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Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects

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  Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure  projects Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-06-09 13:50 +0200
    Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure  projects Geert Stappers <stappers@debian.org> - 2019-06-09 14:40 +0200
    Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-06-09 15:00 +0200
      Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure  projects Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-06-09 16:40 +0200
        Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-06-09 17:10 +0200
        Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects "Chris Lamb" <lamby@debian.org> - 2019-06-10 15:50 +0200
          Alternatives to the Socratic Method Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-10 16:40 +0200
            Re: Alternatives to the Socratic Method "Chris Lamb" <lamby@debian.org> - 2019-06-10 22:00 +0200
              Re: Alternatives to the Socratic Method Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-10 22:50 +0200

#10566 — Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects

On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 12:55:14PM +0200, Jonas Meurer wrote:
> Hi,

Hi Jonas,

>...
> So here's the idea we came up with: We could explicitely broaden the
> scope of debian-mentors to include any questions regarding Debian
> infrastructure software.
> That basicly would mean to explicitely mention "questions on
> infrastruc-ture projects" in our docs about debian-mentors.
> Additionally, when the infrastructure teams don't have time to mentor
> new contributors, they could point them to debian-mentors.
> 
> My hope is that having debian-mentors as an endorsed entry point for
> diving into Debian infrastructure would lower the entry barrier
> significantly for new contributors who'd like to dive into our
> infrastructure software projects.
> 
> What do you think about this proposal?

who will provide the answers to non-trivial questions?

For most packaging questions a list with plenty of DM/DD is sufficient 
to get an answer.

For the typical infrastructure project the number of people in Debian 
who can answer non-trivial questions is in the low single-digits.

> Cheers
>  jonas
> 
> [1] Let me give two examples for such "infrastructure projects":
>     */ Many in Debian agree that Debbugs could need some love, but still
>     it's developed and maintained largely by one brave soul.
>...

What will happen if a newbie starts asking questions about debbugs on 
debian-mentors?

Will the questions be ignored, or will you try to force this one brave 
soul to become a mentor for whatever people from the internet start
asking questions?

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

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#10567

On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 02:44:40PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 12:55:14PM +0200, Jonas Meurer wrote:
> > Hi,
> 
> Hi Jonas,

Hello both mailinglists,

 
> >...
> > So here's the idea we came up with: We could explicitely broaden the
> > scope of debian-mentors to include any questions regarding Debian
> > infrastructure software.
> > 
> > What do you think about this proposal?

I think it is a good proposal.

The thing I real like is adding scope to a mailinglist.

(I'm no fan of splitting our community in many many mailinglists.)


> 
> who will provide the answers to non-trivial questions?
> 
> For most packaging questions a list with plenty of DM/DD is sufficient 
> to get an answer.
> 
> For the typical infrastructure project the number of people in Debian 
> who can answer non-trivial questions is in the low single-digits.
> 
> > Cheers
> >  jonas
> > 
> > [1] Let me give two examples for such "infrastructure projects":
> >     */ Many in Debian agree that Debbugs could need some love, but still
> >     it's developed and maintained largely by one brave soul.
> >...
> 
> What will happen if a newbie starts asking questions about debbugs on 
> debian-mentors?
> 
> Will the questions be ignored, or will you try to force this one brave 
> soul to become a mentor for whatever people from the internet start
> asking questions?


Just let see what happens.

In case the questions were to prevent that things get happen[1],
please express the concern.


Groeten
Geert Stappers

[1] getting forward, moving on, evolution.
-- 
Leven en laten leven

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#10568 — Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects

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Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes:

> On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 12:55:14PM +0200, Jonas Meurer wrote:
>> Hi,
>
> Hi Jonas,
>
>>...
>> So here's the idea we came up with: We could explicitely broaden the
>> scope of debian-mentors to include any questions regarding Debian
>> infrastructure software.
>> That basicly would mean to explicitely mention "questions on
>> infrastruc-ture projects" in our docs about debian-mentors.
>> Additionally, when the infrastructure teams don't have time to mentor
>> new contributors, they could point them to debian-mentors.
>> 
>> My hope is that having debian-mentors as an endorsed entry point for
>> diving into Debian infrastructure would lower the entry barrier
>> significantly for new contributors who'd like to dive into our
>> infrastructure software projects.
>> 
>> What do you think about this proposal?
>
> who will provide the answers to non-trivial questions?
>
> For most packaging questions a list with plenty of DM/DD is sufficient 
> to get an answer.
>
> For the typical infrastructure project the number of people in Debian 
> who can answer non-trivial questions is in the low single-digits.

However the number of people who know who those people are is
considerably higher, which might well be part of the problem that makes
getting involved hard for newbies.

Also, if the same question comes up again, if it was asked via -mentors
the first time it might well be possible to refer the latest newbie to
the previous reply without needing to bother the limited resource.

