mail.  Messages I compose while the link is down go out when
>> it comes up.  All my saved mail is right here on my machine where I
>> can look through it at will but no one else can. -- 
>>  John Hasler 
>>  jhasler@newsguy.com
>>  Elmwood, WI USA
>>  

Thanks John. For what it is worth, this has just arrived on my laptop;
I saw it on my phone about 4 hours ago, and have been eagerly awaiting
it.  You might have recognised my reference to it about an hour ago.
But re-reading it, I see I over stated the number of processes you use.

Having used gmail & imap for 15 years, I figure I am way past trying to
prevent prying eyes. I have also 'mislaid' my mail here so often, that
I rely on the server much more than I should. I know that is BAD, and
we lost several weeks of mail off gmail earlier this year, but....

I'll give it a go though, as it sounds like reinstating backed up mail
is easier for when I do loose something. Will I get to leaving nothing
out there?   

Can you point me to a simple how-to, please. As I said to another
response, a good URI is an excellent answer.

Next, what is the most efficient way to search 20,000 plus files for a
string of text, especially when the string may omit an adjective?


Thanks again,
From the other side of the Pacific.


Now where has your reply been hiding?


--

Keith Bainbridge

keith.bainbridge.3216@gmx.com
ke1thozgroups@gmx.com

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#229045 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 23:34:56 -0600  David Wright
<deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:

>>> On Mon 23 Nov 2020 at 14:27:36 (+1100), Keith Bainbridge wrote:
>>> > So does htis get a new subject in the list?

Interesting. I'll try it next time I want to use a comment from one
thread as a separate topic.  BUT I wrote a totally new subject line.
Surely that is removing 'Re: '

I'd appreciate a good explanation if somebody is up to it.

>>>
>>> It would appear so. I guess you could also have removed the Re:
>>> from the subject line.
>>>
>>> > I was interested to read that Flo, the OP, uses separate mail
>>> > collection, sendmail and thunderbird. Some of the replies sound
>>> > like this is a common practice.
>>> >
>>> > What are the advantages of this set of processes over letting
>>> > tbird do it all? - or any other client for that matter?
>>>
>>> Disadvantages of using your email client to send might include:
>>> . sending is relatively instant as the client is dispatching
>>>   it to the same machine, not the remote smarthost,

So I wouldn't get the message saying the note is being sent by the
client - because that bit is 'instantaneous' by being local.

>>> . exim will retry sending if your smarthost is busy/unavailable,

OK. I have had instances of the 'sending' notice being there when I
come back after lunch.

>>> . it keeps logs,

Fair enough

>>> . it send emails on behalf of other processes, like cron jobs,
>>>   where your client is not involved.

Is that why email from cron doesn't happen sometimes, then magically
happens.

>>>
>>> I don't collect emails in Flo's sense, as I use IMAP rather than
>>> POP. So my INBOX is merely mutt's cache of individual emails,
>>> rather than a live mailfile. The actual server is somewhere around
>>> Manchester/Stockport.

I prefer imap as I check mail on 3 devices, but it's become too slow to
be workable, recently.   I do check back occasionally to see if the
connection to Germany is getting better. It is 20,000Km I suppose.

I had this thought as I completed that last sentence: should I use my
ISP as a collection point for my many addresses?


Thanks for a thought provoking response.   I'll be contemplating this
for a bit yet.

--

Keith Bainbridge

keith.bainbridge.3216@gmx.com
ke1thozgroups@gmx.com

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#229060 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 09:30:41AM +1100, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 23:34:56 -0600  David Wright
> <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> >>> On Mon 23 Nov 2020 at 14:27:36 (+1100), Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> >>> > So does htis get a new subject in the list?
> 
> Interesting. I'll try it next time I want to use a comment from one
> thread as a separate topic.  BUT I wrote a totally new subject line.
> Surely that is removing 'Re: '

It's not the Subject: header that matters for thread construction.(*)
It's the In-Reply-To: header, which contains the Message-ID:s of your
parent message(s).

