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Groups > linux.debian.user > #232043 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "M.R.P. zensky" <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2021-02-24 18:50 +0100 |
| Last post | 2021-02-24 19:20 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 60 — 19 participants |
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Debian install Question "M.R.P. zensky" <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> - 2021-02-24 18:50 +0100
Re: Debian install Question IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-02-24 19:00 +0100
Re: Debian install Question Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2021-02-24 21:20 +0100
Re: Debian install Question IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> - 2021-02-24 23:40 +0100
Re: Debian install Question Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-02-25 00:00 +0100
Re: Debian install Question Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-02-25 00:40 +0100
Re: Debian install Question Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-02-25 01:50 +0100
Re: Debian install Question David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-02-25 06:00 +0100
Re: Debian install Question Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-02-25 06:10 +0100
Re: Debian install Question David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-02-26 01:30 +0100
Re: Debian install Question David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-02-25 07:20 +0100
Re: Debian install Question deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-02-25 08:30 +0100
Re: Debian install Question "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-02-25 08:50 +0100
Re: Debian install Question Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-02-25 10:50 +0100
Re: Debian install Question <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-02-25 12:00 +0100
Re: Debian install Question Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-02-26 13:10 +0100
Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-02-26 14:00 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-02-26 19:50 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-02-26 21:20 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-02-26 22:10 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-02-26 22:30 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-02-27 00:00 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-02-27 09:30 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-02-28 18:10 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-02-28 20:20 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-02-28 20:30 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-02-28 21:30 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-01 10:40 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-01 14:00 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-01 15:30 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-01 20:20 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-01 14:20 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-02 21:00 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-02 22:30 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-03 00:30 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-03 04:10 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-03 16:40 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-03-04 11:20 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-04 18:50 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-04 21:50 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2021-03-05 02:00 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-04 21:50 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-05 18:00 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-05 20:40 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-06 02:50 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-06 04:30 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-04 18:50 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-03 21:10 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-03 16:30 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-03 21:20 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-03 22:50 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-04 00:20 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-03-04 04:30 +0100
Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-02-28 16:40 +0100
Re: Debian install Question Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2021-02-25 14:00 +0100
Re: Debian install Question Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2021-02-25 17:40 +0100
Re: Debian install Question Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-02-25 17:50 +0100
Re: Debian install Question Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-02-26 13:20 +0100
Re: Debian install Question Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2021-02-26 17:50 +0100
Re: Debian install Question David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2021-02-24 19:20 +0100
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| From | "M.R.P. zensky" <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-24 18:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Debian install Question |
| Message-ID | <BM6sq-GS-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
Hello I am installing Debian on a amd processor computer. I connect to the net with wifi. I have tried the net install iso and it did not work. I think I need the unoficial stable non free firmware included. I select a mirror site but Here I am confused about what iso file I want. I am also assuming that I need an image for cd-rom. Any help would be apreciated.
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| From | IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-24 19:00 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BM6C6-L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232043 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
Hello. Try to download and install "debian-10.8.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso" from here: https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/ On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 8:48 PM M.R.P. zensky <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> wrote: > Hello I am installing Debian on a amd processor computer. I connect to the > net with wifi. I have tried the net install iso and it did not work. I > think I need the unoficial stable non free firmware included. I select a > mirror site but Here I am confused about what iso file I want. I am also > assuming that I need an image for cd-rom. Any help would be apreciated. >
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| From | Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-24 21:20 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BM8Nz-2lY-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232045 |
On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 08:49:32PM +0300, IL Ka wrote: > Hello. > Try to download and install "debian-10.8.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso" > from here: > https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/ > > Please do not do that. You will find a iso here which includes most of the non-free firmware here: https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/10.8.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-dvd/ Please take the time to read AND understand the information on that site. -H -- Henning Follmann | hfollmann@itcfollmann.com
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| From | IL Ka <kazakevichilya@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-24 23:40 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BMaZ4-3zj-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232051 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
> > Please do not do that. > > > You will find a iso here which includes most of the non-free firmware here: > > https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/10.8.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-dvd/ > > Please take the time to read AND understand the information on that site. > I am sorry for giving inadequate advice. Please forgive me as I am new to Debian. My idea was to install Debian, and then install non-free firmware. This is the third question about "how to install Debian if I have nic that needs non-free firmware" I see in this list on this week. So, what is the best practice to do so? Use an unofficial installer that contains non-free firmware? If so, I believe this info is worth adding to the Debian installation guide somewhere in the wiki, so we can give a link to this wiki to newbies. It seems that a lot of people face this problem trying to install Debian on their laptops.
