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Debian contributor Register of Interests

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  Debian contributor Register of Interests Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-05-09 11:00 +0200
    Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-05-09 14:10 +0200
      Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Luca Filipozzi <lfilipoz@debian.org> - 2017-05-09 17:10 +0200
      Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2017-05-10 02:10 +0200
        Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Julien Cristau <jcristau@debian.org> - 2017-05-10 09:50 +0200
          Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2017-05-10 18:00 +0200
            Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-05-10 18:50 +0200
            Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-05-10 21:30 +0200
              Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2017-05-11 02:40 +0200
        Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> - 2017-05-10 12:50 +0200
          Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-05-10 21:50 +0200
            Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Nikolaus Rath <Nikolaus@rath.org> - 2017-05-11 19:10 +0200
              Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-05-11 21:40 +0200
                Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2017-05-11 22:20 +0200
                  Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2017-05-12 01:20 +0200
                  Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-05-12 12:10 +0200
                Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Nikolaus Rath <Nikolaus@rath.org> - 2017-05-13 02:00 +0200
      Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-05-10 17:30 +0200
        Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-05-11 14:10 +0200
          Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2017-05-11 14:50 +0200
    Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <odyx@debian.org> - 2017-05-12 10:50 +0200
      Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-05-12 15:20 +0200
      Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2017-05-14 08:10 +0200
        Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2017-05-14 10:40 +0200
        Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <odyx@debian.org> - 2017-05-15 09:00 +0200
        Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-05-15 19:20 +0200
          Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2017-05-15 22:00 +0200
            Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-05-16 14:00 +0200
    Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2017-05-16 05:10 +0200
      Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-05-16 14:10 +0200

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#9206

Le mardi, 9 mai 2017, 09.16:21 h CEST Jonathan Dowland a écrit :
> However in the interests of transparency I feel that a voluntary, opt-in
> "Register of Interests" is a good idea for the project. I feel that such a
> list (populated) would demonstrate the transparency and openness that are
> part of our project's values.

I disagree that is is such a good idea, for a specific (and not yet mentionned) 
reason: conflicts of interest are _very_ much situational, _especially_ in the 
Debian context.

Assuming a hypothetical Debian contributor with financial interests in a hotel 
business, part-time software engineer and affiliated to a political party: not 
all three connections matter in all Debian work, or discussions. The first 
might matter though iff people start considering paying for accomodation in 
hir hotel; the second might matter in a discussion about a piece of software 
they are paid to work on, and the latter might matter when discussing the 
Debian project's eventual reaction to a complicate situation somewhere in the 
world. But these only matter in specific discussions, not constantly.

Where I'm going to is that I feel we're much better in a situation where we 
don't load all our conversations with references to _all_ our "real-life" 
interests. It opens the floodgates to interpret any position under the light of 
these interests, neglecting the mere idea that for plenty (if not all) of 
Debian interactions, we are genuinely acting as independent individuals.

That said, I still think that there are situations in which declaring one's 
conflicts of interest _does_ matter, but I do expect the affected individual to 
either explcitly retract (or stay away) from the discussion, or declare the 
conflict of interest at that point.

-- 
    OdyX

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#9208

Didier 'OdyX' Raboud writes ("Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests"):
> That said, I still think that there are situations in which declaring one's 
> conflicts of interest _does_ matter, but I do expect the affected individual to 
> either explcitly retract (or stay away) from the discussion, or declare the 
> conflict of interest at that point.

I try to always declare any conflict of interest I have (or may appear
to have) in a particular situation.  Where the interest is my
employer, I try to use my work email address (badness of email system
permitting).

Ian.

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#9210

]] Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 

> Assuming a hypothetical Debian contributor with financial interests in
> a hotel business, part-time software engineer and affiliated to a
> political party: not all three connections matter in all Debian work,
> or discussions. The first might matter though iff people start
> considering paying for accomodation in hir hotel; the second might
> matter in a discussion about a piece of software they are paid to work
> on, and the latter might matter when discussing the Debian project's
> eventual reaction to a complicate situation somewhere in the
> world. But these only matter in specific discussions, not constantly.

Indeed.  I also think there's a hang-up about financial conflicts of
interest in the discussion, but for at least me (and I suspect others),
money is a pretty weak motivator.  I generally have enough that it's
something I don't need to spend much mental energy on.  An example of
what I do think could cause conflicts of interest is where I'm part of
some community (free software or not) and my interest is in ensuring I
have a good standing or status in that community and this colours
judgements I make in Debian.  I object to collecting all that
information, though.  It would feel entirely too intrusive.

There's a question of what is a legitimate interest and what is not, and
this might be worth exploring, but I suspect it all comes down to «it
depends» and reasonableness tests.

