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Installation and other problems ... [20 questions game].

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  Installation and other problems ... [20 questions game]. "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-03-06 12:50 +0100
    Re: Installation and other problems ... [20 questions game]. David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2021-03-06 13:40 +0100
    Re: Installation and other problems ... [20 questions game]. Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-06 14:10 +0100
    Part 2 {Re: Installation and other problems ... [20 questions game]} Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-03-06 16:50 +0100
      Re: Part 2 {Re: Installation and other problems ... [20 questions  game]} "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-03-06 19:40 +0100
        Re: Part 2 {Re: Installation and other problems ... [20 questions game]} IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-03-06 20:00 +0100
    Re: Installation and other problems ... [20 questions game]. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-07 06:50 +0100

#232447 — Installation and other problems ... [20 questions game].

Hi Richard,

Looking at the threads from you over the last year+: I think I see a common
pattern.

* You're the person that buys DVD sets from [somewhere] to install from, I 
think

* You have issues with the install processes

* You're prepared to stick to old software that works but have difficulty
getting the newer software to stick on any machine.

* Everybody who is trying to help on the list is using newer software

* The issues you bring to the list tend to end up in a huge pile of mutual 
misunderstandings

* You don't like WiFi?

* You have more than one machine such that references to them get confusing.

Let me try and help narrow down some of the scope of what you're asking and 
then see if we can help you on the debian-user list. Maybe you could: 

Pick one machine that you're wanting to install Debian on. [Just Debian, 
for the moment]. 

This is a game of twenty questions

What's this machine going to be FOR?

1. What's the end goal for that machine? What do you want to use it for? 

2. What desktop environment do you want on it? 

3. What other software are you likely to need? 
[If you've some idea of this up front and it's a defined goal - we can break 
it into steps] 

4. ** Will it need to dual boot another OS eventually **

[5. Give it a friendly name we can refer back to in subsequent exchanges :-) ]

The physical machine:

1. What model is it? Any idea how old? Laptop/desktop?

2. Is it capable of running 64 bit software?

3. How much memory does it have [RAM]?

4. How much disk does it have [GB]? How many disks? 

5. What video controller does it have [if known]

6. What ports or connectors does the machine have externally?

Installation:

Internet provider
-----------------

1. What internet bandwidth do you have available to you to do this? [Claimed
max speed / real speed you get]

2. That bandwidth gets to you how? Wired? Satellite? 4G connectivity? 

3.Is that bandwidth shared between lots of devices - can you spare 
bandwidth/time for installation for this new machine?

4. Do you have an all inclusive plan for data/phone? 

5. Do you have a data cap? [Or a practical limit where you can only download
X MB of data in six hours or so so large downloads are impractical].

Connecting to the ISP supplied device - the Alcatel?

1. What interface is provided by the device that the ISP has given you? 

2. How do you control the ISP device to change settings / check connectivity?

3. Do you have a second device which you can use to connect to the ISP's device to check

Given that we can't actually sit by your side to do this: answers to some of 
these in order may help us figure out exactly how to go from here.

All the very best,

Andy C.

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#232448

On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 at 22:46, Andrew M.A. Cater <amacater@einval.com> wrote:

> Looking at the threads from you over the last year+:
> I think I see a common pattern.

This has been going on since 2015 or so.

> Given that we can't actually sit by your side to do this: answers to some of
> these in order may help us figure out exactly how to go from here.

A few years ago I figured out that if I can't answer in 10 seconds,
then it's best to avoid adding to endless, useless threads.

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#232449

On 03/06/2021 05:46 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> Hi Richard,

Hi yourself.
Just how did you know I'd just finished my first cup of coffee?
   as one well past 'three score and ten' it's decaf :{

> 
> Looking at the threads from you over the last year+: I think I see a common
> pattern.

Yep. Been trying to define what the specification of the Debian 
installer _should_ be since the days of Squeeze and abandonment of M$.

> 
> * You're the person that buys DVD sets from [somewhere] to install from, I
> think

I have lots of flashy tree ornaments on my bookcases.
They *WERE* an absolute necessity back when I was on dial-up.
I was one of my ISP's last 5 dial-up customers before going with 
T-Mobile 4G service.

> 
> * You have issues with the install processes

Not so much the process, but with Debian's quixotic attempt to be
"ALL things to ALL people ALL of the time".

I've *never* had any problem installing from DVD1 (or image thereof). 
That's been on a half dozen or more machines. In my early attempts to 
define what Debian's installation process SHOULD look like, I did as 
many as 15 installs from scratch in a week.

> 
> * You're prepared to stick to old software that works but have difficulty
> getting the newer software to stick on any machine.

