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BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ...

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  BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... Albretch Mueller <lbrtchx@gmail.com> - 2020-07-30 13:20 +0200
    Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... Andrew Cater <amacater@gmail.com> - 2020-07-30 14:00 +0200
    Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-07-30 14:10 +0200
      Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2020-07-30 16:10 +0200
        Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-07-30 16:20 +0200
        Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-07-30 17:00 +0200
          Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-07-30 18:00 +0200
            Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-07-30 18:20 +0200
              Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-07-31 08:00 +0200
                Signature [was: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-07-31 11:30 +0200
                  Re: Signature [was: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ...] Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-07-31 12:00 +0200
                    Re: Signature [was: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ...] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-07-31 13:50 +0200
                      Re: Signature [was: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ...] Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-07-31 14:40 +0200
                        Re: Signature [was: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ...] The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-07-31 14:50 +0200
                          Re: Signature [was: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ...] Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-07-31 17:00 +0200
                            Re: Signature [was: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ...] The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-07-31 18:10 +0200
                  Re: Signature [was: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ...] The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-07-31 13:20 +0200
                  Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-07-31 17:50 +0200
                    Re: [OT] Lisp is back (was: Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig) Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-07-31 18:00 +0200
                      Re: [OT] Lisp is back Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2020-07-31 18:30 +0200
                    Re: Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig tomas@tuxteam.de - 2020-07-31 21:10 +0200
                      Re: Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-07-31 21:30 +0200
                        Re: Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-07-31 21:40 +0200
                      Re: Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-07-31 21:30 +0200
                        Re: Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-07-31 21:50 +0200
                        Re: Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-07-31 22:00 +0200
                Signature [was: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-07-31 12:00 +0200
                Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-07-31 12:00 +0200
                  Signature not working rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-07-31 13:20 +0200
                    Re: Signature not working rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-07-31 13:30 +0200
                    Re: Signature not working The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-07-31 13:30 +0200
                    Re: Signature not working Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-07-31 13:40 +0200
                      Re: Signature not working Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-07-31 15:00 +0200
                        Re: Signature not working Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-07-31 16:00 +0200
                          Re: Signature not working Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-07-31 17:10 +0200
                            Re: Signature not working Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-07-31 17:40 +0200
                              Re: Signature not working The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-07-31 18:10 +0200
                                Re: Signature not working Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-07-31 19:00 +0200
                            Re: Signature not working David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-07-31 17:40 +0200
                              Re: Signature not working Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2020-07-31 18:00 +0200
                              Re: Signature not working The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-07-31 18:10 +0200
                                Re: Signature not working David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-08-01 05:50 +0200
                                  Re: Signature not working Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-03 06:10 +0200
                          Re: Signature not working Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-07-31 17:10 +0200
                          Re: Signature not working Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-07-31 17:30 +0200
    Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... Cindy Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2020-07-30 14:10 +0200
    Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-07-30 16:10 +0200
    Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... Albretch Mueller <lbrtchx@gmail.com> - 2020-07-31 14:00 +0200
      Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-07-31 15:20 +0200
        Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... Albretch Mueller <lbrtchx@gmail.com> - 2020-08-08 16:20 +0200
          Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... Andrew Cater <amacater@gmail.com> - 2020-08-08 16:40 +0200
            Re: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ... Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-08-11 13:10 +0200

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#225656 — Re: Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig

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On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:47:22AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: 

[...]

> Would you please consider changing your customary signoff to include an
> extra space or other character in the first two columns?

Thanks for the list. I didn't expect that this humble thing would
set off such a monster thread :-)

>  -- t       # Looks nice, almost the same

Good idea.

> - - t       # A little weird, but very distinctive

Also a good one.

> ++t         # That looks like it could be a classic

Hm. I happen to like C (weird, I know), but not in this spot.

> ==t         # Implies that you are your message

Needs shift on my keyboard (yes, I do it manually!).

> +=t         # The joke gets weirder

See ==t

> ..t         # Maybe three would be better?

Nice, actually. Might trigger a WordStar dot command. There seem
to be weird MUAs out there. Better not tempt destiny.

> ...t        # Too much trouble

Even more WordStar danger.