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-25 00:00 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BMbip-3FM-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232053 |
On Thu 25 Feb 2021 at 01:36:58 +0300, IL Ka wrote: > > > > Please do not do that. > > > > > > You will find a iso here which includes most of the non-free firmware here: > > > > https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/10.8.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-dvd/ > > > > Please take the time to read AND understand the information on that site. > > > > I am sorry for giving inadequate advice. Please forgive me as I am new to > Debian. > My idea was to install Debian, and then install non-free firmware. That was what I thought your intention was and I do not think it is such bad idea, unless the user knows that she does not want Gnome. > This is the third question about "how to install Debian if I have nic that > needs non-free firmware" I see in this list on this week. > > So, what is the best practice to do so? Use an unofficial installer that > contains non-free firmware? If the widest installation framework is required, that is probably best. > If so, I believe this info is worth adding to the Debian installation guide > somewhere in the wiki, so we can give a link to this wiki to newbies. > It seems that a lot of people face this problem trying to install Debian on > their laptops. I've not looked at the wiki. -- Brian.
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| From | Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-25 00:40 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BMbV7-47R-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232053 |
IL Ka wrote: > > I am sorry for giving inadequate advice. Please forgive me as I am new to > Debian. > My idea was to install Debian, and then install non-free firmware. > > This is the third question about "how to install Debian if I have nic that > needs non-free firmware" I see in this list on this week. > > So, what is the best practice to do so? Use an unofficial installer that > contains non-free firmware? > If so, I believe this info is worth adding to the Debian installation guide > somewhere in the wiki, so we can give a link to this wiki to newbies. > It seems that a lot of people face this problem trying to install Debian on > their laptops. Yes. It's in the wiki, but it isn't at the front. Most people with laptops are going to need it, or a similar workaround. Here's some recent discussion: https://lwn.net/Articles/843172/ -dsr-
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| From | Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-25 01:50 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BMd0R-4IR-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232055 |
On 25-02-2021 09:32, Dan Ritter wrote: > IL Ka wrote: >> >> I am sorry for giving inadequate advice. Please forgive me as I am new to >> Debian. >> My idea was to install Debian, and then install non-free firmware. This is quite possible. >> This is the third question about "how to install Debian if I have nic that >> needs non-free firmware" I see in this list on this week. >> >> So, what is the best practice to do so? Use an unofficial installer that >> contains non-free firmware? That's actually not required. For a little while now, I've had a 2016 Acer TravelMate. This requires three different blobs of non-free software to operate efficiently. As long as you opt for the nonfree and contrib lines to be included in your sources.list file during installation, they're there when the install process is over. As soon as the netinst disc is spat out and reboot happens, there appears to be a period when I can install aptitude, mc, menu, and a couple of other niceties. I then call up aptitude interface and go through the kernel nonfree sector for the blobs I require, clearly delineated during the install process. Intel's iwlwifi being one of the packages required for this machine. >> If so, I believe this info is worth adding to the Debian installation guide >> somewhere in the wiki, so we can give a link to this wiki to newbies. Definitely! >> It seems that a lot of people face this problem trying to install Debian on >> their laptops. It's how I learnt to deal with it, two or three installs later. Cheers! Harry. -- `The World is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look on without doing anything'. -- Albert Einstein
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-25 06:00 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BMgUO-72q-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232056 |