*NO* The problem is solely with my recent attempt to use the netinstall 
iso. IIRC I had used it a couple of time years years ago.

> 
> * Everybody who is trying to help on the list is using newer software

I typically have moved to a new release about its second or third point 
release. This time it's later than usual as I am considering moving from 
32 bit to 64 (which all of my machines can handle).

> 
> * The issues you bring to the list tend to end up in a huge pile of mutual
> misunderstandings

True

> 
> * You don't like WiFi?

It does not have any benefit and I see it as a potential gross security 
chasm. It's not worth any effort to use.

> 
> * You have more than one machine such that references to them get confusing.

I've only referred to more than one machine to demonstrate that my 
problems are machine independent.

I'll answer "20 questions" after lunch.
I've places to go and things to do.
See you folks later.
Thank you.

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#232450 — Part 2 {Re: Installation and other problems ... [20 questions game]}

On 03/06/2021 05:46 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> [snip what I responded to in the previous reply]
> 
> Let me try and help narrow down some of the scope of what you're asking and
> then see if we can help you on the debian-user list. Maybe you could:
> 
> Pick one machine that you're wanting to install Debian on. [Just Debian,
> for the moment].

That will be my Dell Latitude E6410 which I use everyday. At the moment 
I'm running the i386 flavor of Debian 9.13. It also has the AMD64 flavor 
of Debian 10.0 . Both installed from relevant DVD1.

I do this for two reasons.
First, it proves I can run Debian configured "my way".
Second, it makes all installation logs conveniently available.

> 
> This is a game of twenty questions
> 
> What's this machine going to be FOR?
> 
> 1. What's the end goal for that machine? What do you want to use it for?

The immediate goal is diagnosing the problem of netinst.iso not 
accessing the web for required packages.
Next will be fine tuning a preseed.cfg to simplify having the system 
that suits my peculiar set of software preferences.
Long term will be collecting questions to be asked by an upgraded Debian 
installer.

> 
> 2. What desktop environment do you want on it?

A very lean MATE.

> 
> 3. What other software are you likely to need?
> [If you've some idea of this up front and it's a defined goal - we can break
> it into steps]

That problem was solved long ago. Its called Synaptic.

> 
> 4. ** Will it need to dual boot another OS eventually **

It will be multiboot from the start. I've been doing that with no 
problems since Squeeze.

> 
> 5. Give it a friendly name we can refer back to in subsequent exchanges :-)

"Dell" as it is the only Dell laptop I own. My other machines are 
ThinkPads and one custom ordered desktop now collecting dust.

> 
> The physical machine:
> 
> 1. What model is it? Any idea how old? Laptop/desktop?

A used Dell Latitude E6410 laptop purchased as a refurbished machine a 
few years ago.

> 
> 2. Is it capable of running 64 bit software?

Yes

> 
> 3. How much memory does it have [RAM]?

4GB

> 
> 4. How much disk does it have [GB]? How many disks?

Internally a 150 GB HDD with ~32 GB free.
I have a collection of external drives available.
I can dedicate a 64 GB flash drive (still in bubble pack ;)

> 
> 5. What video controller does it have [if known]
> 
> 6. What ports or connectors does the machine have externally?

Two USB ports are available
> 
> Installation:
> 
> Internet provider
> -----------------
> 
> 1. What internet bandwidth do you have available to you to do this? [Claimed
> max speed / real speed you get]

Unknown. Suspect speed is limited to USB2 bandwidth.

> 
> 2. That bandwidth gets to you how? Wired? Satellite? 4G connectivity?
> 
> 3.Is that bandwidth shared between lots of devices - can you spare
> bandwidth/time for installation for this new machine?

Used only by this machine. After bug report is created I will continue 
to use purchased point releases. It is inescapably more convenient.

> 
> 4. Do you have an all inclusive plan for data/phone?

I have never owned a so-called smart phone. Screens too small to be legible.

> 
> 5. Do you have a data cap? [Or a practical limit where you can only download
> X MB of data in six hours or so so large downloads are impractical].

Speed is acceptable. I have enough data cap space for an install using 
netinst.iso .

> 
> Connecting to the ISP supplied device - the Alcatel?

Yes

> 
> 1. What interface is provided by the device that the ISP has given you?

*SOLD* I own it outright. The connection is USB.

> 
> 2. How do you control the ISP device to change settings / check connectivity?

There is an app for that ;}

> 
> 3. Do you have a second device which you can use to connect to the ISP's device to check

My service is tied exclusively to that device.

