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Groups > linux.debian.user > #226825 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2020-09-09 15:30 +0200 |
| Last post | 2020-09-10 23:40 +0200 |
| Articles | 9 on this page of 69 — 16 participants |
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LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-09 15:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrew Cater <amacater@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 16:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-09 16:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-09-09 17:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 05:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 08:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2020-09-10 08:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2020-09-10 12:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 14:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-10 16:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2020-09-11 05:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-09 19:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 08:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 19:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-09 19:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 08:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-09-10 09:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 15:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 18:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-09-10 19:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 20:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-09-10 20:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 20:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-09-10 23:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 22:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> - 2020-09-11 22:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-12 11:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 12:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2020-09-12 12:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 20:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2020-09-12 20:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 20:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 22:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 21:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-09-14 14:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-14 16:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> - 2020-09-15 21:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-16 01:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-16 02:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2020-09-16 06:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-16 10:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-16 11:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-09-16 14:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-16 15:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-16 17:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-17 02:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-09-17 09:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-17 21:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-09-17 22:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-17 23:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-18 11:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-18 14:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-09-18 15:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-09-17 22:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-17 23:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-09-18 13:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-18 15:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-09-18 17:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> - 2020-09-18 19:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-19 13:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-19 21:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-21 07:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2020-09-21 13:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-21 17:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-21 21:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-09-20 07:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-18 11:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> - 2020-09-18 12:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2020-09-10 23:40 +0200
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-19 21:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQR1T-6Ji-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227126 |
On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Vi, 18 sep 20, 11:00:11, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote: > > > > I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first option > > (whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last > > option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be > > used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you > > have select that in the other place you mentioned.) > > Even if that is technically correct (it can be use to install only X, if > you configure the installer to not install Recommends), it is, in my not > so humble opinion, an inefficient way to do it and can also have > unintended consequences (what if I want to have only X, but with all > Recommends?). A user wants X with all its recommended packages? Then don't use this technique. > > I suspect many of the newbies to Linux will have heard about GNOME, KDE, along > > with the suggestion to consider one of the other much simpler desktops. (When > > I encounter a newbie, I recommend either KDE or one of the lightweight > > desktops, I'm a "never GNOMEr" > > In my experience (own as well as assisting other newcomers), users > coming from Windows or Mac will be surprised by the mere existence of > different options here. Indeed. > Best to keep it as simple as possible. Keep to what we have? Glad you agree. -- Brian.
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| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-21 07:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ARmS5-FV-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227134 |
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On Sb, 19 sep 20, 20:41:05, Brian wrote: > On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > Best to keep it as simple as possible. > > Keep to what we have? Glad you agree. Well, having GNOME installed after un-checking it is quite the opposite of intuitive in my opinion, so for what it's worth[1], I'd prefer to have that changed. On the other hand it seems this isn't a problem in practice, otherwise the d-i developers would have done something about it. [1] All my recent installs were done with debootstrap/mmdebstrap, so I'm not the target audience of the installer. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
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| From | Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-21 13:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ARskN-3XV-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227197 |
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On Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:45 AM Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sb, 19 sep 20, 20:41:05, Brian wrote: > > On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > Best to keep it as simple as possible. > > > > Keep to what we have? Glad you agree. > > Well, having GNOME installed after un-checking it is quite the opposite > of intuitive in my opinion, so for what it's worth[1], I'd prefer to > have that changed. > > On the other hand it seems this isn't a problem in practice, otherwise > the d-i developers would have done something about it. > > [1] All my recent installs were done with debootstrap/mmdebstrap, so I'm > not the target audience of the installer. > > Kind regards, > Andrei > -- > http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser I recall a recent (10.2) install of Buster, using netinst Expert Text Install, where I allowed a Desktop to install. The "default" was, actually xfce. (Normally, I uncheck all, except for SSH Server and Console Utilities). Kenneth Parker
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-21 17:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ARvLH-6dJ-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227203 |
On Mon 21 Sep 2020 at 07:30:20 (-0400), Kenneth Parker wrote: > On Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:45 AM Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> > wrote: > > On Sb, 19 sep 20, 20:41:05, Brian wrote: > > > On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > > > Best to keep it as simple as possible. > > > > > > Keep to what we have? Glad you agree. > > > > Well, having GNOME installed after un-checking it is quite the opposite > > of intuitive in my opinion, so for what it's worth[1], I'd prefer to > > have that changed. > > > > On the other hand it seems this isn't a problem in practice, otherwise > > the d-i developers would have done something about it. None of the desktops is checked on my screen shots, so wouldn't you have to check GNOME before you unchecked it? > > [1] All my recent installs were done with debootstrap/mmdebstrap, so I'm > > not the target audience of the installer. > > I recall a recent (10.2) install of Buster, using netinst Expert Text > Install, where I allowed a Desktop to install. The "default" was, actually > xfce. Which ISO? > (Normally, I uncheck all, except for SSH Server and Console Utilities). (and sometimes Print.) Cheers, David.
