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How long will this take?

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  How long will this take? Matthew Campbell <trenix25@pm.me> - 2020-06-08 22:30 +0200
    Re: How long will this take? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-08 22:40 +0200
      Re: How long will this take? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-06-08 23:00 +0200
        Re: How long will this take? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-09 00:10 +0200
          Re: How long will this take? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-06-10 16:10 +0200
            Re: How long will this take? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-06-10 17:00 +0200
            Re: How long will this take? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-10 17:00 +0200
            Re: How long will this take? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-06-11 02:40 +0200
      Re: How long will this take? Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2020-06-09 02:20 +0200
        Re: How long will this take? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-09 09:40 +0200
    Re: How long will this take? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2020-06-08 22:40 +0200
      Re: How long will this take? Matthew Campbell <trenix25@pm.me> - 2020-06-08 23:10 +0200
        Re: How long will this take? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2020-06-08 23:20 +0200
    Re: How long will this take? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-09 05:10 +0200
      Re: How long will this take? Christopher David Howie <me@chrishowie.com> - 2020-06-09 06:00 +0200
        Re: How long will this take? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2020-06-09 11:50 +0200
          Fw: How long will this take? Matthew Campbell <trenix25@pm.me> - 2020-06-09 17:40 +0200
          Re: How long will this take? Christopher David Howie <me@chrishowie.com> - 2020-06-10 02:50 +0200
      Re: How long will this take? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-06-10 16:20 +0200
        Re: How long will this take? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-10 19:10 +0200
          Fw: How long will this take? Matthew Campbell <trenix25@pm.me> - 2020-06-10 19:20 +0200
            Re: Fw: How long will this take? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-06-11 03:10 +0200
              Fw: Fw: How long will this take? Matthew Campbell <trenix25@pm.me> - 2020-06-11 20:00 +0200
                Re: Fw: Fw: How long will this take? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-11 20:10 +0200
                  Re: Fw: Fw: How long will this take? Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2020-06-11 22:20 +0200
                  Re: Fw: Fw: How long will this take? "Rick Thomas" <rick.thomas@pobox.com> - 2020-06-13 11:20 +0200
          Re: How long will this take? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-06-10 21:00 +0200
            [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) l0f4r0@tuta.io - 2020-06-10 21:30 +0200
              Re: [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2020-06-10 21:30 +0200
                Re: [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2020-06-10 22:00 +0200
                  Re: [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-06-10 22:00 +0200
                    Re: [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2020-06-10 22:30 +0200
                    Re: [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-06-11 07:30 +0200
                      Re: [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-06-11 07:50 +0200
                        Re: [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-06-11 11:00 +0200
                          Re: [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-06-11 11:40 +0200
                          Re: [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-06-11 14:00 +0200
                            Re: [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2020-06-11 14:10 +0200
                Re: [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-06-10 22:00 +0200
              Re: [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-06-10 21:50 +0200
                Re: [OT] How to help the OP? (was: How long will this take?) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-12 04:00 +0200
            Re: How long will this take? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-12 04:00 +0200
              Re: How long will this take? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-06-12 14:00 +0200
                Re: How long will this take? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-19 04:20 +0200
                  Re: How long will this take? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-06-20 00:00 +0200
                    Re: How long will this take? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-26 15:10 +0200
                      Re: How long will this take? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-06-27 00:10 +0200
                        Re: How long will this take? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-27 03:30 +0200
                          Re: How long will this take? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-06-27 05:00 +0200
                            Re: How long will this take? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-07-02 03:10 +0200
    Re: How long will this take? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-06-09 09:10 +0200
    Re: How long will this take? l0f4r0@tuta.io - 2020-06-09 20:10 +0200
      Re: How long will this take? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2020-06-09 20:30 +0200
        Re: How long will this take? Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2020-06-09 21:50 +0200
          Re: How long will this take? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2020-06-09 21:50 +0200
        Re: How long will this take? Anders Andersson <pipatron@gmail.com> - 2020-06-10 12:50 +0200
          Re: How long will this take? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2020-06-10 13:20 +0200
            Re: How long will this take? Anders Andersson <pipatron@gmail.com> - 2020-06-10 15:30 +0200
              Re: How long will this take? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2020-06-10 15:40 +0200
                Re: How long will this take? Anders Andersson <pipatron@gmail.com> - 2020-06-10 16:00 +0200
                  Re: How long will this take? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2020-06-10 16:10 +0200
                    Re: How long will this take? Anders Andersson <pipatron@gmail.com> - 2020-06-10 22:10 +0200
                  Fw: How long will this take? Matthew Campbell <trenix25@pm.me> - 2020-06-10 19:00 +0200
      Re: How long will this take? Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2020-06-09 20:30 +0200
    Re: How long will this take? Seeds Notoneofmy <notoneofmyseeds@gmx.de> - 2020-06-27 01:40 +0200
      Re: How long will this take? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-06-27 03:30 +0200
        Re: How long will this take? Seeds Notoneofmy <notoneofmyseeds@gmx.de> - 2020-06-27 03:50 +0200
          Re: How long will this take? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-06-27 20:10 +0200
      Re: How long will this take? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-27 10:40 +0200
      On Subject drift [was: How long will this take?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-06-27 11:00 +0200
        Re: On Subject drift [was: How long will this take?] l0f4r0@tuta.io - 2020-06-27 11:40 +0200
        Re: On Subject drift [was: How long will this take?] Seeds Notoneofmy <notoneofmyseeds@gmx.de> - 2020-06-27 16:40 +0200
          Re: On Subject drift [was: How long will this take?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-06-27 18:50 +0200