> 
> Given that we can't actually sit by your side

Part of the reason I multiboot this operation. It makes error logs 
trivial to pass on.

One thing that explains why narrowly focus my question is that I have 
decades in field support - some as field service some as engineering 
tech support. At times the distinction has been rather fuzzy.

> to do this: answers to some of
> these in order may help us figure out exactly how to go from here.

TIA

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#232454 — Re: Part 2 {Re: Installation and other problems ... [20 questions game]}

On Sat, Mar 06, 2021 at 09:32:11AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 03/06/2021 05:46 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > [snip what I responded to in the previous reply]
> > 
> > Let me try and help narrow down some of the scope of what you're asking and
> > then see if we can help you on the debian-user list. Maybe you could:
> > 
> > Pick one machine that you're wanting to install Debian on. [Just Debian,
> > for the moment].
> 
> That will be my Dell Latitude E6410 which I use everyday. At the moment I'm
> running the i386 flavor of Debian 9.13. It also has the AMD64 flavor of
> Debian 10.0 . Both installed from relevant DVD1.
> 
As others have said: you could just use apt-get update / Synaptic to bring 
the 10.0 up to 10.8. 

> I do this for two reasons.
> First, it proves I can run Debian configured "my way".
> Second, it makes all installation logs conveniently available.
> 
> > 
> > This is a game of twenty questions
> > 
> > What's this machine going to be FOR?
> > 
> > 1. What's the end goal for that machine? What do you want to use it for?
> 
> The immediate goal is diagnosing the problem of netinst.iso not accessing
> the web for required packages.

The Dell E6410 has Ethernet. It also has Intel WiFi. Installing iwlwifi and 
using WiFi would solve your problem here, potentially. Using the non-free
unofficial firmware CD might also help, as this might contain any other 
firmware needed. 
[Using the 4G hotspot in the most usual manner.]

I'm not sure what protocol would be running over the USB2 interface - maybe
PPTP - equivalent to some of the dial-up protocols.

> Next will be fine tuning a preseed.cfg to simplify having the system that
> suits my peculiar set of software preferences.

Install [using the expert mode which will ask all the questions] a minimal 
text only system: add software by hand thereafter?

> Long term will be collecting questions to be asked by an upgraded Debian
> installer.

You are essentially creating a system for yourself: do you see that this
would be useful to others?

> 
> > 
> > 2. What desktop environment do you want on it?
> 
> A very lean MATE.
> 
> > 
> > 3. What other software are you likely to need?
> > [If you've some idea of this up front and it's a defined goal - we can break
> > it into steps]
> 
> That problem was solved long ago. Its called Synaptic.
> 
Just checked: Synaptic is maintained :)

> > 
> > 4. ** Will it need to dual boot another OS eventually **
> 
> It will be multiboot from the start. I've been doing that with no problems
> since Squeeze.
> 
So it will boot 2x Debian - at different releases?

> > 
> > 5. Give it a friendly name we can refer back to in subsequent exchanges :-)
> 
> "Dell" as it is the only Dell laptop I own. My other machines are ThinkPads
> and one custom ordered desktop now collecting dust.
> 
> > 
> > The physical machine:
> > 
> > 1. What model is it? Any idea how old? Laptop/desktop?
> 
> A used Dell Latitude E6410 laptop purchased as a refurbished machine a few
> years ago.
> 
> > 
> > 2. Is it capable of running 64 bit software?
> 
> Yes
> 
> > 
> > 3. How much memory does it have [RAM]?
> 
> 4GB
> 
Maybe OK for Mate - slightly low for heavier weight desktops / significant 
additional dependencies.

> > 
> > 4. How much disk does it have [GB]? How many disks?
> 
> Internally a 150 GB HDD with ~32 GB free.

32G free is fairly small space for a full featured Debian, potentially. Would you be looking to replace either of the Debian copies already installed?

> I have a collection of external drives available.
> I can dedicate a 64 GB flash drive (still in bubble pack ;)
> 
See elsewhere on debian-user, debian-boot etc. - installing entirely to flash
drive may be less than performant especially if anything needs to swap.

> > 
> > 5. What video controller does it have [if known]

Intel
> > 
> > 6. What ports or connectors does the machine have externally?
> 
> Two USB ports are available
> > 
> > Installation:
> > 
> > Internet provider
> > -----------------
> > 
> > 1. What internet bandwidth do you have available to you to do this? [Claimed
> > max speed / real speed you get]
> 
> Unknown. Suspect speed is limited to USB2 bandwidth.

What speed do T Mobile claim that you are paying for / that you can download 
at? (They are probably assuming usage of WiFi here)
> 
> > 
> > 2. That bandwidth gets to you how? Wired? Satellite? 4G connectivity?

