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Groups > linux.debian.project > #10921 > unrolled thread

Debian and Non-Free Services

Started bySam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org>
First post2019-09-12 19:40 +0200
Last post2019-09-16 23:10 +0200
Articles 6 on this page of 46 — 32 participants

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  Debian and Non-Free Services Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-09-12 19:40 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2019-09-12 20:00 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Norbert Preining <preining@logic.at> - 2019-09-13 01:30 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-09-16 19:10 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2019-10-04 17:10 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-09-12 22:30 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 00:50 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2019-09-13 08:20 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 20:40 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-09-12 22:50 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Yao Wei <mwei@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 01:00 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 20:20 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services "Yao Wei (魏銘廷)" <mwei@debian.org> - 2019-09-15 23:00 +0200
            Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-09-16 15:40 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-09-13 02:40 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 04:30 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 18:00 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-10-04 18:00 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-10-04 18:30 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-10-05 01:20 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-10-09 16:20 +0200
            Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-10-10 00:20 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-10-04 20:40 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> - 2019-10-04 21:20 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2019-10-06 08:50 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-10-06 15:00 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Jose-Luis Rivas <ghostbar@debian.org> - 2019-10-07 05:30 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Michael Lustfield <michael@lustfield.net> - 2019-10-08 10:10 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services "Xavier" <yadd@debian.org> - 2019-10-08 13:10 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2019-10-08 17:00 +0200
            Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2019-10-09 00:40 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ondrej Novy <novy@ondrej.org> - 2019-10-09 12:40 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-10-09 16:20 +0200
          Re: I think We're Done: Debian and Non-Free Services Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-10-09 17:40 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 09:40 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Andy Simpkins <rattusrattus@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 13:00 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Dmitry Eremin-Solenikov <dbaryshkov@gmail.com> - 2019-09-13 13:10 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> - 2019-09-13 15:00 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 17:00 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-09-13 17:40 +0200
            Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-09-13 18:00 +0200
            Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-09-16 19:00 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2019-09-13 13:40 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-09-13 19:50 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bart Martens <bartm@debian.org> - 2019-09-15 20:10 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Anonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org> - 2019-09-16 23:10 +0200

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#10939

FromNorbert Preining <norbert@preining.info>
Date2019-09-13 18:00 +0200
Message-ID<yFW9j-6jY-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#10938

On September 14, 2019 12:29:19 AM GMT+09:00, Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> wrote:
>Is anyone actually doing that?  I think this entire thread is nothing
>more 
>than a stalking horse for Ian's crusade to get everyone to use dgit and
>we 
>should just move on.

+100

Best comment till now. "Crusade" is the word I should have used in other occasions.

Norbert


--
PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

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#10947

FromBernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de>
Date2019-09-16 19:00 +0200
Message-ID<yH2w1-2n4-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#10938

On 9/13/19 5:29 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Friday, September 13, 2019 10:52:37 AM EDT Sam Hartman wrote:
>>>>>>> "MJ" == MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> writes:
>>     MJ> I have some sympathy with the "send a patch to bugs.debian.org"
>>     MJ> view.  Do any developers ignore those and tell people to join
>>     MJ> github to use its private version of pull requests? I know I
>>     MJ> have patches ignored in there but I don't remember being told to
>>     MJ> go sign a github contract.
>>
>> I believe we have a strong consensus in the Git Packaging Round 1 thread
>> on debian-devel that maintainers are expected to process patches
>> submitted through the BTS.  Telling someone they needed to use Github
>> would be unacceptable in my mind.
> 
> Is anyone actually doing that?  I think this entire thread is nothing more 
> than a stalking horse for Ian's crusade to get everyone to use dgit and we 
> should just move on.

Absolutely.

Nobody should be forced to use a tool - or not.

Also if you want to send a pull request and don't want to use github,
clone the repo to whatever service you like and send a PR from there via
the BTS. Where is the problem?



