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Listing of derivatives on the Debian website?

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  Listing of derivatives on the Debian website? Stéphane Blondon <stephane.blondon@gmail.com> - 2017-06-27 23:00 +0200
    Re: Listing of derivatives on the Debian website? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2017-06-28 07:20 +0200
    Re: Listing of derivatives on the Debian website? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2017-09-05 06:30 +0200
      Re: Listing of derivatives on the Debian website? Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2017-09-05 11:00 +0200
        Re: Listing of derivatives on the Debian website? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2017-09-06 04:10 +0200
          Re: Listing of derivatives on the Debian website? Laura Arjona Reina <larjona@debian.org> - 2017-09-11 13:10 +0200
            Re: Listing of derivatives on the Debian website? Stéphane Blondon <stephane.blondon@gmail.com> - 2017-09-19 22:50 +0200

#9291 — Listing of derivatives on the Debian website?

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Hello,

Currently, there is misc/children-distros page [0] listing a lot of
derivatives. The content originates in 1998 (in another file: [1]),
then the children-distros page appeared in 2002 [2].
The page becames longer and longer until today, without a clear strategy
about what the page should contain.

A new page /derivatives/ [3] explains the reasons for the creation
of a derivative, the relation between Debian and the derivative
distros, etc. A list of derivatives is available into the wiki [4] and
the derivatives can add their own project to it. The goal of the Census
is to get better
information from the derivative and help the relationship between Debian
and the derivatives.

When the /derivatives/ page is ready, it will replace the
misc/children-distros page.

In your opinion,
 - should we add list some derivatives in /derivatives/ page?
  - if yes, which criteria should be used to limit the list?
 - do you have other suggestions about the content of the page?


0: https://wwww.debian.org/misc/children-distros

1:
https://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/related_links.wml?r1=1.4&r2=1.5

2:
https://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/misc/children-distros.wml?revision=1.1&view=markup

3: https://www.debian.org/derivatives/

4: https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census

Regards,
Stéphane

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#9292

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 4:54 AM, Stéphane Blondon wrote:

>  - should we add list some derivatives in /derivatives/ page?

Yes, but only a limited selection.

>   - if yes, which criteria should be used to limit the list?

Initially I thought only list particularly important distros. In
particular, I would like to see Tails listed. Then I remembered the
related distro Whonix and considered instead adding different
audiences and listing the available derivatives for that audience. For
eg an item for security consultants could list Kali, Parrot Security
and Matriux.

I would prefer that any listed distros have taken the minimal step of
developing a relationship with Debian of becoming represented in the
derivatives census.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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#9494

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Stéphane Blondon wrote:

>  - should we add list some derivatives in /derivatives/ page?
>   - if yes, which criteria should be used to limit the list?

I discussed this a bit more with Stéphane Blondon offlist and we came
up with this proposal for the criteria and how to list derivatives.

We would welcome some feedback on these new criteria.

<h2 id="list">Which derivatives are available?</h2>

<p>
There are a number of distributions based on Debian listed in the
<a href="https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census">Debian Derivatives Census</a>
as well as in <a href="https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives#Lists">other places</a>.
</p>

<p>
In addition, we would like to highlight the following Debian derivatives:
</p>

## Some other structure (list/table/etc) would be fine too
<p>
  <img href="example-logo.png"/><a href="https://www.example.org/">Example</a>
  is aimed at being an example derivative.
  <a href="https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census/Example">More info</a>.
  Similar derivatives include
  <a href="https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census/Example2">Example2</a>;,
  # Insert more here
  </li>
</p>

# Insert more here

<p>
The derivatives highlighted above have each met most of these criteria:
</p>

<ul>
    <li>actively cooperate with Debian<li>
    <li>are actively maintained</li>
    <li>have a team of people involved, including at least one Debian member</li>
    <li>have joined the Debian derivatives census and included a sources.list in their census page</li>
    <li>have a distinguishing feature or focus</li>
    <li>are notable and established distributions</li>
</ul>

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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#9495

Hi,

On Tue, 05 Sep 2017, Paul Wise wrote:
> I discussed this a bit more with Stéphane Blondon offlist and we came
> up with this proposal for the criteria and how to list derivatives.
> 
> We would welcome some feedback on these new criteria.