Ultimately via 4G connectivity - mediated via USB2
> > 
> > 3.Is that bandwidth shared between lots of devices - can you spare
> > bandwidth/time for installation for this new machine?
> 
> Used only by this machine. After bug report is created I will continue to
> use purchased point releases. It is inescapably more convenient.
> 
> > 
> > 4. Do you have an all inclusive plan for data/phone?
> 
> I have never owned a so-called smart phone. Screens too small to be legible.
> 
> > 
> > 5. Do you have a data cap? [Or a practical limit where you can only download
> > X MB of data in six hours or so so large downloads are impractical].
> 
> Speed is acceptable. I have enough data cap space for an install using
> netinst.iso . 

That could be a few GB download ...
> 
> > 
> > Connecting to the ISP supplied device - the Alcatel?
> 
> Yes
> 
> > 
> > 1. What interface is provided by the device that the ISP has given you?
> 
> *SOLD* I own it outright. The connection is USB.
> 
> > 
> > 2. How do you control the ISP device to change settings / check connectivity?
> 
> There is an app for that ;}
> 
> > 
> > 3. Do you have a second device which you can use to connect to the ISP's device to check
> 
> My service is tied exclusively to that device. 

So: if you want to check connectivity / speed: most ISP provided internet 
connected modem/router/access points have a web page to interface: you have 
no other device to check/change settings at the same time you're installing?
> 
> > 
> > Given that we can't actually sit by your side
> 
> Part of the reason I multiboot this operation. It makes error logs trivial
> to pass on.
> 
> One thing that explains why narrowly focus my question is that I have
> decades in field support - some as field service some as engineering tech
> support. At times the distinction has been rather fuzzy.
> 
> > to do this: answers to some of
> > these in order may help us figure out exactly how to go from here.
> 
> TIA
> 
> 
[Some comments added by me after looking up details of the Dell on the 'Net].

So: 

What do you _actually_ want to do, here. Be specific, if you can.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy C.

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#232455 — Re: Part 2 {Re: Installation and other problems ... [20 questions game]}

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

>
> I'm not sure what protocol would be running over the USB2 interface - maybe
> PPTP - equivalent to some of the dial-up protocols.
>

A small note: PPTP works on top of IP, it is a VPN protocol.
It encapsulates PPP protocol (which I believe you were talking about).

PPP can run IP over point-to-point connections like VPNs or serial/com
ports (connected either directly or with dial up modems).
There are alot of serial ports for USB and Linux supports them:
https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/usb/usb-serial.html
So, it should be possible to run PPP-over-usb with a usb serial converter.

There are ethernet adapters for USB, but not of all of them are supported
by Linux

https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-USB-Ethernet-Network-Adapter/dp/B00M77HLII

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#232472

On Sat 06 Mar 2021 at 11:46:33 (+0000), Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> Hi Richard,
> 
> Looking at the threads from you over the last year+: I think I see a common
> pattern.
> 
> * You're the person that buys DVD sets from [somewhere] to install from, I 
> think

Thats right.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/06/msg00225.html

"As I have restricted bandwidth and DVD set are available on flash
devices, I recently purchased Debian 10.0 for AMD64."

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/02/msg00002.html

"I have just installed Debian 10.7 to my Lenovo T510 Thinkpad having
copied debian-10.7.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso to a flash drive [the machine is
intentionally isolated from the internet]."

> * You have issues with the install processes

That's right, for example,

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/04/msg00076.html

> * You're prepared to stick to old software that works but have difficulty
> getting the newer software to stick on any machine.

Not so much newer software as newer methods. I want to use netinst,
but I'm not networked.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/msg00135.html

"2. a laptop onto which I wish to install Debian using a netinst.iso ."

> * Everybody who is trying to help on the list is using newer software

Not so much newer software as networked hardware.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/06/msg00435.html

"Ethernet is *NOT* involved …"

> * The issues you bring to the list tend to end up in a huge pile of mutual 
> misunderstandings

True. Enough said.

> * You don't like WiFi?

I did, https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/07/msg00405.html

"I'm looking for a USB modem for cell network (preferred) or a WiFi
hot spot (minimally acceptable)."

but not anymore, https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/10/msg00597.html

"I have an 8-port switch but no physical space for it.
I connect to the internet via a USB connected T-Mobile Hotspot.
WiFi is disabled as it is a possible security problem contributing
to unnecessary spectrum pollution."

> * You have more than one machine such that references to them get confusing.