>> Cheers
>>  jonas
>> 
>> [1] Let me give two examples for such "infrastructure projects":
>>     */ Many in Debian agree that Debbugs could need some love, but still
>>     it's developed and maintained largely by one brave soul.
>>...
>
> What will happen if a newbie starts asking questions about debbugs on 
> debian-mentors?
>
> Will the questions be ignored, or will you try to force this one brave 
> soul to become a mentor for whatever people from the internet start
> asking questions?

Are you coming up with hypothetical worst case scenarios because you
actually think something about this is a bad idea?  or because you do
not think the problem described exists?  or just because you think life
is a hopeless shuffle towards our inevitable oblivion and that any
glimmer of hope needs to be exposed as the delusion that it is?

Personally, I think this is a good idea.  At worst someone might get
told to talk the people that they'd eventually have worked out they
needed to talk to anyway.  Given pabs's enthusiastic response it seems
to have a good chance of achieving a much greater success than that.

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands  [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]  HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-|  http://www.hands.com/    http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(|  Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34,   21075 Hamburg,    GERMANY

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#10569

On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 02:56:53PM +0200, Philip Hands wrote:
> Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes:
> > On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 12:55:14PM +0200, Jonas Meurer wrote:
>...
> >> [1] Let me give two examples for such "infrastructure projects":
> >>     */ Many in Debian agree that Debbugs could need some love, but still
> >>     it's developed and maintained largely by one brave soul.
> >>...
> >
> > What will happen if a newbie starts asking questions about debbugs on 
> > debian-mentors?
> >
> > Will the questions be ignored, or will you try to force this one brave 
> > soul to become a mentor for whatever people from the internet start
> > asking questions?
> 
> Are you coming up with hypothetical worst case scenarios because you
> actually think something about this is a bad idea?  or because you do
> not think the problem described exists?  or just because you think life
> is a hopeless shuffle towards our inevitable oblivion and that any
> glimmer of hope needs to be exposed as the delusion that it is?
>...

Why are you assaulting me personally?

This was one of two examples provided by Jonas,
and I was questioning how it would work in practice.

If you disagree with me, there would have been civilized ways to do so.

The sun is shining and I'd rather go outside than wasting more time
on an abuser like you. An entry in my kill file will protect me from 
receiving further assaults.

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

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#10570 — Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects

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Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes:

> On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 02:56:53PM +0200, Philip Hands wrote:
>> Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes:
>> > On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 12:55:14PM +0200, Jonas Meurer wrote:
>>...
>> >> [1] Let me give two examples for such "infrastructure projects":
>> >>     */ Many in Debian agree that Debbugs could need some love, but still
>> >>     it's developed and maintained largely by one brave soul.
>> >>...
>> >
>> > What will happen if a newbie starts asking questions about debbugs on 
>> > debian-mentors?
>> >
>> > Will the questions be ignored, or will you try to force this one brave 
>> > soul to become a mentor for whatever people from the internet start
>> > asking questions?
>> 
>> Are you coming up with hypothetical worst case scenarios because you
>> actually think something about this is a bad idea?  or because you do
>> not think the problem described exists?  or just because you think life
>> is a hopeless shuffle towards our inevitable oblivion and that any
>> glimmer of hope needs to be exposed as the delusion that it is?
>>...
>
> Why are you assaulting me personally?

That was supposed to be humorous hyperbole, but clearly it missed its
mark, so I apologise.

> This was one of two examples provided by Jonas,
> and I was questioning how it would work in practice.

If you look at what I wrote, I asked you a series of questions to
discover why you were apparently being negative about the suggestion.

Having looked again at what you wrote, I see that you were also just
asking a series of questions.

Perhaps now that you've assumed that what I wrote was an assault you may
be able to better understand how your original series of negative
questions could be open to an abusive interpretation.

> If you disagree with me, there would have been civilized ways to do
> so.

I've no idea if I disagree with you, since you didn't actually say what
you think AFAICT, since you tell me that what you wrote were just some
questions.

> The sun is shining and I'd rather go outside than wasting more time
> on an abuser like you. An entry in my kill file will protect me from 
> receiving further assaults.

Well, I guess you won't see this then.  *sigh*

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands  [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]  HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-|  http://www.hands.com/    http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(|  Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34,   21075 Hamburg,    GERMANY

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#10573 — Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects

Adrian Bunk wrote:

> […]

I'm not sure whether this particular sub-thread is salvagable but I
thought I might briefly share the below in order that it might prevent
parallel cases elsewhere.

There exists a particular argument style where one participant in the
discussion asks a collection of essentially reasonable "devil's
advocate" questions to the group.

Whilst this can superfically appear to be an instance of the Socratic
method this can unfortunately be inadvertently and subconsciously
interpreted as passive-agressive.

This is due to the way it can mask provocative positions as "mere"
questions but it generally shifts the burden of proof and — as it
requires an asymmetric level of energy to "answer" the implied
viewpoints — it can make as others feel cornered, leading to a
defensive and ultimately unproductive discussion.