> Where I'm going to is that I feel we're much better in a situation
> where we don't load all our conversations with references to _all_ our
> "real-life" interests. It opens the floodgates to interpret any
> position under the light of these interests, neglecting the mere idea
> that for plenty (if not all) of Debian interactions, we are genuinely
> acting as independent individuals.

I think «geniunely acting as independent individuals» is a meaningless
concept, since everything we do is coloured by the context we're in and
that includes social relations.

> That said, I still think that there are situations in which declaring
> one's conflicts of interest _does_ matter, but I do expect the
> affected individual to either explcitly retract (or stay away) from
> the discussion, or declare the conflict of interest at that point.

I agree with this, if you do see a possible and reasonable conflict of
interest, declare it and discuss it.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are

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#9211

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 08:08:09AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> Indeed.  I also think there's a hang-up about financial conflicts of
> interest in the discussion, but for at least me (and I suspect others),
> money is a pretty weak motivator.  I generally have enough that it's
> something I don't need to spend much mental energy on.  An example of
> what I do think could cause conflicts of interest is where I'm part of
> some community (free software or not) and my interest is in ensuring I
> have a good standing or status in that community and this colours
> judgements I make in Debian.  I object to collecting all that
> information, though.  It would feel entirely too intrusive.
> 
> There's a question of what is a legitimate interest and what is not, and
> this might be worth exploring, but I suspect it all comes down to «it
> depends» and reasonableness tests.
[...]
> I think «geniunely acting as independent individuals» is a meaningless
> concept, since everything we do is coloured by the context we're in and
> that includes social relations.

totally (=+1 on all quoted). Also, motivation and interests change.

So, I'm sorry, but IMO this wiki page is a waste of time with misleading
results.

That said, have fun anyway but don't be surprised if the page stays pretty
empty and gets outdated fast.


-- 
cheers,
	Holger

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#9212

Le dimanche, 14 mai 2017, 08.08:09 h CEST Tollef Fog Heen a écrit :
> I think «geniunely acting as independent individuals» is a meaningless
> concept, since everything we do is coloured by the context we're in and
> that includes social relations.

Oh, absolutely, my choice of words was wrong.

I am now who I am (and express what I do express in the way I do it) also 
because of what I did in life so far, and what I'm currently experiencing.

But what has influcenced, or does influence my way of thinking, should not be a 
preample to any new social interaction.

-- 
    OdyX

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#9213

Tollef Fog Heen writes ("Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests"):
> Indeed.  I also think there's a hang-up about financial conflicts of
> interest in the discussion, but for at least me (and I suspect others),
> money is a pretty weak motivator.  I generally have enough that it's
> something I don't need to spend much mental energy on.

That makes sense.

But these things can change.  If you don't have enough money then it
can be a very powerful motivator.  Worry about (say) losing one's job
can be pretty significant.  For me, being employed to work on free
software means an inevitable tension between the interests of my
employer, and my own views.  Indeed such difficulties contributed to
my need to depart from Canonical.

>From Debian's point of view: I think that anyone who takes prolonged
employment with an organisation which takes an active interest in
their Debian work, to the extent of taking an interest in what they
say about Debian and Free Software, ought to declare that.

Contracting is a bit different.  I wouldn't expect a contractor to
declare the names of all their clients.  OTOH if a client's scenario
motivated a particular software change, I would expect that to be
mentioned even if the name of the client is not.

The main reasons why money is different seem to me to be:

 * Money-related situations often involve significant power imbalances
   where the individual is subject to the opinions of a payer.

 * Money-related interactions are often kept secret.

>  An example of what I do think could cause conflicts of interest is
> where I'm part of some community (free software or not) and my
> interest is in ensuring I have a good standing or status in that
> community and this colours judgements I make in Debian.

Most of the communities like that I am part of, are either
sufficiently remote from software that they wouldn't care, or are
themselves technology projects.

In the latter case, most of the information is already public.  It
would be impractical and pointless to ask everyone to collate it.

I don't intend to declare my membership of political pressure groups
etc., unless I get appointed to lead one or made a political party's
election candidate, or something.  But those folks don't really have
an opinion about my Free Software work.

That I'm a GNU maintainer, upstream for various other programs, the
operator of chiark, and so on, is all public anyway.  A register of
interests ought not to be a list of everyone's software projects, nor
of all of their hobbies.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk>   These opinions are my own.

If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

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#9214

]] Ian Jackson 

> Tollef Fog Heen writes ("Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests"):
> > Indeed.  I also think there's a hang-up about financial conflicts of
> > interest in the discussion, but for at least me (and I suspect others),
> > money is a pretty weak motivator.  I generally have enough that it's
> > something I don't need to spend much mental energy on.
> 
> That makes sense.
> 
> But these things can change.  If you don't have enough money then it
> can be a very powerful motivator.  Worry about (say) losing one's job
> can be pretty significant.  For me, being employed to work on free
> software means an inevitable tension between the interests of my
> employer, and my own views.  Indeed such difficulties contributed to
> my need to depart from Canonical.