I don't have anything to add. It looks good to me (and I believe Kali
would fit the requirements too).

Altough it's not necessarily trivial to evaluate your criteria:

>     <li>actively cooperate with Debian<li>

Hard to evaluate but can be assumed to be true when the distribution
files bugs (and when they user tag the bugs).

>     <li>are actively maintained</li>

- new releases?
- people responding to queries/bug reports?

>     <li>are notable and established distributions</li>

Not very specific either:
- notable? => how do you know popularity?
- established? => how old must the derivative be?

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Support Debian LTS: https://www.freexian.com/services/debian-lts.html
Learn to master Debian: https://debian-handbook.info/get/

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#9496

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On Tue, 2017-09-05 at 10:52 +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:

> Altough it's not necessarily trivial to evaluate your criteria:

We didn't want to give specific examples for many of them, since
different distros will have different ways of working.

> On Tue, 05 Sep 2017, Paul Wise wrote:
> >     <li>actively cooperate with Debian<li>
> 
> Hard to evaluate but can be assumed to be true when the distribution
> files bugs (and when they user tag the bugs).

Yep, this could take various other forms such as sponsoring DebConf,
maintaining packages in Debian, forwarding patches etc.

> >     <li>are actively maintained</li>
> 
> - new releases?

Some distros are rolling, "package updates happen" is fine for those.

> - people responding to queries/bug reports?

Seems reasonable.

> >     <li>are notable and established distributions</li>
> 
> Not very specific either:
> - notable? => how do you know popularity?

Notability and popularity can be different, for example Tails is
probably not as popular as Ubuntu but it is definitely notable.

I was thinking that having a Wikipedia page could demonstrate
notability, but we could also use our own judgement here.

> - established? => how old must the derivative be?

Maybe 1 or 2 years, at least it should be on distrowatch.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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#9504

Hello

El 06/09/17 a las 04:07, Paul Wise escribió:
> On Tue, 2017-09-05 at 10:52 +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> 
>> Altough it's not necessarily trivial to evaluate your criteria:
> 
> We didn't want to give specific examples for many of them, since
> different distros will have different ways of working.
> 
>> On Tue, 05 Sep 2017, Paul Wise wrote:
>>>     <li>actively cooperate with Debian<li>
>>
>> Hard to evaluate but can be assumed to be true when the distribution
>> files bugs (and when they user tag the bugs).
> 
> Yep, this could take various other forms such as sponsoring DebConf,
> maintaining packages in Debian, forwarding patches etc.
> 
>>>     <li>are actively maintained</li>
>>
>> - new releases?
> 
> Some distros are rolling, "package updates happen" is fine for those.
> 
>> - people responding to queries/bug reports?
> 
> Seems reasonable.
> 
>>>     <li>are notable and established distributions</li>
>>
>> Not very specific either:
>> - notable? => how do you know popularity?
> 
> Notability and popularity can be different, for example Tails is
> probably not as popular as Ubuntu but it is definitely notable.
> 
> I was thinking that having a Wikipedia page could demonstrate
> notability, but we could also use our own judgement here.
> 
>> - established? => how old must the derivative be?
> 
> Maybe 1 or 2 years, at least it should be on distrowatch.
> 


Thanks everybody involved in advancing this.

Looks good to me.

I would suggest to add a README txt file to the website repo, detailing
how to curate/update the list. That README file may list the
examples/details of the criteria that you already gave, or just link to
this mail thread in the web archives, so (new) people can know how to
update the list in the future.

Thanks!
-- 
Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona

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#9511

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Le 11/09/2017 à 13:01, Laura Arjona Reina a écrit :
> I would suggest to add a README txt file to the website repo, detailing
> how to curate/update the list. That README file may list the
> examples/details of the criteria that you already gave, or just link to
> this mail thread in the web archives, so (new) people can know how to
> update the list in the future.

We didn't included the examples in the html because we didn't want the
examples considered as the only way to fit the principles.
I think it's a good idea to provide the examples in a README and keep
the principles in the html.

The README file should be in english/derivatives/ directory, isn't it?

-- 
Stéphane

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