Yes, in https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/msg00094.html
I perhaps gave the impression that "the first machine [Dell Latitude
E6410]" was not the machine I wanted to install to (which was "a
second machine". But now, in
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/msg00237.html
I've decided that it will be the Latitude after all.

"That will be my Dell Latitude E6410 which I use everyday. At the
moment I'm running the i386 flavor of Debian 9.13. It also has the
AMD64 flavor of Debian 10.0 . Both installed from relevant DVD1."

Oh, it's already running buster. Just 10.0 rather than 10.8.
But let's see, I don't have a network in the conventional sense,
so it's hard to upgrade like everyone else. So I'll try a fresh
install from netinst; that's NETinst. Keep up.

> Let me try and help narrow down some of the scope of what you're asking and 
> then see if we can help you on the debian-user list. Maybe you could: 
> 
> Pick one machine that you're wanting to install Debian on. [Just Debian, 
> for the moment]. 
> 
> This is a game of twenty questions
> 
> What's this machine going to be FOR?
> 
> 1. What's the end goal for that machine? What do you want to use it for? 

I'm always shooting "Towards a customizeable installer", building
a customised preseed.cfg to churn out Debian installations.

> 2. What desktop environment do you want on it? 

Too easy mate. MATE.

> 3. What other software are you likely to need? 
> [If you've some idea of this up front and it's a defined goal - we can break 
> it into steps] 

I've played with LibreOffice Calc but it takes a lot of space.
I didn't get on with its Base or Writer. Perhaps Mariadb/MySQL.
Apache. TCL at one time. Bibletime. Lots of installer stuff,
like debootstrap. Don't forget BASIC, of course. Old if possible.

I've probably forgotten some.

Oh, compilations of reading lists.

But really, just as little as possible. Minimal. Minimalist.
(Remember the data cap.)

> 4. ** Will it need to dual boot another OS eventually **

Other customised Debians, yes. (I've abandoned M$.)

> [5. Give it a friendly name we can refer back to in subsequent exchanges :-) ]

[–expletive deleted–]

> The physical machine:
> 
> 1. What model is it? Any idea how old? Laptop/desktop?
> 
> 2. Is it capable of running 64 bit software?
> 
> 3. How much memory does it have [RAM]?
> 
> 4. How much disk does it have [GB]? How many disks? 
> 
> 5. What video controller does it have [if known]
> 
> 6. What ports or connectors does the machine have externally?

My field service tech will get back on all that.

> Installation:
> 
> Internet provider
> -----------------
> 
> 1. What internet bandwidth do you have available to you to do this? [Claimed
> max speed / real speed you get]

Does anyone ever know?

> 2. That bandwidth gets to you how? Wired? Satellite? 4G connectivity? 

4G, IIRC.

> 3.Is that bandwidth shared between lots of devices - can you spare 
> bandwidth/time for installation for this new machine?

Well, I can only use one at a time really.

For the new machine? Well, I think I actually have everything except
the last point release, but it would be nice to find out how to
download it all again by using netinst. And then I can write this
bug report against https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/
because nowhere does it tell you how to set up this "ethernet"
device that isn't an Ethernet device.

> 4. Do you have an all inclusive plan for data/phone? 

Phone? What's that? PDA? Now you're talking.

> 5. Do you have a data cap?

Is the pope a catholic?

> [Or a practical limit where you can only download
> X MB of data in six hours or so so large downloads are impractical].

> Connecting to the ISP supplied device - the Alcatel?
> 
> 1. What interface is provided by the device that the ISP has given you? 

USB. It's a bit like ethernet, but not.

> 2. How do you control the ISP device to change settings / check connectivity?

An app, but I'm not sure whether it runs on a smartphone, windows, or what.

> 3. Do you have a second device which you can use to connect to the ISP's device to check

Well, there's WiFi, but I won't turn it on in the Alcatel, or
anywhere else.

> Given that we can't actually sit by your side to do this: answers to some of 
> these in order may help us figure out exactly how to go from here.

Well, I thought I might try out the method under section 4 of the
universe, that some kind fellow nearby had suggested in

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/msg00151.html

but then I got very confused. I thought the Latitude was the
machine that worked with the Alcatel, and was used to download
the netinst image. That's how I read the first two paragraphs of
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/msg00094.html

But then I looked back and found
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/02/msg00002.html
where I read that Debian 10.7 had just been installed on a
Lenovo T510 Thinkpad using debian-10.7.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso on a stick.

I wondered whether this was the machine that couldn't successfully
install 10.8 from the netinst image.

> All the very best,

Yes, me and my mate could do with a stiff drink.

Cheers,
David.

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