Naturally, if there was any perception that this tactic was deployed
deliberately this will only heighten any antagonism felt by the group.
Do note that that it is not necessarily the questions themselves that
are considered the problem but rather that the response is constructed
predominantly of them.

Personally, I have been over-indulgent in using such "devil's
advocate" positions in the past, but after some feedback I realised
that it did not have the intellectually stimulating quality I was
hoping for and merely distanced myself from whom I wished to convince.
After reducing my usage and spending moretime & effort adopting
alternative modes of argument I found my attempts to connect with and
ultimately persuade others to be far more effective.


Best wishes,

-- 
      ,''`.
     : :'  :     Chris Lamb
     `. `'`      lamby@debian.org 🍥 chris-lamb.co.uk
       `-

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#10574 — Alternatives to the Socratic Method

>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Lamb <lamby@debian.org> writes:

    Chris> Personally, I have been over-indulgent in using such "devil's
    Chris> advocate" positions in the past, but after some feedback I
    Chris> realised that it did not have the intellectually stimulating
    Chris> quality I was hoping for and merely distanced myself from
    Chris> whom I wished to convince.  After reducing my usage and
    Chris> spending moretime & effort adopting alternative modes of
    Chris> argument I found my attempts to connect with and ultimately
    Chris> persuade others to be far more effective.

I'd be really interested in the alternatives you're found helpful twhen
what you really have are a lot of questions.

When I find I have a strong emotional reaction to something I like to
try and step back and honestly learn about it.  For me that generally
involves a lot of questions.
But even through email I find that it is sometimes obvious while I'm
asking those questions that there are strong emotions under the surface.
Often by the time I get answers, the emotions are gone, and I approach
the answers and then develop a reasoned position.
So I'd love to learn what has worked for you when you do find that you
have a lot of questions about something.

--Sam

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#10579 — Re: Alternatives to the Socratic Method

Hi Sam,

>     Chris> Personally, I have been over-indulgent in using such "devil's
>     Chris> advocate" positions in the past but after some feedback I
>     Chris> realised that it did not have the intellectually stimulating
>     Chris> quality I was hoping for […]
> 
> I'd be really interested in the alternatives you're found helpful when
> what you really have are a lot of questions.

This appears to be a different category altogether and, alas, not one
I have insight into.

To elucidate, it was my understanding that the Socratic Method — at
least as the term is used today — refers to one interlocutor asking a
series of unfolding questions with the aim of leading another to reach
a particular point of view.

However, if one really does just have a collection of questions about
a topic then there is no desired outcome beyond seeking the answers
and furthermore no shepherding to a predestined position.

More salient to this thread however, is that in your scenario there is
no required element of taking an exaggerated-yet-plausible position
for iconoclastic effect which is what I was referring to in my quote
above. It was this particular rhethorical device I found to be an
obstacle to effective persuasion.

Just to clarify, I have no problem whatsoever with the Method, modulo
it often coming across as slightly pedantic or possibly pretentious
when used outside of a Dan Millman novel. Rather, I smart when a
series of «prima facie» questions are "just" asked in a potentially
passive-aggressive manner as detailed in a previous post.


Regards,

-- 
      ,''`.
     : :'  :     Chris Lamb
     `. `'`      lamby@debian.org 🍥 chris-lamb.co.uk
       `-

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#10580 — Re: Alternatives to the Socratic Method

"Chris Lamb" <lamby@debian.org> writes:

> To elucidate, it was my understanding that the Socratic Method — at
> least as the term is used today — refers to one interlocutor asking a
> series of unfolding questions with the aim of leading another to reach a
> particular point of view.

I think the thing that most often bothers me about the Socratic Method is
not the method itself, but instead is problems of consent around how it's
deployed.

Asking a series of unfolding questions can be a powerful teaching
technique, but the underlying assumption is that someone is teaching and
someone else is learning.  That, in turn, is a relationship that I think
should be consentual: the person who wants to learn should understand
that's what's going on and be actively agreeing to go through this
exercise in order to learn more.

If, instead, someone has a different opinion from someone else and wants
to persuade (which is not the same thing as teaching), but there's no
previously-agreed teaching relationship, diving into Socratic questioning
feels weirdly indirect and a bit presumptuous.  I'd rather just state my
objection or different opinion up-front with an open offer to explain how
I arrived at it.  Then the other person can choose to opt into a
(temporary) teaching relationship while I explain my thought process (if
it's complicated enough to warrant that much structure), and at that point
the Socratic Method may be great.

Usually when I find myself getting into that sort of Socratic dialogue, it
turns out that the other person already understood the first four or five
steps and going through the preliminaries was just sort of weird, and it
would have been better to just start at the end and back up only until we
find the point of disagreement.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)               <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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