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Groups > linux.debian.user > #226825 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2020-09-09 15:30 +0200 |
| Last post | 2020-09-10 23:40 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 69 — 16 participants |
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LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-09 15:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrew Cater <amacater@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 16:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-09 16:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-09-09 17:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 05:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 08:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2020-09-10 08:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2020-09-10 12:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 14:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-10 16:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2020-09-11 05:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-09 19:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 08:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 19:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-09 19:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 08:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-09-10 09:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 15:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 18:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-09-10 19:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-10 20:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-09-10 20:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 20:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2020-09-10 23:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 22:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> - 2020-09-11 22:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-12 11:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 12:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2020-09-12 12:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 20:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2020-09-12 20:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 20:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 22:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-12 21:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-09-14 14:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-14 16:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> - 2020-09-15 21:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-16 01:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-16 02:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2020-09-16 06:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-16 10:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-16 11:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-09-16 14:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-16 15:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-16 17:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-17 02:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-09-17 09:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-17 21:00 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-09-17 22:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-17 23:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-18 11:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-18 14:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-09-18 15:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-09-17 22:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-17 23:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-09-18 13:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-18 15:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-09-18 17:10 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> - 2020-09-18 19:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-19 13:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-19 21:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-21 07:50 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2020-09-21 13:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-21 17:20 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-09-21 21:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-09-20 07:30 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2020-09-18 11:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> - 2020-09-18 12:40 +0200
Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2020-09-10 23:40 +0200
Page 3 of 4 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 Next page →
| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-16 10:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <APBix-1QC-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227016 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Ma, 15 sep 20, 18:50:57, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 (+0200), Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote: > > > > Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option > > presented to the user? > > No. On the basis of little evidence, I think naive users need software > installed that offers its full functionality. The more sophisticated > users who yearn after simplicity can easily find out how to prevent > Recommends from being installed. +1 > But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the > debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed. > I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at > one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps > a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free? For installs small enough to benefit from this I generally use debootstrap/mmdebstrap. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
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| From | Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-16 11:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <APBsd-1U1-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227016 |
On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 (+0200), Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote:
>> Brian writes:
>>> On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>>>
>>> The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package
>>> recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one
>>> listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer
>>> does know what the default is.
>>>
>>> Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to
>>> false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked,
>>> a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and
>>> enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this.
>>
>> When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel
>> dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think
>> we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes
>> to check according to what they want.
>>
>> Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option
>> presented to the user?
>
> No. On the basis of little evidence, I think naive users need software
> installed that offers its full functionality.
Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
1. remove the check-box.
2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
3. add a default check by GNOME.
> The more sophisticated
> users who yearn after simplicity can easily find out how to prevent
> Recommends from being installed.
"easily" ???
Probably after first time you have success ;/
>
> But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the
> debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed.
> I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at
> one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps
> a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free?
>
> Cheers,
> David.
>
>
>
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| From | rhkramer@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-16 14:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <APEJr-45P-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227026 |
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 04:54:57 AM Richard Owlett wrote: > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: > 1. remove the check-box. > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". > 3. add a default check by GNOME. +1 -- that seems much clearer to me (Of course, I would put the default check by KDE ;-)
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| From | Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-16 15:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <APFvQ-4AX-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227032 |
On 09/16/2020 07:23 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote: > On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 04:54:57 AM Richard Owlett wrote: >> Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: >> 1. remove the check-box. >> 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". >> 3. add a default check by GNOME. > > +1 -- that seems much clearer to me > > (Of course, I would put the default check by KDE ;-) If I had my "druthers" I'd put it by Mate. But there are some windmills that I don't tilt with ;/
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-16 17:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <APHei-5FN-21@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227032 |
On Wed 16 Sep 2020 at 08:23:50 -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote: > On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 04:54:57 AM Richard Owlett wrote: > > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: > > 1. remove the check-box. A user now cannot install task-desktop alone. In other words, he would be unable to install just X using tasksel. > > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". The removed option is not about installing *a* Debian desktop environment. It is about installing Debian desktop environment; that is, installlng task-desktop. This proposal completely alters the meaning of the present text and works against the purpose of this portion the menu. > > 3. add a default check by GNOME. Suggested and countered in a number of previous posts. > +1 -- that seems much clearer to me It would be useful to know what needs clarifying. -- Brian.
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-17 02:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <APQhz-2vf-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227026 |
On Wed 16 Sep 2020 at 03:54:57 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
> > On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 (+0200), Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote:
> > > Brian writes:
> > > > On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package
> > > > recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one
> > > > listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer
> > > > does know what the default is.
> > > >
> > > > Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to
> > > > false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked,
> > > > a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and
> > > > enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this.
> > >
> > > When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel
> > > dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think
> > > we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes
> > > to check according to what they want.
> > >
> > > Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option
> > > presented to the user?
> >
> > No. On the basis of little evidence, I think naive users need software
> > installed that offers its full functionality.
>
> Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
> 1. remove the check-box.
> 2. rephrase it as "Cho[o]se a Debian desktop environment".
