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Re: Do have programs have poor documentation?

From Eike Lantzsch <zp6cge@gmx.net>
Newsgroups linux.debian.user
Subject Re: Do have programs have poor documentation?
Date 2017-01-01 18:00 +0100
Message-ID <sUREd-2NG-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References <sUoiR-18f-9@gated-at.bofh.it> <sUpyh-1Ov-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <sUMEy-8cm-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization Deep Space Obscuratory

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On Sunday, 1 January 2017 12:36:51 PYST Xen wrote:
> Thomas Schmitt schreef op 31-12-2016 11:59:
> > Well, "info" is the pet of GNU and thus often better documentation for
> > GNU tools than their "man" pages.
> > The goal and viewpoint is nevertheless the same: Technical
> > documentation
> > of programs, not tutorial.
> 
> I personally also cannot use "info". I have tried many times in the
> past. Always gave up pretty quickly. Just unusable to me.
> 
> I would need to study a tutorial on how to use info and I don't even
> want to.
> 
> > The reason why many large man pages or info documents are so hard to
> > grasp is really in the difference of viewpoints. Too much background
> > knowledge and too exotic programmer's motivations, i assume.
> 
> Yes exactly. You are assumed to already know the program when you start
> reading the man page.
> 
> You are assumed to know everything the programmer knows. This is the
> "Linux is easy" fallacy that originates from people forgetting how long
> it took them to acquire some knowledge, and now they think it was easy
> all this time for them, but they had to become familiar with it at first
> as well.
> 
> For example, if you are new to LVM, and you are in some rescue mode that
> doesn't automatically activate your volume groups, doing "vgchange -ay"
> is not that intuitive. "man lvm" is also not helpful. You will first
> need to find the required command (vgchange) before you can get any
> help, but you don't know that you need that one because you don't feel
> you want to change the vg, you only want to activate it. This can
> quickly elude you for some time and especially if you are in a pinch and
> suffering already, you may not have the time and mental capacity for it.
> You are trying to rescue your system and cannot find the tool to do it
> with, but you don't have internet so you can't look it up and.....
> 
> Then some fool will later day: "Why don't you just do vgchange -ay?" And
> if you then say "Well that is not that easy to know" they will say "man
> vgchange" "easy".
> 
> > Nevertheless i suffer like most other people when i have to study
> > foreign
> > technical docs for the first time.
> > So it is not dumb user versus smart programmer but rather insider
> > versus
> > newcommer.
> 
> Yes, exactly.
Interestingly enough the motto of 33. Chaos Communication Congress in Hamburg 
was: "Works for me". They aimed at getting programmers out of their lethargy 
because their software not only has to "work for them" but also for everybody 
else. An interesting write-up is here:
https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/33C3-Hacker-greifen-nach-der-grossen-politischen-Nummer-3579778.html?wt_mc=rss.ho.beitrag.rdf
Unfortunately only in German but Google Translate might help. Well maybe not 
so much with "The Awful German Language" [tm Marc Twain]
Cheers
Eike

-- 
Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE
Asuncion / Paraguay

“Do you actually know what you are reading?”
He said: “Really, how could I ever do so unless
someone guided me?” ... (Acts 8:30, 31)