On Wed 24 Feb 2021 at 16:44:18 (-0800), Weaver wrote: > On 25-02-2021 09:32, Dan Ritter wrote: > > IL Ka wrote: > >> > >> I am sorry for giving inadequate advice. Please forgive me as I am new to > >> Debian. > >> My idea was to install Debian, and then install non-free firmware. > > This is quite possible. > > >> This is the third question about "how to install Debian if I have nic that > >> needs non-free firmware" I see in this list on this week. > >> > >> So, what is the best practice to do so? Use an unofficial installer that > >> contains non-free firmware? > > That's actually not required. > For a little while now, I've had a 2016 Acer TravelMate. > This requires three different blobs of non-free software to operate > efficiently. > As long as you opt for the nonfree and contrib lines to be included in > your sources.list file during installation, they're there when the > install process is over. > As soon as the netinst disc is spat out and reboot happens, there > appears to be a period when I can install aptitude, mc, menu, and a > couple of other niceties. > I then call up aptitude interface and go through the kernel nonfree > sector for the blobs I require, clearly delineated during the install > process. > Intel's iwlwifi being one of the packages required for this machine. How do you get the wifi to connect, in order to fetch the firmware, without the firmware that the wifi needs to connect? > >> If so, I believe this info is worth adding to the Debian installation guide > >> somewhere in the wiki, so we can give a link to this wiki to newbies. > > Definitely! > > >> It seems that a lot of people face this problem trying to install Debian on > >> their laptops. > > It's how I learnt to deal with it, two or three installs later. Cheers, David.
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| From | Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-25 06:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BMh4u-7lD-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232062 |
On 25-02-2021 14:53, David Wright wrote: > On Wed 24 Feb 2021 at 16:44:18 (-0800), Weaver wrote: >> On 25-02-2021 09:32, Dan Ritter wrote: >> > IL Ka wrote: >> >> >> >> I am sorry for giving inadequate advice. Please forgive me as I am new to >> >> Debian. >> >> My idea was to install Debian, and then install non-free firmware. >> >> This is quite possible. >> >> >> This is the third question about "how to install Debian if I have nic that >> >> needs non-free firmware" I see in this list on this week. >> >> >> >> So, what is the best practice to do so? Use an unofficial installer that >> >> contains non-free firmware? >> >> That's actually not required. >> For a little while now, I've had a 2016 Acer TravelMate. >> This requires three different blobs of non-free software to operate >> efficiently. >> As long as you opt for the nonfree and contrib lines to be included in >> your sources.list file during installation, they're there when the >> install process is over. >> As soon as the netinst disc is spat out and reboot happens, there >> appears to be a period when I can install aptitude, mc, menu, and a >> couple of other niceties. >> I then call up aptitude interface and go through the kernel nonfree >> sector for the blobs I require, clearly delineated during the install >> process. >> Intel's iwlwifi being one of the packages required for this machine. > > How do you get the wifi to connect, in order to fetch the firmware, > without the firmware that the wifi needs to connect? The netinst connection seems to remain `live' for a short period of time before you are isolated. I would have thought the reboot would have cut me off, but that's not the case. Perhaps it's a feature the developers don't know about, but it has worked for me on at least three occasions, now. >> >> If so, I believe this info is worth adding to the Debian installation guide >> >> somewhere in the wiki, so we can give a link to this wiki to newbies. >> >> Definitely! >> >> >> It seems that a lot of people face this problem trying to install Debian on >> >> their laptops. >> >> It's how I learnt to deal with it, two or three installs later. > > Cheers, > David. -- `The World is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look on without doing anything'. -- Albert Einstein
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-26 01:30 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BMzb3-1qn-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232063 |
On Wed 24 Feb 2021 at 21:05:00 (-0800), Weaver wrote: > On 25-02-2021 14:53, David Wright wrote: > > On Wed 24 Feb 2021 at 16:44:18 (-0800), Weaver wrote: > >> On 25-02-2021 09:32, Dan Ritter wrote: > >> > IL Ka wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I am sorry for giving inadequate advice. Please forgive me as I am new to > >> >> Debian. > >> >> My idea was to install Debian, and then install non-free firmware. > >> > >> This is quite possible. > >> > >> >> This is the third question about "how to install Debian if I have nic that > >> >> needs non-free firmware" I see in this list on this week. > >> >> > >> >> So, what is the best practice to do so? Use an unofficial installer that > >> >> contains non-free firmware? > >> > >> That's actually not required. > >> For a little while now, I've had a 2016 Acer TravelMate. > >> This requires three different blobs of non-free software to operate > >> efficiently. > >> As long as you opt for the nonfree and contrib lines to be included in > >> your sources.list file during installation, they're there when the > >> install process is over. > >> As soon as the netinst disc is spat out and reboot happens, there > >> appears to be a period when I can install aptitude, mc, menu, and a > >> couple of other niceties. > >> I then call up aptitude interface and go through the kernel nonfree > >> sector for the blobs I require, clearly delineated during the install > >> process. > >> Intel's iwlwifi being one of the packages required for this machine. > > > > How do you get the wifi to connect, in order to fetch the firmware, > > without the firmware that the wifi needs to connect? > > The netinst connection seems to remain `live' for a short period of time > before you are isolated. > I would have thought the reboot would have cut me off, but that's not > the case. > Perhaps it's a feature the developers don't know about, but it has > worked for me on at least three occasions, now. You'd have to elaborate: I don't know what you mean by the "netinst connection" (which is what we need the firmware for) or which reboot (one boots the machine before starting the debian-installer, and reboots it after all the software and firmware has been installed). Cheers, David.
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| From | David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-25 07:20 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BMiad-7YD-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232053 |
On 2021-02-24 14:36, IL Ka wrote: > I am sorry for giving inadequate advice. Please forgive me as I am new to > Debian. > My idea was to install Debian, and then install non-free firmware. > > This is the third question about "how to install Debian if I have nic that > needs non-free firmware" I see in this list on this week. > > So, what is the best practice to do so? Use an unofficial installer that > contains non-free firmware? > If so, I believe this info is worth adding to the Debian installation guide > somewhere in the wiki, so we can give a link to this wiki to newbies. > It seems that a lot of people face this problem trying to install Debian on > their laptops. https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/out+of+the+mouths+of+babes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_in_the_room I agree that the "Download" button on the Debian home page links to an ISO image that is inadequate for installing Debian onto computers without an Ethernet interface (e.g. many laptop/ notebook/ netbook computers). A deeper "gotcha" is that building a multi-boot computer with Windows, Chrome, Linux, BSD, etc., is a non-trivial feat, especially when it involves UEFI, Secure Boot, GPT, and proprietary firmware/ drivers. I avoid these complexities by installing each OS instance onto a dedicated storage device (I prefer 2.5" SATA SSD's). AIUI the Debian project has prioritized "freedom" over everything else. But, by not providing sufficient information for users to make an informed choice, they are damaging "freedom of choice", frustrating new users, and wasting resources on conversations like this (over and over and over...). David
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| From | deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-25 08:30 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BMjfX-8r-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232053 |
IL Ka wrote: > If so, I believe this info is worth adding to the Debian installation > guide somewhere in the wiki, so we can give a link to this wiki to > newbies. newbies use ubuntu :)
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| From | "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-25 08:50 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BMjzj-eN-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232065 |
Hi, David Wright wrote: > > Take care: this stick will have very strange partitioning. I am preaching against this partition table layout since years. deloptes wrote: > newbies use ubuntu :) ... which eventually switched to a neater layout in the 20.10 ISOs with only one partition table hack left (to please old HP laptops without alienating new Lenovos). Have a nice day :) Thomas
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| From | Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-25 10:50 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BMlrr-1ky-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232065 |