Without considering Brian's point as to the wisdom of (1),
(2) doesn't allow for zero, or two upwards. (IOW we have a
set of checkboxes, not radio buttons.
> 3. add a default check by GNOME.
>
> > The more sophisticated
> > users who yearn after simplicity can easily find out how to prevent
> > Recommends from being installed.
>
> "easily" ???
> Probably after first time you have success ;/
I recall your difficulty back in October, but that was just
accidentally missing out the "install" command. For others, the first
hit for "recommends" in man apt-get is:
--no-install-recommends
Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for
installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends
which covers the command line method and the configuration file method.
> > But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the
> > debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed.
> > I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at
> > one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps
> > a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free?
Felix just reminded me of a paragraph that I probably read about ten
years ago and promptly forgot about, as it ends with "This option
should therefore only be used by very experienced users."
That statement might answer my last question.
Cheers,
David.
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| From | Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-17 09:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <APWGm-6H3-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227026 |
On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: > 1. remove the check-box. > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". > 3. add a default check by GNOME. > YES, Exactly this! Best regards, Marco.
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-17 21:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQ7ip-4yc-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227068 |
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: > On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: > > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: > > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: > > 1. remove the check-box. > > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". > > 3. add a default check by GNOME. > > > > YES, Exactly this! That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after the situation has been explained to you? -- Brian
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| From | rhkramer@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-17 22:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQ8oa-5pH-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227086 |
On Thursday, September 17, 2020 02:58:19 PM Brian wrote: > On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: > > On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: > > > > > > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: > > > 1. remove the check-box. > > > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". > > > 3. add a default check by GNOME. > > > > YES, Exactly this! > > That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user > to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective > that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after > the situation has been explained to you? I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while taking a break from yardwork): * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...? * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)? * and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop provides that is not included with any of the DEs?
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-17 23:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQ9WW-6bl-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227087 |
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 16:07:56 -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote: > On Thursday, September 17, 2020 02:58:19 PM Brian wrote: > > On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: > > > On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: > > > > > > > > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: > > > > 1. remove the check-box. > > > > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". > > > > 3. add a default check by GNOME. > > > > > > YES, Exactly this! > > > > That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user > > to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective > > that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after > > the situation has been explained to you? > > > I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while taking > a break from yardwork): > > * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed > if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...? > > * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one > of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)? > > * and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop > provides that is not included with any of the DEs? All three of these questions have been answered twice. -- Brian.
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| From | Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-18 11:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQl23-4oX-25@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227092 |
On 09/17/2020 04:44 PM, Brian wrote:
> On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 16:07:56 -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, September 17, 2020 02:58:19 PM Brian wrote:
>>> On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
>>>> On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:
>>>>> On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
>>>>> 1. remove the check-box.
>>>>> 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
>>>>> 3. add a default check by GNOME.
>>>>
>>>> YES, Exactly this!
>>>
>>> That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user
>>> to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective
>>> that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after
>>> the situation has been explained to you?
>>
>>
>> I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while taking
>> a break from yardwork):
>>
>> * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed
>> if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?
>>
>> * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one
>> of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?
>>
>> * and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop
>> provides that is not included with any of the DEs?
>
> All three of these questions have been answered twice.
>
If answered {which I doubt}, the explicit answers to those explicit
questions were not conveyed to readers.
P.S. Note a repetition?
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-18 14:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQnwS-5XC-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227097 |
On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 04:36:08 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while taking
> > > a break from yardwork):
> > >
> > > * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed
> > > if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?
> > >
> > > * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one
> > > of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?
> > > * and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop
> > > provides that is not included with any of the DEs?
> >
> > All three of these questions have been answered twice.
> >
>
> If answered {which I doubt}, the explicit answers to those explicit
> questions were not conveyed to readers.
> * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed
> if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?
It provides the default DE (and can be preseeded with tasksel/first) :
Recommends: task-gnome-desktop | task-xfce-desktop | task-kde-desktop |
task-lxde-desktop | task-cinnamon-desktop |
task-mate-desktop | task-lxqt-desktop
It allows only X to be installed (--no-install-recommends):
Depends: tasksel (= 3.53), xorg, xserver-xorg-video-all,
xserver-xorg-input-all, desktop-base
> * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one
> of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?
It allows only X to be installed (--no-install-recommends).
> * and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop
> provides that is not included with any of the DEs?
For task-mate-desktop:
Depends: tasksel (= 3.53), task-desktop, mate-desktop-environment,
lightdm
It is not possible to install only X.
I hope this helps in the exploration of the task selection menu and the
search for leanness.
--
Brian.
