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RFA: rtc.debian.org

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  RFA: rtc.debian.org Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-04-25 22:00 +0200
    Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> - 2019-04-30 17:20 +0200
      Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org "W. Martin Borgert" <debacle@debian.org> - 2019-04-30 18:40 +0200
        Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-04-30 19:50 +0200
          Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Luca Filipozzi <lfilipoz@debian.org> - 2019-04-30 20:40 +0200
        Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2019-05-01 04:20 +0200
          Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-01 10:10 +0200
        Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-01 10:20 +0200
        Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Elena ``of Valhalla'' <valhalla@debian.org> - 2019-05-01 14:10 +0200
      Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2019-05-12 01:00 +0200
        Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> - 2019-05-25 10:00 +0200
          Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-05-25 20:20 +0200
            Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> - 2019-05-25 23:20 +0200
    Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> - 2019-05-19 01:20 +0200
      Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-05-19 15:00 +0200
        Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> - 2019-05-19 15:50 +0200
          Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org "Andreas B. Mundt" <andi@debian.org> - 2019-05-19 21:00 +0200
            Re: RFA: rtc.debian.org Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> - 2019-05-24 17:30 +0200

#10441 — RFA: rtc.debian.org

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Hi.  During a discussion with DSA, we noticed that rtc.debian.org does
not have an active service team maintaining it.
In addition, the reciprocate package, on which it depends, was dropped
from buster.
I think the RC bugs in question have since been fixed but I didn't go
look at all the dependencies.

The default option is to discontinue the service.

First, it would be useful to hear from active users of the service.  At
one level, even if the service is actively used, it won't be continued
without maintainers.  However, understanding who would be hurt by this
would be valuable.

Secondly, if you would be willing to step up and maintain the service
please follow up.  You'd also need to be willing to maintain the
packages involved in coordination with the voip team.

Thanks,

--Sam

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#10447

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Quoting Sam Hartman (2019-04-25 21:51:30)
> Hi.  During a discussion with DSA, we noticed that rtc.debian.org does 
> not have an active service team maintaining it.
> In addition, the reciprocate package, on which it depends, was dropped 
> from buster.
> I think the RC bugs in question have since been fixed but I didn't go
> look at all the dependencies.
> 
> The default option is to discontinue the service.
> 
> First, it would be useful to hear from active users of the service.  
> At one level, even if the service is actively used, it won't be 
> continued without maintainers.  However, understanding who would be 
> hurt by this would be valuable.
> 
> Secondly, if you would be willing to step up and maintain the service 
> please follow up.  You'd also need to be willing to maintain the 
> packages involved in coordination with the voip team.

I have tried but failed at using the service.

I want it to continue (and want ot to work, obviously) and volunteer to 
administrate it!

Great if others would help: I suggest using debian-rtc@lists.debian.org 
(Cc'ed) to coordinate such team maintenance, but agree with Sam that we 
better continue this thread on debian-project@lists.debian.org only - 
email headers set accordingly.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#10448

Quoting Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk>:
> Great if others would help: I suggest using debian-rtc@lists.debian.org
> (Cc'ed) to coordinate such team maintenance, but agree with Sam that we
> better continue this thread on debian-project@lists.debian.org only -
> email headers set accordingly.

I'm one of the rather inactive people in respect to the Debian XMPP
server. My lack of activity is caused by the fact that I don't know
anything about the administration tools used by DSA. I'm only
starting to use Ansible in my company.

But I can definitively burn some time on the service and I have contact
to Prosody upstream and other people in the Jabber community to ask
for expert knowledge.

Urgent tasks: Activate mod_firewall to get rid most of the spam and
activate HTTP upload (probably needs per service user quota do prevent
accidental DoS).

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#10449

Is the xmpp server part of rtc.debian.org or another service?

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#10450

On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 01:47:25PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Is the xmpp server part of rtc.debian.org or another service?

Part of the same service.

-- 
Luca Filipozzi

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#10451

On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 12:30 AM W. Martin Borgert wrote:

> I'm one of the rather inactive people in respect to the Debian XMPP
> server. My lack of activity is caused by the fact that I don't know
> anything about the administration tools used by DSA. I'm only
> starting to use Ansible in my company.

DSA is using puppet, but probably we don't deploy any of the service
config using it, usually service admins take care of service config.