> t           # Authoritative, but not self-important

Visually not very distinctive. Brad may have missed this
one.

> [t]         # A stamp of approval, like a chop

AltGr key. Even worse than ==t

> 't          # LISP is back

Shift key. See ==t. Although I'd *love* this one.

> It is apparently driving some people crazy because their MUAs
> are slightly broken.

See [1].

> If not, well, I certainly understand.

I'll try for a while No. 2. Can't vouch for my muscle memory, though.

Cheers
- -t

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#225658 — Re: Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig

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On 2020-07-31 at 15:04, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:47:22AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
>
>> tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: 
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Would you please consider changing your customary signoff to include an
>> extra space or other character in the first two columns?
> 
> Thanks for the list. I didn't expect that this humble thing would
> set off such a monster thread :-)

To be honest, after your last sign-off reply, I wasn't sure you were
even reading the remainder of the thread.

>>  -- t       # Looks nice, almost the same
> 
> Good idea.
> 
>> - - t       # A little weird, but very distinctive
> 
> Also a good one.

> I'll try for a while No. 2. Can't vouch for my muscle memory, though.
> 
> Cheers
> - -t

That could be an improvement, yes.

If I might suggest another possibility? To whatever hard-to-pin-down
part of me finds any of this objectionable, I think something like

 --t

would be even less of a problem than any of the above, while still being
just as easy to type. Removing the separation between the dashes and the
initial, as well as placing extra indentation before the dashes, helps
make clear to my subconscious that the dashes are a lead-in to the
initial, rather than being a form of the standard-specified delimiter.

(I've used something similar to that form, with my own three initials
rather than just one, in various spots in my workplace in the past.)

Whether that would hold for anyone else, including Brad, I of course
can't say.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#225661 — Re: Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig

On Fri 31 Jul 2020 at 15:28:41 -0400, The Wanderer wrote:

> On 2020-07-31 at 15:04, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:47:22AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> >
> >> tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: 
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> >> Would you please consider changing your customary signoff to include an
> >> extra space or other character in the first two columns?
> > 
> > Thanks for the list. I didn't expect that this humble thing would
> > set off such a monster thread :-)
> 
> To be honest, after your last sign-off reply, I wasn't sure you were
> even reading the remainder of the thread.

I'd fallen asleep, in spite of reading every post.

-- 
Brian.

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#225659 — Re: Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig

On Fri 31 Jul 2020 at 21:04:32 +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:47:22AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: 
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Would you please consider changing your customary signoff to include an
> > extra space or other character in the first two columns?
> 
> Thanks for the list. I didn't expect that this humble thing would
> set off such a monster thread :-)

You've not been in these parts for very long, have you? -user has a
habit of generating discussion on trivilities like these. :)

-- 
Brian.

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#225662 — Re: Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig

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On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 08:27:30PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Fri 31 Jul 2020 at 21:04:32 +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:47:22AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: 
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > Would you please consider changing your customary signoff to include an
> > > extra space or other character in the first two columns?
> > 
> > Thanks for the list. I didn't expect that this humble thing would
> > set off such a monster thread :-)
> 
> You've not been in these parts for very long, have you? -user has a
> habit of generating discussion on trivilities like these. :)

To be honest, I do know the bikeshed pattern -- but it still surprises
me sometimes.

Cheers (trying now The Wanderer's suggestion. Feels awkward, I can't spot
yet why)

 --t

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#225664 — Re: Tomas has a signature which isn't a .sig

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 20:27:30 +0100
Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:

> > Thanks for the list. I didn't expect that this humble thing would
> > set off such a monster thread :-)  
> 
> You've not been in these parts for very long, have you? -user has a
> habit of generating discussion on trivilities like these. :)

Yes, it does. Which tends to drive off people who don't like watching
the discussion wander off into the weeds. Or the bike shed.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#225595 — Signature [was: BIOS time fine, Linux/Debian's isn't! ...]

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On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 10:49:14AM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:55:22 +0300
> Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Andrei,
> 
> >What difference does it make for a signature like his ("-- t")?
> 
> It doesn't work.