On Thursday 25 February 2021 02:23:22 deloptes wrote: > IL Ka wrote: > > If so, I believe this info is worth adding to the Debian > > installation guide somewhere in the wiki, so we can give a link to > > this wiki to newbies. > > newbies use ubuntu :) Yeah, but it doesn't take long to get over that. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-25 12:00 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BMmxc-1VV-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232053 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 01:36:58AM +0300, IL Ka wrote: > > > > Please do not do that. > > > > > > You will find a iso here which includes most of the non-free firmware here: > > > > https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/10.8.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-dvd/ > > > > Please take the time to read AND understand the information on that site. > > > > I am sorry for giving inadequate advice. Please forgive me as I am new to > Debian. No worries. Things happen -- and in this case you happened to step onto a sticky issue which has no "nice" solution. The two extremes (a) Debian should be a free distribution. If you're holding a Debian "CD" [1] on your hands, you should be safe trusting that all the stuff in there is free to use, study, modify and give to others (b) Debian should be welcoming to newbies, it should be easy to install This is a point of conflict, and won't be solved as long as there are hardware companies out there saying "my firmware is MINE and you are not allowed to redistribute it" while at the same time spreading this oh-too-valuable-stuff all over the Internets. Back to Debian. The solution is to create some "enhanced" distributions to cater for (b), but they cannot be Debian because of (a) and are clearly marked as such. Rightly so. Of course there are very opinionated people who say "scratch (a). Who cares about freedom? It's all about convenience/market share/whatever". Likewise you'll find opinionated people at the other end of the spectrum. Back to you. You offered your help. Thanks for that. That's what this list thrives on. Again: *thank you*. And yes: I found Henning's dry "Please do not do that" quite a bit too harsh. Let's blame it on mail as a limited communication medium. Don't let that discourage you. Cheers [1] Remember those times with CDs and things? - t
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| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-26 13:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BMK6u-88s-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232072 |
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On Jo, 25 feb 21, 11:53:18, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > > No worries. Things happen -- and in this case you happened to step > onto a sticky issue which has no "nice" solution. The two extremes > > (a) Debian should be a free distribution. If you're holding a > Debian "CD" [1] on your hands, you should be safe trusting > that all the stuff in there is free to use, study, modify > and give to others > > (b) Debian should be welcoming to newbies, it should be easy > to install > > This is a point of conflict, and won't be solved as long as there > are hardware companies out there saying "my firmware is MINE and > you are not allowed to redistribute it" while at the same time > spreading this oh-too-valuable-stuff all over the Internets. It's more complicated than this. Debian is allowed distribute the firmware (otherwise it wouldn't be included in non-free or in the image), but the firmware doesn't satisfy one or more of the requirements in the Debian Free Software Guidelines (DFSG)[1]. Apparently some firmwares even would satisfy the DFSG (in theory), but the hardware accepts only firmware signed by the manufacturer, so Debian can't rebuild it from source. I'd say this is still progress (compared to not having the source at all). [1] https://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-26 14:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] |
| Message-ID | <BMKSR-8pk-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232148 |
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On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 02:08:26PM +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Jo, 25 feb 21, 11:53:18, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >
> > No worries. Things happen -- and in this case you happened to step
> > onto a sticky issue which has no "nice" solution. The two extremes
> >
> > (a) Debian should be a free distribution. If you're holding a
> > Debian "CD" [1] on your hands, you should be safe trusting
> > that all the stuff in there is free to use, study, modify
> > and give to others
> >
> > (b) Debian should be welcoming to newbies, it should be easy
> > to install
> >
> > This is a point of conflict, and won't be solved as long as there
> > are hardware companies out there saying "my firmware is MINE and
> > you are not allowed to redistribute it" while at the same time
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > spreading this oh-too-valuable-stuff all over the Internets.
>
> It's more complicated than this. Debian is allowed distribute the
> firmware (otherwise it wouldn't be included in non-free or in the
> image), but the firmware doesn't satisfy one or more of the requirements
> in the Debian Free Software Guidelines (DFSG)[1].
You're right. This was a too-abbreviated version. So much as
to be wrong.