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-21 21:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ARzPj-7G-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227197 |
On Mon 21 Sep 2020 at 08:45:02 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Sb, 19 sep 20, 20:41:05, Brian wrote: > > On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > > Best to keep it as simple as possible. > > > > Keep to what we have? Glad you agree. > > Well, having GNOME installed after un-checking it is quite the opposite > of intuitive in my opinion, so for what it's worth[1], I'd prefer to > have that changed. Have what changed? GNOME is not checked; easily verified by running 'tasksel'. The premise is questionable. > On the other hand it seems this isn't a problem in practice, otherwise > the d-i developers would have done something about it. A sensible view, IMO. This menu has been in place for at least 15 years. A couple of users who cannot sort out how to use it is hardly a basis for altering it. -- Brian.
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| From | Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-20 07:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AR05b-3Ve-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227126 |
On 9/19/2020 6:12 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Vi, 18 sep 20, 11:00:11, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote: > In my experience (own as well as assisting other newcomers), users > coming from Windows or Mac will be surprised by the mere existence of > different options here. Most Windows users are completely shocked by the notion a computer can do anything but browse the internet and play solitaire. To them, computer = video monitor = internet. Frankly, I could not possibly care less what Windows or clueless Mac users find surprising. If soneone wants to cater to them, then that is fine (I suppose), but don't make that a problem for those of us who actually make our computers work for us. "New" and "Stupid" are not the same thing, nor are "long time user" and "Stupid" necessarily mutually exclusive. > Best to keep it as simple as possible. I doubt I could ever possibly disagree more. Make it FLEXIBLE, not simple. Make it POWERFUL, not limited. Make it CONFIGURABLE, not paternalistic. Make it clear and of extreme depth, not infantile. Give the user / admin ABSOLUTE CONTROL. Maintainers and developers should be making as few decisions as possible, which means offering every possible alternative.
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| From | Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-18 11:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQl22-4oX-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227088 |
On 09/17/2020 03:36 PM, Marco Möller wrote: > On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote: >> On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: >> >>> On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: >>>> On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: >>>> Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: >>>> 1. remove the check-box. >>>> 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". >>>> 3. add a default check by GNOME. >>>> >>> >>> YES, Exactly this! >> >> That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user >> to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective >> that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after >> the situation has been explained to you? >> > > The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the > installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would > happen by their selection in this menu. But the need for further > explanation could fully be avoided by simply changing the menu to what > is nicely suggested above, because the above suggested menu would > prevent misunderstandings. > The elsewhere already mentioned idea, to even add an option for letting > a user select if a minimum version of the selected graphical desktop > environment(s) should be installed, or if a more complete version > including additionally recommended packages is preferred, would be perfect. > > I assume that we can all agree, that the experienced users will be able > to deal with any version of that menu, especially as they would also > know how to install their system using apt manually on the console and > therefore might anyway not select anything in this menu. Consequently, > this menu is more targeted to Debian beginners, and Debian beginners > should be welcomed with unequivocal options to select from. > > Best regards, Marco! > > > +1 *Thank You*
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| From | Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-18 12:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQlY6-4Xd-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227088 |
Marco Möller writes: > On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote: >> On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: >> >>> On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: >>>> On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: >>>> Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: >>>> 1. remove the check-box. >>>> 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". >>>> 3. add a default check by GNOME. >>>> >>> >>> YES, Exactly this! >> >> That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user >> to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective >> that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after >> the situation has been explained to you? >> > > The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the > installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would > happen by their selection in this menu. But the need for further > explanation could fully be avoided by simply changing the menu to what > is nicely suggested above, because the above suggested menu would > prevent misunderstandings. > The elsewhere already mentioned idea, to even add an option for > letting a user select if a minimum version of the selected graphical > desktop environment(s) should be installed, or if a more complete > version including additionally recommended packages is preferred, > would be perfect. > > I assume that we can all agree, that the experienced users will be > able to deal with any version of that menu, especially as they would > also know how to install their system using apt manually on the > console and therefore might anyway not select anything in this > menu. Consequently, this menu is more targeted to Debian beginners, > and Debian beginners should be welcomed with unequivocal options to > select from. > > Best regards, Marco! +1 -- Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D
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| From | mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-10 23:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ANCsp-3Ec-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #226825 |
On 2020-09-09 14:27, Richard Owlett wrote: > My proposed alternative is to leave unchecked all options on the > "Software Selection" menu[1] and create appropriate pseudo-packages to > be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends" I suppose if you were *that* concerned you could install a basic system and install everything from sources. What that "basic system" would contain I don't really know. But that's what the nice people at Debian do so you don't have to. mick -- Key ID 4BFEBB31
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