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#223311

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Anders Andersson (12020-06-10):
> Because the police raiding my house for dealing drugs is not a
> realistic threat. Looking at my drives for running Tor could be.

I have tried to explain that your threat assessment is inadequate, you
do not want to listen. Fine, keep wasting your time on your own private
security theater.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#223332

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 4:00 PM Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
>
> Anders Andersson (12020-06-10):
> > Because the police raiding my house for dealing drugs is not a
> > realistic threat. Looking at my drives for running Tor could be.
>
> I have tried to explain that your threat assessment is inadequate, you
> do not want to listen. Fine, keep wasting your time on your own private
> security theater.

It would only take a quick google to show that this is something that
actually happens. Maybe you want to believe it doesn't, but that
doesn't make it less true.

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#223318

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I wipe a new drive for two reasons.

1) I like to make sure it's nice and clean which makes me comfortable. It bothers me if I don't.

2) I can make a reasonable determination about which sectors were used when setting up the partition table(s) and any boot loaders so I know which sectors were used and need to be backed up. Yes, I'm actually going to use dd to back up that space outside of any partition and store it elsewhere so I can restore it later if it is needed. I prefer to be safe rather than sorry. In today's cyberspace you just can't run without a backup. It's not a question of if you will be attacked, but when and how. I refuse to pay a ransom.

If you get a used drive and you are curious then sure, you could go snooping around. I remember when we used a VAX running VMS back in college. It would allocate some huge amount of disk space when compiling our C programs, even though it wasn't used or cleared. I found old deleted emails from other users in that slack space. Yes, they were in plain text. We later found an option to use when compiling our programs to prevent that so our programs didn't have to use as much space which was limited by a disk quota.

name=Matthew%20Campbell&email=trenix25%40pm.me

-------- Original Message --------
On Jun 10, 2020, 6:58 AM, Anders Andersson wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 3:33 PM Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
>>
>> Anders Andersson (12020-06-10):
>> > Except wiping a disk is trivial. Just start the job and come back
>> > later to a clean disk. It's not like you have to wipe it by hand. I do
>> > it routinely before I put a disk to use that's going to be used for a
>> > couple of years.
>>
>> There is no "except" about: define your threat model; if it requires
>> wiping, wipe. If it does not, wiping is just a waste of time, little or
>> lots, still a waste. And it is a waste of power too.
>>
>> There are many things that are trivial to do with a hard drive and could
>> benefit security in far-fetched scenarios. Did you wipe the possible
>> traces of cocaine? Did you weight it to check it matches the specs? Did
>> you take pictures of all angles? All these and many others are trivial.
>> Why one but not the others?
>
> Because the police raiding my house for dealing drugs is not a
> realistic threat. Looking at my drives for running Tor could be.

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#223291

High security operations do this routinely.  They properly don't trust
parts are as labeled from manufacturers especially manufacturers that
send any of their stuff or get any of their stuff from China.
I'm thinking of the binary search method and am wondering if disk
operations of all sorts could be speeded up using it rather than
sequential searches.  Or is binary already used now?