> Urgent tasks:

resiprocate (part of the SIP stuff on rtc.d.o) is missing from Debian
buster/sid.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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#10452

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[dropped all but d-devel list as recipient]

Quoting Paul Wise (2019-05-01 04:15:06)
> On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 12:30 AM W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> 
> > I'm one of the rather inactive people in respect to the Debian XMPP 
> > server. My lack of activity is caused by the fact that I don't know 
> > anything about the administration tools used by DSA. I'm only 
> > starting to use Ansible in my company.
> 
> DSA is using puppet, but probably we don't deploy any of the service 
> config using it, usually service admins take care of service config.
> 
> > Urgent tasks:
> 
> resiprocate (part of the SIP stuff on rtc.d.o) is missing from Debian 
> buster/sid.

Thanks for that detail.

Now properly filed in our BTS under pseudo-package "rtc.debian.org": 
https://bugs.debian.org/928285


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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#10453

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[ dropped all but d-devel list as recipient ]

Quoting W. Martin Borgert (2019-04-30 18:30:34)
> Quoting Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk>:
> > Great if others would help: I suggest using 
> > debian-rtc@lists.debian.org (Cc'ed) to coordinate such team 
> > maintenance, but agree with Sam that we better continue this thread 
> > on debian-project@lists.debian.org only - email headers set 
> > accordingly.
> 
> I'm one of the rather inactive people in respect to the Debian XMPP 
> server. My lack of activity is caused by the fact that I don't know 
> anything about the administration tools used by DSA. I'm only starting 
> to use Ansible in my company.
> 
> But I can definitively burn some time on the service and I have 
> contact to Prosody upstream and other people in the Jabber community 
> to ask for expert knowledge.

Great!

Does that mean you are new as me to the service, or are you already 
admin and can (if/when you find that sensible) grant me access too?

Otherwise - how to proceeed for taking over administration of this 
service?


[ snipped concrete tasks - prefer to discuss that at d-rtc@l.d.o ]


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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#10455

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I won't have time for it before june, but I'm interested in helping with
the XMPP part.

I don't have experience with the rtc part and I'm not using it either.

-- 
Elena ``of Valhalla''

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#10463

On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 05:13:10PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> I have tried but failed at using the service.

Same here.

Unfortunately, my experience with rtc.d.o have been less than stellar:

- The Jabber service is a spamtrap these days. When I contacted the
  maintainers about that, they suggested I install some client-side
  spamfilter. That seems wrong on so many counts...
- The SIP service was next to impossible to get to work with Asterisk,
  my SIP software of choice. When I contacted the maintainers of the
  service, they told me to not use Asterisk, which essentially means I
  would have to throw away all my phone hardware that I have working
  with asterisk, just so I could possibly communicate with my fellow
  Debian Developers.

> I want it to continue (and want ot to work, obviously) and volunteer to 
> administrate it!

I do agree that having a working RTC service is valuable. However, the
attitude of the (previous?) maintainers of this service was less than
helpful, IMO.

> Great if others would help:

Unfortunately, due to a recent change in my lifestyle, I don't think I
will have the time to help maintain this service...

-- 
To the thief who stole my anti-depressants: I hope you're happy

  -- seen somewhere on the Internet on a photo of a billboard

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#10496

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Hi Wouter,

Quoting Wouter Verhelst (2019-05-12 00:32:56)
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 05:13:10PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > I have tried but failed at using the service.
> 
> Same here.
> 
> Unfortunately, my experience with rtc.d.o have been less than stellar:
> 
> - The Jabber service is a spamtrap these days. When I contacted the
>   maintainers about that, they suggested I install some client-side
>   spamfilter. That seems wrong on so many counts...
> - The SIP service was next to impossible to get to work with Asterisk,
>   my SIP software of choice. When I contacted the maintainers of the
>   service, they told me to not use Asterisk, which essentially means I
>   would have to throw away all my phone hardware that I have working
>   with asterisk, just so I could possibly communicate with my fellow
>   Debian Developers.

Thanks for the feedback.

I also run Asterisk at a few small networks, and experienced similar 
failure connecting with rtc.d.o in the past - but I didn't try very hard 
back then.

I sincerely hope these renewed efforts can help improve the experience.

No doubt helps also that the protocols and implementations have since 
matured some.


> Unfortunately, due to a recent change in my lifestyle, I don't think I 
> will have the time to help maintain this service...

I wish you the best for your new lifestyle.  Really!