A sufficiently advanced email client (MUA) takes all the messages,
with all of their unique Message-ID:s, and all of their In-Reply-To:
headers, and constructs a tree in memory, with all of the parent/child
relationships laid out explicitly.  Then it presents this tree
structure to you, however it was programmed to do.

(*) Unless you're using Microsoft Outlook or other similar crap.

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#229064 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d

On Wed 25 Nov 2020 at 09:30:41 (+1100), Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 23:34:56 -0600  David Wright wrote:
> >>> On Mon 23 Nov 2020 at 14:27:36 (+1100), Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> >>> > So does htis get a new subject in the list?
> 
> Interesting. I'll try it next time I want to use a comment from one
> thread as a separate topic.  BUT I wrote a totally new subject line.
> Surely that is removing 'Re: '

Oops, sorry, my mistake. I was simultaneously replying to several
emails at too late an hour—your subject line was fine.

> I'd appreciate a good explanation if somebody is up to it.

Of why it starts a new thread? Because there are no References and no
In-reply-to, it doesn't get threaded onto an existing thread.

There's an exception where a client threads a message onto any other
one with a similar subject. I remember this often causing problems
20 years ago when someone would send "Lunch?" expecting an immediate
reply, and the recipient's client would thread it to a months-old
duplicate message.

> >>> It would appear so. [snipped the misleading sentence that was here]
> >>>
> >>> > I was interested to read that Flo, the OP, uses separate mail
> >>> > collection, sendmail and thunderbird. Some of the replies sound
> >>> > like this is a common practice.
> >>> >
> >>> > What are the advantages of this set of processes over letting
> >>> > tbird do it all? - or any other client for that matter?
> >>>
> >>> Disadvantages of using your email client to send might include:
> >>> . sending is relatively instant as the client is dispatching
> >>>   it to the same machine, not the remote smarthost,
> 
> So I wouldn't get the message saying the note is being sent by the
> client - because that bit is 'instantaneous' by being local.

I must have been half-asleep: that's poorly expressed.
Each bullet point is meant to be an advantage of using an MTA,
and a disadvantage of sending direct from client to smarthost.

So bullet point 1 ought to say:
  . sending [via an MTA]  is relatively instant as the client is dispatching
    it [the email] to the [MTA, running on the] same machine, not the remote smarthost,

What you would observe in the two cases is (using mutt as an example):

  With an MTA, the email is transferred almost immediately to the MTA
  running on the same machine, and the client says "Mail sent".

  With sending direct, some messages will flicker by as communication
  is established with the smarthost; with large emails, there'll be a
  pause while the file is transferred; then a couple more messages and
  finally "Mail sent". On this computer, the mutt debug logs show that
  sending a trivial email takes between 2 and 7 seconds, mostly
  related to starting up the connection.

  My transfer speeds (by cable) are very good nowadays. A decade ago
  in the UK, with several miles to the exchange going over copper,
  speeds were fairly dire (until FTTC arrived). Large attachments
  could take a while to get out.

> >>> . exim will retry sending if your smarthost is busy/unavailable,
> 
> OK. I have had instances of the 'sending' notice being there when I
> come back after lunch.
> 
> >>> . it keeps logs,
> 
> Fair enough
> 
> >>> . it send emails on behalf of other processes, like cron jobs,
> >>>   where your client is not involved.
> 
> Is that why email from cron doesn't happen sometimes, then magically
> happens.

I would hesitate to guess without more information.

> >>> I don't collect emails in Flo's sense, as I use IMAP rather than
> >>> POP. So my INBOX is merely mutt's cache of individual emails,
> >>> rather than a live mailfile. The actual server is somewhere around
> >>> Manchester/Stockport.
> 
> I prefer imap as I check mail on 3 devices, but it's become too slow to
> be workable, recently.   I do check back occasionally to see if the
> connection to Germany is getting better. It is 20,000Km I suppose.

That beats my 7000km (over a very fat pipe).