I won't discuss that further.

Cheers
-- t

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#225597

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On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:55:22 +0300
Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Andrei,

>What difference does it make for a signature like his ("-- t")?

It doesn't work.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Give me a reason for living
Call Me Up - Gang of Four

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#225601 — Signature not working

On Friday, July 31, 2020 05:49:14 AM Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:55:22 +0300
> Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Andrei,
> 
> >What difference does it make for a signature like his ("-- t")?
> 
> It doesn't work.

From left field (I learned that I probably shouldn't say "from the peanut 
gallery" as its origins may be racist): What doesn't work?

Do you mean that his -- t (or your:

         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Give me a reason for living
Call Me Up - Gang of Four

... is not visible?

Or the PGP signatures don't work?

Of maybe some people have email clients that hide the signature (like -- t) so 
it doesn't catch my eye and I read (or start to read) it each time I read an 
email (boy would I love that -- maybe I write a filter in kmail to strip or 
hide those -- for me, that is a worthy goal).

Ah, or maybe I see now -- when I reply to you, your signature (as above) is 
not copied into my reply, when I reply to t, his -- t does show up in the 
reply?

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#225602 — Re: Signature not working

On Friday, July 31, 2020 07:15:40 AM rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, July 31, 2020 05:49:14 AM Brad Rogers wrote: <elided>

On Friday, July 31, 2020 07:15:40 AM rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> Or the PGP signatures don't work?

I meant to say that both his messages and your messages show up with the "End 
of signed message." line in kmail.

They both also start with the "Not enough information to check signature 
validity." line, but that is because I don't have (either of) your public 
keys.

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#225603 — Re: Signature not working

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On 2020-07-31 at 07:15, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:

> On Friday, July 31, 2020 05:49:14 AM Brad Rogers wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:55:22 +0300 Andrei POPESCU
>> <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Andrei,
>> 
>>> What difference does it make for a signature like his ("-- t")?
>> 
>> It doesn't work.
> 
> From left field (I learned that I probably shouldn't say "from the
> peanut gallery" as its origins may be racist): What doesn't work?

<snip>

> Ah, or maybe I see now -- when I reply to you, your signature (as
> above) is not copied into my reply, when I reply to t, his -- t does
> show up in the reply?

In properly-compliant mail (etc.) software, when replying to a message
which contains the '-- [newline]' signature delimiter, that delimiter
and everything that appears after it will be automatically omitted from
the quoted text.

Among possibly other things, this makes the process of properly quoting
when replying both simpler and easier to work with, except for the rare
case where you actually want to reply to something that's contained in
the signature.

There may or may not also be clients which (can be configured to) hide
the signature when displaying a message for reading. I've never noticed
one, but there might be people who would want that.

A nonstandard signature delimiter is not detected by such software, and
so this behavior does not happen. The signature lines have to be deleted
by hand on replies.

In this case, there's pre-signature-delimiter boilerplate which is being
used anyway, and so would have to be deleted by hand regardless, so the
effect is minimal. It's still a bit of a pain, and the principle
(whatever it may be if spelled out in words) is still no less important.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#225607 — Re: Signature not working

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On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 07:15:40 -0400
rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:

Hello rhkramer@gmail.com,

>Do you mean that his -- t

Of course I do.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Drums quite good, bass is too loud, and I can't hear the words
Sound Of The Suburbs - Members

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#225614 — Re: Signature not working

>>Do you mean that his -- t
>
> Of course I do.

Then you're confused: his `-- t` is perfectly normal and valid (just as
much as my `\tStefan` below which I occasionally change to `-- Stefan`
depending on the indentation of the previous text).

The signature problem you're apparently seeing in your MUA is linked to
the PGP authentication of messages and is unrelated to the `-- \n`
convention used to separate the message's main content from some extra
text traditionally taken from `~/.signature`.


        Stefan

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#225620 — Re: Signature not working

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On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:59:35 -0400
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:

Hello Stefan,

>Then you're confused: his `-- t` is perfectly normal and valid (just as

No, I'm not confused.  '-- t' is NOT a valid sig separator.