-- 
 Bernd Zeimetz                            Debian GNU/Linux Developer
 http://bzed.de                                http://www.debian.org
 GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485  DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F

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#10934

FromHolger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org>
Date2019-09-13 13:40 +0200
Message-ID<yFS5H-3Fp-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#10921

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 01:30:24PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
>   Subject: Free Software Needs Free Tools
 
ZOMG.

IMO one of the less good ideas brought to this list. I will refrain from
further comments for everyones benefit, Ansgar brought up the most
relevant objections already.


-- 
cheers,
	Holger

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
               holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
       PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C

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#10941

FromIan Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Date2019-09-13 19:50 +0200
Message-ID<yFXRL-7wa-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#10921
Sam Hartman writes ("Debian and Non-Free Services"):
> I'm trying to move a thread from -devel.
> 
> Ian Jackson responded [1] to part of a consensus discussion on Git
>   recommendations.  I had said that I think we recommend against the use
>   of non-free services like Github but do not forbid their use.
>   Ian disagreed with this recommendation.

Sam, from this thread, it seems very likely[1] that you were right
about where Debian's consensus was, and that I was wrong.

> He proposed the following text for such a GR.

Also Enrico Zini sent a couple of messages where he strongly objected
to this escalation by me.  IME Enrico Zini is usually right.  I should
have listened to him more carefully the first time.

For my own part, I'm going to drop this suggestion now.  I still don't
agree with the apparent project consensus but I want to spend my
energy on something more constructive.

Ian.

[1] Even allowing for the fact that mailing list threads are not a
 very reliable way to judge the project's overall views.

-- 
Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk>   These opinions are my own.

If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

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#10944

FromBart Martens <bartm@debian.org>
Date2019-09-15 20:10 +0200
Message-ID<yGH8d-4Jz-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#10921
On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 01:30:24PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to move a thread from -devel.
> 
> Ian Jackson responded [1] to part of a consensus discussion on Git
>   recommendations.  I had said that I think we recommend against the use
>   of non-free services like Github but do not forbid their use.
>   Ian disagreed with this recommendation.
> 
> I responded [2] noting that around 7% of the packages with a vcs-git in
>   unstable are hosted on Github.
> 
> Ian said [3] that he was confident if we had a GR to forbid use of services
>   like Github it would pass.
> 
> He proposed the following text for such a GR.
> 
> I think such a discussion is better on -project.

Thanks.

> 
>   [1]:
>   https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/23927.51367.848949.15475@chiark.greenend.org.uk
>   [2]: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/tslwoedy93e.fsf_-_@suchdamage.org
>   [3]:
>   https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/23930.17192.131171.455527@chiark.greenend.org.uk
>   
>   
>   Subject: Free Software Needs Free Tools
> 
>   No Debian contributor should be expected or encouraged, when working
>   to improve Debian, to use non-free tools.  

That applies to any tool, also free ones.

>   This includes proprietary
>   web services.

And free web services.

>   We will ensure this, insofar as it is within Debian's
>   collective control.
> 
>   For example, Vcs-Git fields in source packages must not refer to
>   proprietary git code management systems.  Non-Debian services are
>   acceptable here so long as they are principally Free Software.

Then maintainers could remove them as a workaround.

> 
>   We encourage all our upstreams to use Free/Libre tools.
> 
>   We recognise that metadata in Debian which describes the behaviour
>   of those outside our community, for example fields which refer to
>   upstream source management systems, may (in order to be accurate)
>   still need to refer to proprietary systems.

Our upstreams are free to use what they want.

Note that salsa.d.o is a legal risk. When a contributor uploads
non-distributable software, then Debian is in fact redistributing it
immediately. Should we promote Github? :-)

Cheers,

Bart

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#10949

FromAnonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org>
Date2019-09-16 23:10 +0200
Message-ID<yH6pY-5iY-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#10921
A General Resolution might be necessary concerning potential
misinterpretation of Debian Social Contract in the project.

1. "We will never make the system require the use of a non-free
component."

Are webservices for example gitlab.com, cloudflare.com or dns.google a
required component in Debian and how do they qualify as non-/free?


Thanks all!

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