IMAP is designed to be interactive, and fetch each email when you ask
for it. But you can cheat. One way with mutt is to use "search in
message bodies" for some "impossible" string (like a long random one),
and then go and make the coffee. The client is forced to fetch and
cache all the unread emails while searching for the string. When you
return, you'll be able to read new messages instantaneously because
they're already cached.

> I had this thought as I completed that last sentence: should I use my
> ISP as a collection point for my many addresses?

Personally, I prefer to keep my email hosting separate from my ISP.
It's one less complication when travelling, changing service provider,
or moving home or job.

> Thanks for a thought provoking response.   I'll be contemplating this
> for a bit yet.

I hope I was a bit clearer.

Cheers,
David.

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#228950 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid the hijack?

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Lu, 23 nov 20, 14:27:36, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> So does htis get a new subject in the list?
> 
> Good afternon All
> 
> I was interested to read that Flo, the OP, uses separate mail
> collection, sendmail and thunderbird. Some of the replies sound like
> this is a common practice.
> 
> What are the advantages of this set of processes over letting tbird do
> it all? - or any other client for that matter?

It makes it easier to switch between different e-mail clients if the 
sending and/or receiving is handled externally, e.g. one might use a 
graphical e-mail client in general and a text mode client occasionally.

Such a setup also typically uses standard locations for the storage (as 
opposed to e-mail client specific), which makes it easier to add more 
functionality (e.g. serve local e-mail via IMAP) or replace individual 
components.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#229044 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 14:19:16 +0200  Andrei POPESCU
<andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> On Lu, 23 nov 20, 14:27:36, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
>>> > So does htis get a new subject in the list?
>>> >
>>> > Good afternon All
>>> >
>>> > I was interested to read that Flo, the OP, uses separate mail
>>> > collection, sendmail and thunderbird. Some of the replies sound
>>> > like this is a common practice.
>>> >
>>> > What are the advantages of this set of processes over letting
>>> > tbird do it all? - or any other client for that matter?
>>>
>>> It makes it easier to switch between different e-mail clients if
>>> the sending and/or receiving is handled externally, e.g. one might
>>> use a graphical e-mail client in general and a text mode client
>>> occasionally.
>>>
>>> Such a setup also typically uses standard locations for the storage
>>> (as opposed to e-mail client specific), which makes it easier to
>>> add more functionality (e.g. serve local e-mail via IMAP) or
>>> replace individual components.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Andrei
>>> --
>>> http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

Thanks for your reply. I have been contemplating

I have switched email client often in the past, less so lately.

I like the idea of a local imap server. I have a RPi that will do the
job, sitting ready and waiting.  How easy is it to get phone/tablet to
connect while I'm away? though.  A good URI would be an excellent
answer.

Thanks again for replying.

--

Keith Bainbridge

keith.bainbridge.3216@gmx.com
ke1thozgroups@gmx.com

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#229054 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:30:49 +1100
Keith Bainbridge <ke1thozgroups@gmx.com> wrote:


> 
> I like the idea of a local imap server. I have a RPi that will do the
> job, sitting ready and waiting.  How easy is it to get phone/tablet to
> connect while I'm away? though.  A good URI would be an excellent
> answer.
> 

Less so than with an external email provider.

I prefer not to open email collection ports to the Net, so I use ssh
with keys and port forwarding, on a non-standard port to keep the logs
cleaner. I forward both web and the email ports, so I can either use a
proper email client or webmail. I have to admit I use a netbook while
away from home, as I have both "smart"phone and tablet, but they are
extremely limited toys and they are owned by Google. If I need a mobile
computer, then I want a real computer, and one where I have root
access. 

I'm in the process of building a couple of RPi servers to replace my
HP microserver, and the mail server seems to be running OK. I have
exim4 as the MTA, dovecot for IMAP and Roundcube for webmail. Roundcube
requires an SQL database, and I'm running MariaDB for other reasons, and
it's happy with that. It's also running bind9, as I'm sending and
receiving email directly and need a good local DNS service.

-- 
Joe

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#229061 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:03:21 +0000
Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

...