Unfortunately, I forgot to change the Subject header, and when somebody
else did, they used a misleading term.

>the PGP authentication of messages and is unrelated to the `-- \n`

PGP/GPG is irrelevant for this.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Just coz they do it in the movies, doesn't mean to say that it's cool
Keep It Clean - The Vibrators

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#225624 — Re: Signature not working

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On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 18:00:03 +0300
Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote:

Hello Reco,

>I agree. But it's a valid part of a e-mail body, and any MUA that
>mishandles that is broken in this regard.

I can read everything fine.  Nothing gets trashed, but things that one
expects to happen (non quoting of text after a valid sig separator)
because Tomas has DELIBERATELY, broken his, don't occur.  When asked to
correct the problem, Tomas' answer boiled down to "No".

The Wanderer couched his response to that far more politely than I would
have done.

Since Tomas refuses to play nice, I've dealt with the issue in my own
way.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Watching the people get lairy
I Predict A Riot - Kaiser Chiefs

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#225628 — Re: Signature not working

> I can read everything fine.  Nothing gets trashed, but things that one
> expects to happen (non quoting of text after a valid sig separator)
> because Tomas has DELIBERATELY, broken his, don't occur.

I don't see any text following his `-- t`.
What text do you see after `-- t` that you think should be hidden?


        Stefan

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#225635 — Re: Signature not working

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On 2020-07-31 at 11:30, Stefan Monnier wrote:

>> I can read everything fine.  Nothing gets trashed, but things that
>> one expects to happen (non quoting of text after a valid sig
>> separator) because Tomas has DELIBERATELY, broken his, don't
>> occur.
> 
> I don't see any text following his `-- t`. What text do you see after
> `-- t` that you think should be hidden?

In a properly compliant situation, the '-- t' itself would be omitted
when replying to the message, because it is (part or all of) the
signature block and not actually anything that will need to be
responded to.

To be honest, I rather suspect you already understood that.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#225646 — Re: Signature not working

> In a properly compliant situation, the '-- t' itself would be omitted
> when replying to the message, because it is (part or all of) the
> signature block and not actually anything that will need to be
> responded to.

Just like the `\tStefan` at the end of this email, the `-- t` is *not*
meant to be part of the signature block.  It'd need a `-- \n` before
that to be discounted as such.

So, if my `\tStefan` is not a problem, then his `-- t` shouldn't be
a problem either.  So, is my `\tStefan` a problem as well for you?


        Stefan

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#225630 — Re: Signature not working

On Fri 31 Jul 2020 at 16:07:29 (+0100), Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 18:00:03 +0300 Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote:
> 
> >I agree. But it's a valid part of a e-mail body, and any MUA that
> >mishandles that is broken in this regard.
> 
> I can read everything fine.  Nothing gets trashed, but things that one
> expects to happen (non quoting of text after a valid sig separator)
> because Tomas has DELIBERATELY, broken his, don't occur.  When asked to
> correct the problem, Tomas' answer boiled down to "No".

I'm not really sure what the implications are of Reco's post about
kmail's alleged bug. But surely, if kmail has a bug, then isn't the
correct path to report it?

> The Wanderer couched his response to that far more politely than I would
> have done.

That might be because The Wanderer was responding to some information
in Reco's post. It was much more informative than "It doesn't work."

> Since Tomas refuses to play nice, I've dealt with the issue in my own
> way.

I like to clean out all the salutations and valedictions from material
I quote, so a one-line signature like -- t's is more helpful to me than
long rambling signatures. (It sometimes transpires that people don't
even stand by the quotations their own signatures contain.)

Cheers,
David.

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#225632 — Re: Signature not working

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On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 10:29:56 -0500
David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:

Hello David,

>kmail's alleged bug. But surely, if kmail has a bug, then isn't the
>correct path to report it?

Indeed.

 BUT:

I don't use kmail. 

Finally (IOW, last I'm going to say on the subject);  I've dealt with
the problem.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Success defined by acquisition stinks
Money is Not Our God -  Killing Joke

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