Again, thanks for your feedback,

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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#10500

>>>>> "Jonas" == Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> writes:


    Jonas> I also run Asterisk at a few small networks, and experienced
    Jonas> similar failure connecting with rtc.d.o in the past - but I
    Jonas> didn't try very hard back then.

    Jonas> I sincerely hope these renewed efforts can help improve the
    Jonas> experience.

    Jonas> No doubt helps also that the protocols and implementations
    Jonas> have since matured some.

I played around with asterisk and rtc in browsers.
The issue I ran into  was that libpjsip  had several compile-time
constants that produced buffers too small for some of the SIP messages
that webrtc uses.
When you're using audio, video, DTLS, and ICE, your sip messages kind of
get big.
I never tried with rtc.debian.org but I did get things working  with
chrome, firefox and asterisk.

Unfortunately, I think that increasing the compile-time constants may
break the pjsip API, which may be why Debian doesn't do it.

(It may have sense been done; this was a while ago)


Honestly I think an organized ABI breakage would be worth support for
webrtc that works with real browsers in asterisk.

If I weren't being DPL at the moment, I totally would have volunteered
for this myself.
I'd certainly be open to being roped into a couple hours helping at
debcamp or something.

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#10502

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Quoting Sam Hartman (2019-05-25 20:12:26)
> >>>>> "Jonas" == Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> writes:
> 
> Jonas> I also run Asterisk at a few small networks, and experienced
> Jonas> similar failure connecting with rtc.d.o in the past - but I
> Jonas> didn't try very hard back then.
> 
> Jonas> I sincerely hope these renewed efforts can help improve the
> Jonas> experience.
> 
> Jonas> No doubt helps also that the protocols and implementations
> Jonas> have since matured some.
> 
> I played around with asterisk and rtc in browsers.
> The issue I ran into was that libpjsip had several compile-time 
> constants that produced buffers too small for some of the SIP messages 
> that webrtc uses.
> When you're using audio, video, DTLS, and ICE, your sip messages kind 
> of get big.
> I never tried with rtc.debian.org but I did get things working with 
> chrome, firefox and asterisk.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think that increasing the compile-time constants may 
> break the pjsip API, which may be why Debian doesn't do it.
> 
> (It may have sense been done; this was a while ago)
> 
> 
> Honestly I think an organized ABI breakage would be worth support for 
> webrtc that works with real browsers in asterisk.
> 
> If I weren't being DPL at the moment, I totally would have volunteered 
> for this myself.
> I'd certainly be open to being roped into a couple hours helping at 
> debcamp or something.

You are most welcome to help, and it sounds like you got skills needed!

Others than me in the VoIP team far better understand pjsip and the fork 
embedded with Asterisk.  I got the impression that it is quite brittle. 
For my own use I many years ago, before pjsip was used, established an 
adequately working setup and have so far managed to keep that non-pjsip 
setup working in my production systems.

Would probably be quite interesting to share and compare configurations 
to identify strengths and weaknesses.  There are so many possibilities 
with Asterisk...

See you at debcamp!


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#10470

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Quoting Sam Hartman (2019-04-25 21:51:30)
> 
> Hi.  During a discussion with DSA, we noticed that rtc.debian.org does 
> not have an active service team maintaining it. In addition, the 
> reciprocate package, on which it depends, was dropped from buster. I 
> think the RC bugs in question have since been fixed but I didn't go 
> look at all the dependencies.
> 
> The default option is to discontinue the service.
> 
> First, it would be useful to hear from active users of the service.  
> At one level, even if the service is actively used, it won't be 
> continued without maintainers.  However, understanding who would be 
> hurt by this would be valuable.
> 
> Secondly, if you would be willing to step up and maintain the service 
> please follow up.  You'd also need to be willing to maintain the 
> packages involved in coordination with the voip team.

Apparently I am the only one volunteering for this.  While I do have 
some experience running WebRTC services outside of Debian, I have no 
experience interacting with DSA and I have failed at even figuring out 
how the current services are/were being run.

It is therefore unsustainable: I cannot do this alone!

Thanks for trying, Sam.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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#10471

Hi.
If I'm understanding you correctly, what you're saying is that you
believe this project is more than one person can handle and you're
giving two examples:

1) You don't know how to interact with DSA
and 2) you don't understand the current setup.

I suspect you're right that this is more than one person can handle.  If
that is what you're saying, then thanks for volunteering and for being
honest.

But you might be saying that if you had more experience working with DSA
and understood the current setup, then you could handle it.
If that's what you're saying I could try to get you help on those two
points.
My recommendation is that it's more than one person should take on, but
I want to make sure that I'm not misreading a request for specific help.