> proper email client or webmail. I have to admit I use a netbook while
> away from home, as I have both "smart"phone and tablet, but they are
> extremely limited toys and they are owned by Google. If I need a mobile
> computer, then I want a real computer, and one where I have root
> access. 

A smartphone running something like LineageOS is not really owned by
Google (although there are still the very real problems of binary blobs
and the baseband black box stuff). If you get one with an unlocked
bootloader, you can have root as well. They're certainly not quite the
same thing as a "real" computer, admittedly.

Celejar

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#229079 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:13:03 -0500
Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:03:21 +0000
> Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> > proper email client or webmail. I have to admit I use a netbook
> > while away from home, as I have both "smart"phone and tablet, but
> > they are extremely limited toys and they are owned by Google. If I
> > need a mobile computer, then I want a real computer, and one where
> > I have root access.   
> 
> A smartphone running something like LineageOS is not really owned by
> Google (although there are still the very real problems of binary
> blobs and the baseband black box stuff). If you get one with an
> unlocked bootloader, you can have root as well. They're certainly not
> quite the same thing as a "real" computer, admittedly.
>

I'm not really comfortable about downloading a random rooting tool from
the Net, and I have the impression, rightly or wrongly, that writers of
software for phones and tablets take the same kind of proprietorial
view of other peoples' devices as writers of Windows software.

That's my main objection to using Windows: not so much the OS itself as
the tendency for writers of software to believe that they own *my*
computer, and can do what they like with it and with my data.

-- 
Joe

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#229082 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 20:11:29 +0000
Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:13:03 -0500
> Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:03:21 +0000
> > Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > > proper email client or webmail. I have to admit I use a netbook
> > > while away from home, as I have both "smart"phone and tablet, but
> > > they are extremely limited toys and they are owned by Google. If I
> > > need a mobile computer, then I want a real computer, and one where
> > > I have root access.   
> > 
> > A smartphone running something like LineageOS is not really owned by
> > Google (although there are still the very real problems of binary
> > blobs and the baseband black box stuff). If you get one with an
> > unlocked bootloader, you can have root as well. They're certainly not
> > quite the same thing as a "real" computer, admittedly.
> >
> 
> I'm not really comfortable about downloading a random rooting tool from

Fair points, certainly. But things like LineageOS, TWRP, and Magisk are
not just "random rooting tools" - they are legitimate, well-established
open source projects (although I would concede that they are probably
somewhat less "adult" and responsible than something like the Debian
project we know and love ;))

> the Net, and I have the impression, rightly or wrongly, that writers of
> software for phones and tablets take the same kind of proprietorial
> view of other peoples' devices as writers of Windows software.

Well, that's probably true of developers in the mainstream smartphone
ecosystems, but I don't think it is generally true of the FLOSS
developers for such devices, and particularly not with regard to the
members of sub-communities like F-Droid.

> That's my main objection to using Windows: not so much the OS itself as
> the tendency for writers of software to believe that they own *my*
> computer, and can do what they like with it and with my data.

Certainly.

Celejar

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#229055 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid the hijack?

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 00:08:27 +0000
mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2020-11-23 12:19, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > On Lu, 23 nov 20, 14:27:36, Keith Bainbridge wrote:  
> >> So does htis get a new subject in the list?
> >> 
> >> Good afternon All
> >> 
> >> I was interested to read that Flo, the OP, uses separate mail
> >> collection, sendmail and thunderbird. Some of the replies sound
> >> like this is a common practice.
> >> 
> >> What are the advantages of this set of processes over letting
> >> tbird do it all? - or any other client for that matter?  
> > 
> > It makes it easier to switch between different e-mail clients if the
> > sending and/or receiving is handled externally, e.g. one might use a
> > graphical e-mail client in general and a text mode client
> > occasionally.
> > 
> > Such a setup also typically uses standard locations for the storage
> > (as opposed to e-mail client specific), which makes it easier to
> > add more functionality (e.g. serve local e-mail via IMAP) or
> > replace individual components.  
> 
> As I can make out if you try to do the useful stuff on your home
> network like having Dovecot doing your mail it is really a bodge if
> you are not advertising those services on the internet.