Absolutely, I'm not saying they can't be, just that they're not that
powerful motivators for everyone (and while I don't have data about it,
I know that IT generally pays ok to well, and the importance of money
goes down as you get more, so it's a reasonable conclusion).

> From Debian's point of view: I think that anyone who takes prolonged
> employment with an organisation which takes an active interest in
> their Debian work, to the extent of taking an interest in what they
> say about Debian and Free Software, ought to declare that.

My employer pays for me to go speak at Debconf.  I'm not sure if that
passes that bar or not.  (I've declared who they are in the context of
the CTTE, which I think is in a somewhat special situation when it comes
to being very clear about conflicts of interest.)

> >  An example of what I do think could cause conflicts of interest is
> > where I'm part of some community (free software or not) and my
> > interest is in ensuring I have a good standing or status in that
> > community and this colours judgements I make in Debian.
> 
> Most of the communities like that I am part of, are either
> sufficiently remote from software that they wouldn't care, or are
> themselves technology projects.
> 
> In the latter case, most of the information is already public.  It
> would be impractical and pointless to ask everyone to collate it.

Isn't that what the wiki page is about?  Else, you're saying I should
put nothing on there, since it's all public already.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are

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#9224

Tollef Fog Heen writes ("Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests"):
 Ian Jackson :
> > From Debian's point of view: I think that anyone who takes prolonged
> > employment with an organisation which takes an active interest in
> > their Debian work, to the extent of taking an interest in what they
> > say about Debian and Free Software, ought to declare that.
> 
> My employer pays for me to go speak at Debconf.  I'm not sure if that
> passes that bar or not.

Certainly it does.  There are things you might reasonably say in a
Debconf talk, or topics that you might choose, that many employers
would object to.

It may be that there are no things you might feel like saying that
you think your employer would actually object to.  But of course that
depends on your assessment of your relationship with your employer.
People outside that relationship aren't privy to the conversations you
have with your management.  And they may have a different view about
your employer's overall trustworthiness than you do.

> > >  An example of what I do think could cause conflicts of interest is
> > > where I'm part of some community (free software or not) and my
> > > interest is in ensuring I have a good standing or status in that
> > > community and this colours judgements I make in Debian.
> > 
> > Most of the communities like that I am part of, are either
> > sufficiently remote from software that they wouldn't care, or are
> > themselves technology projects.
> > 
> > In the latter case, most of the information is already public.  It
> > would be impractical and pointless to ask everyone to collate it.
> 
> Isn't that what the wiki page is about?  Else, you're saying I should
> put nothing on there, since it's all public already.

I think we are still exploring the question of scope in this thread.

As I said earlier, I think substantial financial interests, including
employment in particular, are special.  (They may also, in general,
not already be public for everyone.)

Ian.

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#9219

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> From time to time (usually during flamewars) the issue of potential conflicts
> of interests sometimes comes up in various places in our around our community.

Today while moderating screenshots.d.n I found what I consider to be a
conflict of interest. Someone uploaded a photograph of a screen
running a Debian package, with the logo of their employer printed on
the area surrounding the screen and the camera angled to include both
the screen and the logo. Since this was plainly advertising I've
rejected the screenshot. Subsequently I thought to search my mail for
this company and was surprised at the result. Consequently I contacted
the person I assume uploaded the screenshot and asked them to resubmit
without the logo.

I'm not sure if this register of interests helps or not but I hope the
Debian community will do better than the above in future.

Perhaps what we need is a a culture of awareness of our own personal
potential conflicts of interest and guidelines for disclosure (where
relevant) and examples of conduct that is not appropriate.

Personally, I disclose in the Sponsors section of my activity blog
posts which aspects of my involvement in FLOSS were influenced by
employers. I usually mention in bug reports when I've filed a bug
because of issues experienced by employers. I haven't mentioned
employers in commit logs or debian/changelog though.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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#9225

Paul Wise writes ("Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests"):
> Perhaps what we need is a a culture of awareness of our own personal
> potential conflicts of interest and guidelines for disclosure (where
> relevant) and examples of conduct that is not appropriate.

Yes.

> Personally, I disclose in the Sponsors section of my activity blog
> posts which aspects of my involvement in FLOSS were influenced by
> employers. I usually mention in bug reports when I've filed a bug
> because of issues experienced by employers. I haven't mentioned
> employers in commit logs or debian/changelog though.

I (usually[1]) use my work email address (eg, in signed-off-by) when I
make contributions which were driven by my employment.

Ian.

[1] Sometimes I fail to do so through oversight, or because I have to
work around busted work email systems.

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