--Sam

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#10472

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Quoting Sam Hartman (2019-05-19 14:57:08)
> Hi.
> If I'm understanding you correctly, what you're saying is that you
> believe this project is more than one person can handle and you're
> giving two examples:
> 
> 1) You don't know how to interact with DSA
> and 2) you don't understand the current setup.
> 
> I suspect you're right that this is more than one person can handle.  If
> that is what you're saying, then thanks for volunteering and for being
> honest.
> 
> But you might be saying that if you had more experience working with DSA
> and understood the current setup, then you could handle it.
> If that's what you're saying I could try to get you help on those two
> points.
> My recommendation is that it's more than one person should take on, but
> I want to make sure that I'm not misreading a request for specific help.

Thanks for noticing and pointing out the ambiguity in my statement!

It is mostly the first: My lack of experience with DSA and current setup 
are concrete show stoppers, but I realized that even getting past those 
(e.g. by emailing DSA - they probably won't bite) I would not want to 
carry the responsibility alone.

If one more person steps up to help, then I won't mind taking the lead. 
And I might then take your offer to guide me. :-)


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#10473

Hi everybody,

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 03:44:33PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting Sam Hartman (2019-05-19 14:57:08)
> > Hi.
> > If I'm understanding you correctly, what you're saying is that you
> > believe this project is more than one person can handle and you're
> > giving two examples:
> > 
> > 1) You don't know how to interact with DSA
> > and 2) you don't understand the current setup.
> > 
> >[…]
> >
> > My recommendation is that it's more than one person should take on, but
> > I want to make sure that I'm not misreading a request for specific help.
> 
> Thanks for noticing and pointing out the ambiguity in my statement!
> 
> It is mostly the first: My lack of experience with DSA and current setup 
> are concrete show stoppers, but I realized that even getting past those 
> (e.g. by emailing DSA - they probably won't bite) I would not want to 
> carry the responsibility alone.
> 
> If one more person steps up to help, then I won't mind taking the lead. 
> And I might then take your offer to guide me. :-)

I am interested in helping maintaining the service, if that is
appreciated.  As I am moving to a new (work)place soon, I hesitate to
promise too much, but I think we should give it a try at least.  In
addition, others have shown interest in the service as well as in its
maintenance, so they might help as soon as something is started.  I've
run a private XMPP server for family and friends since some years now,
and I also set up the SIP stuff, but that never worked reliably so I
disabled the service when resiprocate became unmaintained and security
issues popped up. 

Best regards,

  Andi

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#10495

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Quoting Andreas B. Mundt (2019-05-19 20:27:31)
> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 03:44:33PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Quoting Sam Hartman (2019-05-19 14:57:08)
> > > If I'm understanding you correctly, what you're saying is that you 
> > > believe this project is more than one person can handle and you're 
> > > giving two examples:
> > > 
> > > 1) You don't know how to interact with DSA and 2) you don't 
> > > understand the current setup.
> > > 
> > >[…]
> > >
> > > My recommendation is that it's more than one person should take 
> > > on, but I want to make sure that I'm not misreading a request for 
> > > specific help.
> > 
> > Thanks for noticing and pointing out the ambiguity in my statement!
> > 
> > It is mostly the first: My lack of experience with DSA and current 
> > setup are concrete show stoppers, but I realized that even getting 
> > past those (e.g. by emailing DSA - they probably won't bite) I would 
> > not want to carry the responsibility alone.
> > 
> > If one more person steps up to help, then I won't mind taking the 
> > lead. And I might then take your offer to guide me. :-)
> 
> I am interested in helping maintaining the service, if that is 
> appreciated.  As I am moving to a new (work)place soon, I hesitate to 
> promise too much, but I think we should give it a try at least.  In 
> addition, others have shown interest in the service as well as in its 
> maintenance, so they might help as soon as something is started.  I've 
> run a private XMPP server for family and friends since some years now, 
> and I also set up the SIP stuff, but that never worked reliably so I 
> disabled the service when resiprocate became unmaintained and security 
> issues popped up.

Great.  That is appreciated indeed: Please (if not already) subscribe to 
the mailinglist https://lists.debian.org/debian-rtc/ and let's use that 
for further discussion.

I will try get in touch with DSA, and yell if I need your help, Sam :-)

Let's make RTC great again!


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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