As I've posted elsewhere, I run my own servers and don't open the email
ports to the world (other than SMTP). I use ssh with port forwarding to
reach email from outside, or occasionally OpenVPN.

> I am I suppose in the domain of Sky who provide my wired connection
> so I use sky/yahoo SMTP server as part of service but they add to
> outgoing email "Reply-Path" being my Sky user account in the headers
> which seems to be confusing exim email lists and results in rejected
> or bounced emails recently.
> I'd like to sort it out to avoid that if I knew what they were doing.
> I like things as they are when it is working and really, really don't
> want to go the whole hog of advertising email services. I think it is
> some relatively new thing where they are double authenticating or
> something but ideally I don't know why SMTP server does just pass
> message along and not add items to the header except they received it
> and passed it along to the recipient.

As it happens outside your control, there's not a lot you can do about
it other than hire an email service that is fairly professional i.e.
not a domestic service whose primary client base is children (of all
ages). A lot of domestic providers insist that you send using one of
their email addresses, which doesn't suit everyone. I lease a few
domains and I expect to use them for my email addresses.

-- 
Joe

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#229096 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid the hijack?

On Wed 25 Nov 2020 at 00:08:27 (+0000), mick crane wrote:
> On 2020-11-23 12:19, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > On Lu, 23 nov 20, 14:27:36, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> > > I was interested to read that Flo, the OP, uses separate mail
> > > collection, sendmail and thunderbird. Some of the replies sound like
> > > this is a common practice.
> > > 
> > > What are the advantages of this set of processes over letting tbird do
> > > it all? - or any other client for that matter?
> > 
> > It makes it easier to switch between different e-mail clients if the
> > sending and/or receiving is handled externally, e.g. one might use a
> > graphical e-mail client in general and a text mode client occasionally.
> > 
> > Such a setup also typically uses standard locations for the storage (as
> > opposed to e-mail client specific), which makes it easier to add more
> > functionality (e.g. serve local e-mail via IMAP) or replace individual
> > components.
> 
> As I can make out if you try to do the useful stuff on your home network
> like having Dovecot doing your mail it is really a bodge if you are
> not advertising those services on the internet.

Apart from any security considerations, you'd need to be running your
server 24/7 if it's going to receive mail from random MTAs across the
globe. We run our modem and routers 24/7 (and my old modem burnt out
recently after 7 years) but I'm not prepared to run my old computers
like that.

> I am I suppose in the domain of Sky who provide my wired connection so
> I use sky/yahoo SMTP server as part of service but they add to
> outgoing email "Reply-Path" being my Sky user account in the headers
> which seems to be confusing exim email lists and results in rejected
> or bounced emails recently.

We only see the accepted emails, of course, and I can see that you
changed something late last year in the way you submit your posts.
I'm not sure why that change would cause rejection or bounces.

I had to make a similar change more recently. Submitting to my ISP
now necessitates using an ISP account as the Envelope-from in order to
authorise a submission (even though the connection has already been
authenticated with the same ISP account *and* password). That works
fine at home, though it's untested when travelling.

> I'd like to sort it out to avoid that if I knew what they were doing.
> I like things as they are when it is working and really, really don't
> want to go the whole hog of advertising email services. I think it is
> some relatively new thing where they are double authenticating or
> something but ideally I don't know why SMTP server does just pass
> message along and not add items to the header except they received it
> and passed it along to the recipient.

Perhaps the problem is similar to the one I had with this list
(hence the change I made above). What happened was that my posts'
Envelope-from (set to the same as my From address above) was being
changed by my mail hosting service to an address on their outgoing
mail gateway. AIUI Debian immediately tries to establish an email
connection to that address on port 25 to verify it exists, but the
outgoing gateway apparently is not an incoming mail receiver, and
is not listening on port 25. So Debian rejects the post.

Hence my change in mail submission for this list, from using my
email hosting service to my ISP instead.

What sort of rejections and/or bounces have you had?

Cheers,
David.