There are those cases -- where the end user is supposed to
download the stuff directly; there, the Debian package is
just a wrapper which does the download and marks the package
as installed. But this isn't typical for firmware, it happens
rather with video drivers et al.
For firmware, you might encounter other nasties, like (as
you stated) no source, perhaps some form of prohibition
of reverse engineering (legally void in many jurisdictions
anyway)... lots of stuff contradicting DFSG.
Whether that's progress or not depends on your goals, of course.
That's why Debian tries hard to keep things separate.
Cheers
- t
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-26 19:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] |
| Message-ID | <BMQlz-3l4-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232152 |
On Fri 26 Feb 2021 at 13:59:38 +0100, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 02:08:26PM +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > On Jo, 25 feb 21, 11:53:18, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > > > > No worries. Things happen -- and in this case you happened to step > > > onto a sticky issue which has no "nice" solution. The two extremes > > > > > > (a) Debian should be a free distribution. If you're holding a > > > Debian "CD" [1] on your hands, you should be safe trusting > > > that all the stuff in there is free to use, study, modify > > > and give to others > > > > > > (b) Debian should be welcoming to newbies, it should be easy > > > to install > > > > > > This is a point of conflict, and won't be solved as long as there > > > are hardware companies out there saying "my firmware is MINE and > > > you are not allowed to redistribute it" while at the same time > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > spreading this oh-too-valuable-stuff all over the Internets. > > > > It's more complicated than this. Debian is allowed distribute the > > firmware (otherwise it wouldn't be included in non-free or in the > > image), but the firmware doesn't satisfy one or more of the requirements > > in the Debian Free Software Guidelines (DFSG)[1]. > > You're right. This was a too-abbreviated version. So much as > to be wrong. AFAIAC, it was in the right ballpark. For various reasons, many firmware blobs are seen by Debian as non-free. Debian, and Debian users, have to live with this. Hardware vendors suddenly seeing the light is unlikely, as is some skilled user devising a tool chain to produce free versions. > There are those cases -- where the end user is supposed to > download the stuff directly; there, the Debian package is > just a wrapper which does the download and marks the package > as installed. But this isn't typical for firmware, it happens > rather with video drivers et al. > > For firmware, you might encounter other nasties, like (as > you stated) no source, perhaps some form of prohibition > of reverse engineering (legally void in many jurisdictions > anyway)... lots of stuff contradicting DFSG. > > Whether that's progress or not depends on your goals, of course. > That's why Debian tries hard to keep things separate. A 64-bit netinstall is prominent on the Debian main page. The problem with that image is that it is unlikely to suit many users with wireless-only connectivity. No obvious escape route is advertised. Yes, I know - if a site search is conducted, a better (non-free) image will be located. Jumping through hoops comes to mind! -- Brian.
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-26 21:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] |
| Message-ID | <BMRKF-4iz-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232161 |
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On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 06:41:40PM +0000, Brian wrote: [...] > A 64-bit netinstall is prominent on the Debian main page. The > problem with that image is that it is unlikely to suit many users > with wireless-only connectivity. No obvious escape route is > advertised. Yes, I know - if a site search is conducted, a better > (non-free) image will be located. Jumping through hoops comes to > mind! No easy solution to that, sigh. Cheers - t
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-26 22:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Non-free firmware [was: Debian install Question] |
| Message-ID | <BMSx3-4O7-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232166 |
On Fri 26 Feb 2021 at 21:15:31 +0100, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 06:41:40PM +0000, Brian wrote: > > [...] > > > A 64-bit netinstall is prominent on the Debian main page. The > > problem with that image is that it is unlikely to suit many users > > with wireless-only connectivity. No obvious escape route is > > advertised. Yes, I know - if a site search is conducted, a better > > (non-free) image will be located. Jumping through hoops comes to > > mind! > > No easy solution to that, sigh. Indeed. But now we impel users to start using the non-free archive or a so-called unofficial ISO to get their hardware working. non-free in sources.list becomes obligatory. It is difficult to see how this helps Debian's focus on creating a free software ecosystem. -- Brian.
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