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020, l0f4r0@tuta.io wrote:

> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:08:34
> From: l0f4r0@tuta.io
> To: Debian User <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
> Subject: Re: How long will this take?
> Resent-Date: Tue,  9 Jun 2020 18:08:47 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
> Hi,
>
> 8 juin 2020 ? 22:22 de trenix25@pm.me:
>
> > I bought a new 4 terrabyte hard drive that is connected with a USB cable using USB2.  It took about 32 hours to read every sector on the drive to look for bad sectors.  I started blanking the sectors using /dev/zero last Friday night.
> >
> Out of curiosity, what is the purpose to wipe a brand new HDD?
> Wouldn't formatting (or GPT overwrite) be sufficient?
>
> 9 juin 2020 ? 08:59 de dpchrist@holgerdanske.com:
>
> > Also as others have stated, writing zeros to an SSD may wear it out prematurely (depends upon internals of SSD).  The best approach is to do a "secure erase".
> >
> It seems to be a hard drive here ;)
> > Rather than wiping storage devices with GNU/Linux userland tools, your best bet is to use the manufacturer's diagnostic utility.  In the ideal case, the utility sends a command to the drive controller and everything gets done internally at maximum speed.  I prefer the bootable "Live" tools, if available.  Each manufacturer has their own toolkit.  Get the one for your drive brand.  For example, SeaTools Bootable:
> >
> > https://www.seagate.com/support/downloads/seatools/
> >
> Even more true for an SSD (and yet, I'm not sure we can say "secure" for sure as those utilities are generally proprietary so we cannot verify what they do exactly).
>
> Best regards,
> l0f4r0
>
>

-- 

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#224073

On 6/8/20 10:22 PM, Matthew Campbell wrote:

> I bought a new 4 terrabyte hard drive that is connected with a USB
> cable using USB2. It took about 32 hours to read every sector on the
> drive to look for bad sectors. I started blanking the sectors using
> /dev/zero last Friday night. It still isn't done. Is there a way I can
> find out how much data a particular process has written to the disk?
> I'm using Debian 10.4.
>
> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb ibs=4096 count=976754646
>
> name=Matthew%20Campbell&email=trenix25%40pm.me

Recently I posted here with the subject line: "have you seen this inside..."

And I was lectured by no fewer than three people.

The subject line in this thread is: "How long will this take?"

I struggle to understand the difference between the two subject lines
that merits their different treatment.

Thanks.

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#224076

Quoted lines resequenced for my convenience in responding.

On Friday, June 26, 2020 07:37:57 PM Seeds Notoneofmy wrote:
> I struggle to understand the difference between the two subject lines
> that merits their different treatment.


> The subject line in this thread is: "How long will this take?"

This (the above) subject line is not very good, but at least it gives a hint 
that it  probably is, or at least could be, computer related.

> Recently I posted here with the subject line: "have you seen this
> inside..."

This gives no hint that it is computer related, and sounds very spammy, like 
the subject lines that many of us run into, trying to get us to open an email 
that has subject matter we are absolutely not interested in.
 
> And I was lectured by no fewer than three people.

Not I, said the spider to the fly

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#224078

On 6/27/20 3:20 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> This (the above) subject line is not very good, but at least it gives a hint
> that it  probably is, or at least could be, computer related.

Would you please explain the computer related "hint" in "How long will
this take?"

For starters, I could end that sentence in so many ways, just use your
imagination.

In much the same way I could end,  'have you seen this inside...'

We can drop the subjective statements and look objectively at things.

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#224115

On Friday, June 26, 2020 09:41:26 PM Seeds Notoneofmy wrote:
> On 6/27/20 3:20 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> > This (the above) subject line is not very good, but at least it gives a
> > hint that it  probably is, or at least could be, computer related.
> 
> Would you please explain the computer related "hint" in "How long will
> this take?"

I'm reallly not inclined to do so.  It really doesn't matter if you used a 
poor subject line and somebody else did also -- no point arguing over which is 
worse.

I will say apparently others also were able to see a hint in "how long will 
this take"?

To make a feeble attempt at explaining the hint I saw -- computers require 
time to perform tasks, so that was a hint to me.

"Have you seen this inside" provides no hint to me.

I would suggest that you take the criticism in stride and try to make better 
subjects in the future.  And, if you can suggest better subjects to someone 
else, that can be acceptable as long as you do it with good will.

> For starters, I could end that sentence in so many ways, just use your
> imagination.
> 
> In much the same way I could end,  'have you seen this inside...'
> 
> We can drop the subjective statements and look objectively at things.

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#224092

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On Sb, 27 iun 20, 01:37:57, Seeds Notoneofmy wrote:
> 
> Recently I posted here with the subject line: "have you seen this inside..."
> 
> And I was lectured by no fewer than three people.
> 
> The subject line in this thread is: "How long will this take?"
> 
> I struggle to understand the difference between the two subject lines
> that merits their different treatment.