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#229104

On 2020-11-26 03:57, David Wright wrote:
<snipped>
> What sort of rejections and/or bounces have you had?

It showed up that mails to getmail list that uses Exim were refused as 
unsubscribed whereas before was OK.
I "think" I then subscribed with noctilucent@sky.com which worked for a 
bit but then from list to me bounced.
"Remote host said: 554 5.7.9 Message not accepted for policy reasons"
using Sky/Yahoo SMTP it seems to add "Return-Path:" as being 
noctilucent@sky.com.
Then subscribed to getmail list "from" gmail and other hosted domain 
address
and welcomed as subscribed as "noctilucent@sky.com".

I only know enough about this stuff to get it working and then promptly 
forget.
Unsure of the etiquette of using other SMTP servers.
This is all using local, not the newest, roundcube for reading/sending.

cheers mick
-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#229158 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid the hijack?

On Thu 26 Nov 2020 at 08:52:30 (+0000), mick crane wrote:
> On 2020-11-26 03:57, David Wright wrote:
> <snipped>
> > What sort of rejections and/or bounces have you had?
> 
> It showed up that mails to getmail list that uses Exim were refused as
> unsubscribed whereas before was OK.

I take it that was late last year when your Envelope-from appears to
have changed.

> I "think" I then subscribed with noctilucent@sky.com which worked for
> a bit but then from list to me bounced.

Is noctilucent@sky.com an email address that you can/do use, or
is it just an account with Sky?

> "Remote host said: 554 5.7.9 Message not accepted for policy reasons"

Was that response from a List → you-at-Sky message? If so, shouldn't
you ask Sky, particular if you have had success before with sending to
this address (as you wrote "worked for a bit").

> using Sky/Yahoo SMTP it seems to add "Return-Path:" as being
> noctilucent@sky.com.

That should indicate that you used noctilucent@sky.com as your
Envelope-from. Was this a concious decision, or did you just
find it to be so? That setting might be obligatory when using
their SMTP server. (For example, it is with my ISP's.)

> Then subscribed to getmail list "from" gmail and other hosted domain
> address
> and welcomed as subscribed as "noctilucent@sky.com".

I don't know what any of these organisations use to determine the
"subscribed address". Rather than subscribing by sending an email
(which might contain other, confusing addresses) you can usually
find a web page with a subscription box. Typically, the list then
sends an email to the address you typed, as a challenge for you
to respond to, proving that the address is correct and the
subscription desired. If you ignore it, then the subscription
gets cancelled and you can have another go.

> I only know enough about this stuff to get it working and then
> promptly forget.

Yeah—that's not usually a recipe for success.

> Unsure of the etiquette of using other SMTP servers.

Obviously for you to be able to use some random SMTP server, you'd
need some sort of credentials for authorisation/authentication, as
well as being able to connect to the appropriate ports through your
ISP (which is not guaranteed).

If you've logged into some webmail system to read your emails,
it's likely that they use those login credentials to allow you
to send as well (subject to their T&C).

> This is all using local, not the newest, roundcube for reading/sending.

I've not used roundcube. I take it that "using local" means that
you've got something like apache running on your own machine (rather
than using a web service provided by some website). In which case,
you've probably had to set up some hostnames, ports, and credentials
for your ISP's POP and SMTP servers.

I don't know whether any of this helps with whatever problems you've
been having.

Cheers,
David.

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#229107 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid the hijack?

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 21:57:10 -0600
David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:


> Perhaps the problem is similar to the one I had with this list
> (hence the change I made above). What happened was that my posts'
> Envelope-from (set to the same as my From address above) was being
> changed by my mail hosting service to an address on their outgoing
> mail gateway. AIUI Debian immediately tries to establish an email
> connection to that address on port 25 to verify it exists, but the
> outgoing gateway apparently is not an incoming mail receiver, and
> is not listening on port 25. So Debian rejects the post.
> 

There should/need be no Envelope-From header in an email as sent, it is
inserted by the receiving SMTP server as a copy of the sending address
as used in the SMTP transaction, something which is not a sent header
and that would not otherwise be available to the end recipient.