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| From | rhkramer@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-18 15:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQosV-6vN-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227103 |
Thank you! On Friday, September 18, 2020 08:12:34 AM Brian wrote: > It provides the default DE (and can be preseeded with tasksel/first) :
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| From | Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-17 22:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQ8Rc-5yZ-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227086 |
On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote: > On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: > >> On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: >>> On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: >>> Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: >>> 1. remove the check-box. >>> 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". >>> 3. add a default check by GNOME. >>> >> >> YES, Exactly this! > > That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user > to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective > that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after > the situation has been explained to you? > The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would happen by their selection in this menu. But the need for further explanation could fully be avoided by simply changing the menu to what is nicely suggested above, because the above suggested menu would prevent misunderstandings. The elsewhere already mentioned idea, to even add an option for letting a user select if a minimum version of the selected graphical desktop environment(s) should be installed, or if a more complete version including additionally recommended packages is preferred, would be perfect. I assume that we can all agree, that the experienced users will be able to deal with any version of that menu, especially as they would also know how to install their system using apt manually on the console and therefore might anyway not select anything in this menu. Consequently, this menu is more targeted to Debian beginners, and Debian beginners should be welcomed with unequivocal options to select from. Best regards, Marco!
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-17 23:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQ9WW-6bl-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227088 |
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 22:36:31 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: > On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote: > > On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote: > > > > > On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote: > > > > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would: > > > > 1. remove the check-box. > > > > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment". > > > > 3. add a default check by GNOME. > > > > > > > > > > YES, Exactly this! > > > > That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user > > to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective > > that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after > > the situation has been explained to you? > > > > The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the > installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would happen by > their selection in this menu. The function of the menu is crystal clear. Activating as it as presented a user gets the ticked option. Unticking the option gets the user nothing. Start with that. -- Brian.
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| From | Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-18 13:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQmU9-5vj-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227091 |
On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 10:42:59PM +0100, Brian wrote: > The function of the menu is crystal clear. > > Activating as it as presented a user gets the ticked option. > > Unticking the option gets the user nothing. > > Start with that. Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked, you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked. How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me.
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-18 15:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQoCB-6yN-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227102 |
On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 07:32:46 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 10:42:59PM +0100, Brian wrote: > > The function of the menu is crystal clear. > > > > Activating as it as presented a user gets the ticked option. > > > > Unticking the option gets the user nothing. > > > > Start with that. > > Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked, > you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to > be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked. I don't really want to nit-pick but, when the menu is presented, only "Debian desktop environment" is selected. A user who wonders what it provides is free to read the available documentation (Installation Guide, wiki etc) to resolve the mystery. When I have a Bash issue I often find a bit of reading clarifies matters :). The default desktop is determined by the Recommends: of task-desktop. The DEs are installed based on the Depends: of the various packages. Is there a better way of doing it? > How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me. I'll take that to be rhetorical. Regarding new users: they are just as likely to be mystified by "lxde" and "lxqt" as by "Debian desktop environment". -- Brian.
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| From | rhkramer@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-18 17:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQqbn-7zP-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227106 |
On Friday, September 18, 2020 09:21:21 AM Brian wrote: > On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 07:32:46 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked, > > you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to > > be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked. ... > The default desktop is determined by the Recommends: of task-desktop. > The DEs are installed based on the Depends: of the various packages. > Is there a better way of doing it? > > > How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me. > ... > Regarding new users: they are just as likely to be mystified by "lxde" > and "lxqt" as by "Debian desktop environment". I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first option (whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you have select that in the other place you mentioned.) I suspect many of the newbies to Linux will have heard about GNOME, KDE, along with the suggestion to consider one of the other much simpler desktops. (When I encounter a newbie, I recommend either KDE or one of the lightweight desktops, I'm a "never GNOMEr"
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| From | Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY <noon@mykolab.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-18 19:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQsdb-jG-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227108 |
rhkramer@gmail.com writes: > On Friday, September 18, 2020 09:21:21 AM Brian wrote: >> On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 07:32:46 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: >> > Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked, >> > you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to >> > be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked. > >> The default desktop is determined by the Recommends: of task-desktop. >> The DEs are installed based on the Depends: of the various packages. >> Is there a better way of doing it? >> >> > How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me. > >> Regarding new users: they are just as likely to be mystified by "lxde" >> and "lxqt" as by "Debian desktop environment". > > I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first option > (whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last > option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be > used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you > have select that in the other place you mentioned.) And in that case, if users insist on this possibility, it would be much more useful to have this entry *always* install X only even without the "no recommends" option. -- Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D
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| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-09-19 13:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <AQJ4m-25N-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #227108 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Vi, 18 sep 20, 11:00:11, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote: > > I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first option > (whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last > option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be > used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you > have select that in the other place you mentioned.) Even if that is technically correct (it can be use to install only X, if you configure the installer to not install Recommends), it is, in my not so humble opinion, an inefficient way to do it and can also have unintended consequences (what if I want to have only X, but with all Recommends?). > I suspect many of the newbies to Linux will have heard about GNOME, KDE, along > with the suggestion to consider one of the other much simpler desktops. (When > I encounter a newbie, I recommend either KDE or one of the lightweight > desktops, I'm a "never GNOMEr" In my experience (own as well as assisting other newcomers), users coming from Windows or Mac will be surprised by the mere existence of different options here. Best to keep it as simple as possible. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
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