It seems to me you are complaining that the OP of this thread was not 
lectured as well.

Was this your intention?

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#224094 — On Subject drift [was: How long will this take?]

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On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 01:37:57AM +0200, Seeds Notoneofmy wrote:

[...]

> Recently I posted here with the subject line: "have you seen this inside..."
>
> And I was lectured by no fewer than three people.

As someone of those who did the "lecturing", I somehow feel urged
to respond ;-)

> The subject line in this thread is: "How long will this take?"

Yes. The original subject wasn't very informative. Then, the thread
drifted away (not the subject, as I promised above in the Subject,
alas). This happens, often one small nudge at a time (you may notice
that you just contributed to that yourself ;-)

Sometimes people try to straighten the mess a bit (I tried in this
mail) by adjusting the subject. As a human endeavour, this, too, is
bound to fail alarmingly often.

> I struggle to understand the difference between the two subject lines
> that merits their different treatment.

I'll take your question face value. While there are big similarities
between both, I still see at least two (small!) differences.

1) The subject "how long will this take" at least gives a hint
  at something performance-related. The subject "have you seen
  this inside..." doesn't give any hint.

2) In the current example, the subjet was (somewhat, see (1) for
  the limitations) appropriate in the initial mail and slowly
  lost relevance as the thread drifted away (it still has a bit
  of relevance, since the speed of /dev/urandom is somewhere around
  there).

As to why they merit different treatment -- I don't know. I don't
think so. Human behaviour is messy, more so in big groups. If you
still feel you've been treated unjustly, my apologies are still
up for the part I took in that.

You can always mail me personally if you think there's something
I can/should learn from all that.

Cheers
-- t

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#224100 — Re: On Subject drift [was: How long will this take?]

Hi,

27 juin 2020 à 10:51 de tomas@tuxteam.de:

> I'll take your question face value. While there are big similarities
> between both, I still see at least two (small!) differences.
>
> 1) The subject "how long will this take" at least gives a hint
>  at something performance-related. The subject "have you seen
>  this inside..." doesn't give any hint.
>
> 2) In the current example, the subjet was (somewhat, see (1) for
>  the limitations) appropriate in the initial mail and slowly
>  lost relevance as the thread drifted away (it still has a bit
>  of relevance, since the speed of /dev/urandom is somewhere around
>  there).
>
People can try to find any justification they want, "How long will this take?" was not a "meaningful, specific subject header" either (see http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecific that has been recommended multiple times on this list).

> As to why they merit different treatment -- I don't know. I don't
> think so. Human behaviour is messy, more so in big groups.
>
I think this is definitely the real reason ;)

Best regards,
l0f4r0

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#224108 — Re: On Subject drift [was: How long will this take?]

On 6/27/20 10:51 AM, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> I'll take your question face value. While there are big similarities
> between both, I still see at least two (small!) differences.
>
> 1) The subject "how long will this take" at least gives a hint
>    at something performance-related. The subject "have you seen
>    this inside..." doesn't give any hint.
>
> 2) In the current example, the subjet was (somewhat, see (1) for
>    the limitations) appropriate in the initial mail and slowly
>    lost relevance as the thread drifted away (it still has a bit
>    of relevance, since the speed of /dev/urandom is somewhere around
>    there).
>
> As to why they merit different treatment -- I don't know. I don't
> think so. Human behaviour is messy, more so in big groups. If you
> still feel you've been treated unjustly, my apologies are still
> up for the part I took in that.
>
> You can always mail me personally if you think there's something
> I can/should learn from all that.
>
> Cheers
> -- t

With such a well considered response, I will be foolish, if not stupid,
to press this point further.

And I want to thank you, very much, Tomas, for it. And you're right, I
do feel treated unjustly.

But we can drop all that now. I'm responding primarily to share with you
how much of a man I think you're, based on your response. Thank you.

And you're right too, where ever humans meet, you can expect some mess.
This is not a perfect system here. And I do not wish it so.

My hope is that your handling of it, my bringing it up, would contribute
towards making this 'community' a welcoming place for all.

To learn is a personal effort. I've learnt from this and you have too. I
hope others have as well. The community will be better of it.

Cheers

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#224113 — Re: On Subject drift [was: How long will this take?]

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On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 04:36:03PM +0200, Seeds Notoneofmy wrote:

[...]

Thanks for your kind words.

> To learn is a personal effort. I've learnt from this and you have too. I
> hope others have as well. The community will be better of it.

Let's hope so, yes :-)

Cheers
-- t

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