An SMTP sending server does not need to also receive email. Large
businesses often use separate servers for send and receive, and often
contract out one or both functions to different companies e.g. mass
mailers and spam cleaning services. It should not be assumed that the
MX record for a domain matches its sending address.

What Debian's mail server might well do is to look up the sending
server's HELO/EHLO, sending address and IP address in public DNS, and
refuse or delay emails with missing or incorrect records. Exim4 by
default has rules (thought not enabled by default) for checking these
things with a view to refusing transactions with spammers.

-- 
Joe

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#229159 — Re: Why use an email client AND sendmail/popa3d - Does this avoid the hijack?

On Thu 26 Nov 2020 at 09:34:25 (+0000), Joe wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 21:57:10 -0600 David Wright wrote:
> 
> > Perhaps the problem is similar to the one I had with this list
> > (hence the change I made above). What happened was that my posts'
> > Envelope-from (set to the same as my From address above) was being
> > changed by my mail hosting service to an address on their outgoing
> > mail gateway. AIUI Debian immediately tries to establish an email
> > connection to that address on port 25 to verify it exists, but the
> > outgoing gateway apparently is not an incoming mail receiver, and
> > is not listening on port 25. So Debian rejects the post.
> > 
> There should/need be no Envelope-From header in an email as sent, it is
> inserted by the receiving SMTP server as a copy of the sending address
> as used in the SMTP transaction, something which is not a sent header
> and that would not otherwise be available to the end recipient.

When you say "no Envelope-From header", I guess your asking me to make
it clearer in my post that I'm not discussing the email headers at all,
but only the envelope. However, in order to find out what the Envelope-from
of an email was, you have to examine the headers for clues.

Exim uses the term Envelope-from, as seen in your own posts, and
I guess that the number of names "it" has been given reflects the
uses to which it's put. The wiki page lists: return path,
reverse path,  envelope from, envelope sender, MAIL FROM, 5321-FROM,
return address, From_, Errors-to, etc [sic], and the page's own name:
Bounce address. The page continues:
   "It is not uncommon for a single document to use several of these
    names. All of these names refer to the email address provided with
    the MAIL FROM command during the SMTP session.
    Ordinarily, the bounce address is not seen by email users and,
    without standardization of the name, it may cause confusion."

> An SMTP sending server does not need to also receive email. Large
> businesses often use separate servers for send and receive, and often
> contract out one or both functions to different companies e.g. mass
> mailers and spam cleaning services. It should not be assumed that the
> MX record for a domain matches its sending address.

Yes, that's the case here. AFAICT there are three hosts involved in
providing my service: an outgoing, an incoming, and the one hosting
my IMAP and SMTP servers. (There may be others involved in, say,
scanning that I don't know about.)

> What Debian's mail server might well do is to look up the sending
> server's HELO/EHLO, sending address and IP address in public DNS, and
> refuse or delay emails with missing or incorrect records. Exim4 by
> default has rules (thought not enabled by default) for checking these
> things with a view to refusing transactions with spammers.

Yes, some of that information may be difficult to control oneself
(I think you also said that), and it's not always clear exactly
how it was used (ie which bits did they look up, and where)
in order to accept or reject it. AFAICT, in my case, Debian
couldn't get a satisfactory response to its RCPT TO command to
what you've termed the "sending address" (which is what I've been
calling the Envelope-from).

I don't have any idea why the Envelope-from that I set should be
changed to something else in the transfer to bendel.debian.org,
so that's something for me to research when I have the time and
inclination. Debian-user is the only address where I have this
problem with submission. Contemporaneous postings to a gnu.org
list show no change in Envelope-from in the equivalent transfer
from my gateway to eggs.gnu.org, the list's incoming host, nor
even next transfer to lists.gnu.org, the list processor itself.

What's really difficult to tell is whether there's something in
the responses from Debian-user that's causing the change at my
gateway. For example, there may be some unseen exchanges between
the two ends in connection with greylisting.

Cheers,
David.

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