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Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-11-16 15:20 +0100
  Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-11-16 16:00 +0100
    Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2016-11-16 16:20 +0100
      Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-11-16 19:40 +0100
        Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2016-11-17 13:20 +0100
          Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-11-17 15:30 +0100
            Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2016-11-17 15:50 +0100
    Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-11-17 15:50 +0100
      Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-11-17 17:40 +0100
      Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2016-11-17 18:10 +0100
      Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" kamaraju kusumanchi <raju.mailinglists@gmail.com> - 2016-11-22 06:40 +0100
  Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-11-16 16:40 +0100
    Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-11-17 16:00 +0100
      Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" "John L. Ries" <jries@salford-systems.com> - 2016-11-17 19:00 +0100
        Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2016-11-17 22:40 +0100
        Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-11-17 22:40 +0100
        Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" rhkramer@gmail.com - 2016-11-18 00:10 +0100
      Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-11-17 22:30 +0100
        Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2016-11-17 22:40 +0100
          Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-11-17 22:40 +0100
            Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2016-11-17 23:00 +0100
              Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2016-11-18 09:20 +0100
          Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" rhkramer@gmail.com - 2016-11-18 00:10 +0100
  Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" emetib <chadbrabec@gmail.com> - 2016-11-18 09:50 +0100
    Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-11-18 10:40 +0100
    Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2016-11-18 11:10 +0100
      Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" emetib <chadbrabec@gmail.com> - 2016-11-18 20:30 +0100
      Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") cbannister@slingshot.co.nz - 2016-12-29 15:10 +0100
        Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2016-12-29 19:10 +0100
        Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2016-12-29 19:10 +0100
          Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 19:40 +0100
            Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2016-12-29 19:40 +0100
            Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2016-12-29 19:40 +0100
              Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 19:50 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2016-12-30 02:40 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") rhkramer@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 03:30 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 03:40 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2016-12-30 15:40 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? --  "A Modest Proposal") Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2016-12-30 18:00 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? --  "A Modest Proposal") Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2016-12-30 15:40 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") rhkramer@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 15:50 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") rhkramer@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 15:50 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 16:00 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-12-30 17:20 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2016-12-31 08:30 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2016-12-31 09:50 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-12-31 10:40 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@gmail.com> - 2016-12-31 17:20 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2017-01-01 13:00 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2017-01-01 13:20 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2017-01-01 14:00 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Nemeth Gyorgy <friczy@freemail.hu> - 2016-12-31 10:40 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2016-12-31 12:00 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2017-01-01 12:40 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-01-01 14:10 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2017-01-01 19:10 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-01-01 20:50 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-01-01 15:10 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-01-01 20:50 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-01-02 02:10 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-01-02 02:30 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-01-02 16:00 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-01-02 17:30 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-01-02 18:20 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-01-02 18:50 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? Eike Lantzsch <zp6cge@gmx.net> - 2017-01-01 18:00 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2017-01-01 19:30 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") rhkramer@gmail.com - 2016-12-31 15:20 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2017-01-01 12:40 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? --  "A Modest Proposal") David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-01-02 15:50 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-01-02 17:20 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? --  "A Modest Proposal") David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-01-02 18:10 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-01-02 18:50 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Jörg-Volker Peetz <jvpeetz@web.de> - 2017-01-02 19:10 +0100
        Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2016-12-30 02:40 +0100
          Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 03:30 +0100
            Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 18:30 +0100
              Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? --  "A Modest Proposal") Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2017-01-01 12:40 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? --  "A Modest Proposal") Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-01-01 12:50 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-01-01 14:10 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? --  "A Modest Proposal") Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-01-01 15:10 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-01-01 16:40 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? --  "A Modest Proposal") Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-01-01 17:20 +0100
                [OT] on education [was]: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-01-01 20:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] on education [was]: Do have programs have poor  documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-01-01 23:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] on education [was]: Do have programs have poor  documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-01-02 01:30 +0100
              Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2017-03-12 17:50 +0100
            Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2016-12-31 08:30 +0100
              Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-12-31 10:30 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2017-01-01 13:00 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-01-01 13:00 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2017-01-01 13:30 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-01-01 14:20 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2017-01-01 18:00 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <xen@dds.nl> - 2017-01-01 20:10 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? --  "A Modest Proposal") Bob Holtzman <holtzm@cox.net> - 2017-01-02 20:40 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? --  "A Modest Proposal") cbannister@slingshot.co.nz - 2017-03-11 10:00 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> - 2017-03-11 12:50 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-03-11 14:30 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2017-03-11 19:30 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? --  "A  Modest Proposal") Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2017-03-13 13:10 +0100
          Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 04:40 +0100
            Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> - 2016-12-31 08:40 +0100
          Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 12:40 +0100
            Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-12-30 13:30 +0100
              Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? --  "A  Modest Proposal") Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2016-12-30 15:50 +0100
            Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") rhkramer@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 15:50 +0100
              Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 20:50 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-12-31 00:20 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2016-12-31 01:10 +0100
                Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal") Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-12-31 01:50 +0100
                [OT] Antikythera mechanism [was Re: Do have programs have poor  documentation?] Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2016-12-31 03:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Antikythera mechanism [was Re: Do have programs have poor documentation?] deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2016-12-31 10:20 +0100
        Re: Do have programs have poor documentation? (was ... Re: Why? -- "A  Modest Proposal") Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2017-03-11 22:50 +0100
  Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" kamaraju kusumanchi <raju.mailinglists@gmail.com> - 2016-11-22 07:10 +0100
    Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2016-11-22 13:00 +0100
    Re: Why? -- "A Modest Proposal" Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-11-22 13:30 +0100

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