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Renaming the Debian Project

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  Renaming the Debian Project benjamin barber <starworks5@gmail.com> - 2015-12-30 23:10 +0100
    Re: Renaming the Debian Project Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-12-30 23:20 +0100
    Re: Renaming the Debian Project Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2015-12-30 23:20 +0100
      Re: Renaming the Debian Project Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2015-12-31 00:00 +0100
        Re: Renaming the Debian Project Mike Hommey <mh@glandium.org> - 2015-12-31 01:30 +0100
    Re: Renaming the Debian Project Dimitri John Ledkov <dimitri.ledkov@surgut.co.uk> - 2015-12-30 23:50 +0100
      Re: Renaming the Debian Project Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-12-31 00:10 +0100
    Re: Renaming the Debian Project "Fuller, Lee" <lee.fuller@leesys.co.uk> - 2015-12-31 00:00 +0100
    Re: Renaming the Debian Project larocca@larocca.io - 2015-12-31 01:10 +0100
      Re: Renaming the Debian Project Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2015-12-31 02:10 +0100
    Re: Renaming the Debian Project Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2015-12-31 02:10 +0100
    Re: Renaming the Debian Project Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2015-12-31 05:00 +0100
      Re: Renaming the Debian Project Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-12-31 05:20 +0100
      Re: Renaming the Debian Project Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2015-12-31 08:50 +0100
        Re: Renaming the Debian Project Chris Knadle <Chris.Knadle@coredump.us> - 2016-01-06 05:50 +0100
          Re: Renaming the Debian Project Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2016-01-09 14:40 +0100
            Re: Renaming the Debian Project Chris Knadle <Chris.Knadle@coredump.us> - 2016-01-11 18:20 +0100
              Re: Renaming the Debian Project Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> - 2016-01-11 23:20 +0100
    Re: Renaming the Debian Project Jeff Garra <jgarra@aglilly.com> - 2015-12-31 05:10 +0100
      RE: Renaming the Debian Project Manuel <manchax@gmail.com> - 2015-12-31 05:40 +0100

#8388 — Renaming the Debian Project

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It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian, because having
the project named after a white supremacist, who used his ex-wifes name as
an trophy. Being that the current year is almost 2016 and is 20 years after
Debian started, we should look to the future and not the past. We shouldn't
tolerate the project being named after a person who uses the N word, or
marginalizes women who've been sexually assaulted. Instead I think we ought
to rename the project "Euphemia", which means "good speech" and represents
our code of conduct, as well as being the name of Euphemia Lofton Haynes
the first African American woman who earned a math PHD.

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#8389

benjamin barber <starworks5@gmail.com> writes:

> It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian

Nevertheless, that's the reason for the name: a historical fact that
will not change.

> because having the project named after a white supremacist, who used
> his ex-wifes name as an trophy.

You need to take your unsubstantiated hate elsewhere, and stop poisoning
this community.

-- 
 \                   己所不欲、勿施于人。 (What is undesirable to you, |
  `\                                             do not do to others.) |
_o__)                            —孔夫子 Confucius (551 BCE – 479 BCE) |
Ben Finney

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#8390

On 30/12/15 23:03, benjamin barber wrote:
> It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian, because
> having the project named after a white supremacist, who used his
> ex-wifes name as an trophy. Being that the current year is almost 2016
> and is 20 years after Debian started, we should look to the future and
> not the past. We shouldn't tolerate the project being named after a
> person who uses the N word, or marginalizes women who've been sexually
> assaulted. Instead I think we ought to rename the project "Euphemia",
> which means "good speech" and represents our code of conduct, as well as
> being the name of Euphemia Lofton Haynes the first African American
> woman who earned a math PHD.


a) leave out debian-devel, maybe continue on debian-project alone?

b) is Debra's opinion documented anywhere?

c) do you have verifiable references for the other allegations you are
making about the project founder?  It is very inappropriate to post
things like that without citing some solid evidence, doing so only
undermines your own credibility.

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#8392

Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> writes:

> c) do you have verifiable references for the other allegations you are
> making about the project founder?  It is very inappropriate to post
> things like that without citing some solid evidence, doing so only
> undermines your own credibility.

Given the timing of this message, it's a pretty obvious troll.  If there
were a legitimate point, it could have been made any other day other than
this day.  The only reason to choose today to post the original message is
to stir up shit.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)               <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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#8397

On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 02:40:33PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> writes:
> 
> > c) do you have verifiable references for the other allegations you are
> > making about the project founder?  It is very inappropriate to post
> > things like that without citing some solid evidence, doing so only
> > undermines your own credibility.
> 
> Given the timing of this message, it's a pretty obvious troll.  If there
> were a legitimate point, it could have been made any other day other than
> this day.  The only reason to choose today to post the original message is
> to stir up shit.

Or maybe it's just based on the last tweets from Ian, which are now
archived in many different places, and a bad interpretation (or rather,
a too literal one) of the tweet using the N word, or some of the very
last ones.

Mike

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#8391

Hello,

Your email is highly insensitive due to impeccable timing.

At the present moment Debian project mourns the passing of Ian
Murdock. https://bits.debian.org/2015/12/mourning-ian-murdock.html

A lot of Debian Developers and the wider Debian community have great
respect for the amazing things that happened, thanks to Ian starting
the Debian project.

Furthermore, his family has made an explicit call for privacy during
this difficult time for them, and we shall respect that. The email you
have sent violates that.

In Russian culture, one says good things about those who have passed
away, and remains silent about everything else.

-- 
Regards,

Dimitri.

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#8394

Dimitri John Ledkov <dimitri.ledkov@surgut.co.uk> writes:

> Your email is highly insensitive due to impeccable timing.

Given the complete lack of citation for any of the outlandish claims, I
suspect the timing and insensitivity of the original post was entirely
intentional.

-- 
 \      “Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not |
  `\     happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these |
_o__)                          defects.” —Mark Twain, _A Horse's Tale_ |
Ben Finney

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#8393

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On 2015-12-30 22:03, benjamin barber wrote: 

> It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian, because having the project named after a white supremacist, who used his ex-wifes name as an trophy. Being that the current year is almost 2016 and is 20 years after Debian started, we should look to the future and not the past. We shouldn't tolerate the project being named after a person who uses the N word, or marginalizes women who've been sexually assaulted. Instead I think we ought to rename the project "Euphemia", which means "good speech" and represents our code of conduct, as well as being the name of Euphemia Lofton Haynes the first African American woman who earned a math PHD.

This post is grossly inappropriate. Consider Ian's family before you
post such inaccurate, incoherently worded nonsense. 

-- 
-- LEE FULLER
 

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#8396

On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 02:03:40PM -0800, benjamin barber wrote:
> It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian, because having
> the project named after a white supremacist, who used his ex-wifes name as
> an trophy. Being that the current year is almost 2016 and is 20 years after
> Debian started, we should look to the future and not the past. We shouldn't
> tolerate the project being named after a person who uses the N word, or
> marginalizes women who've been sexually assaulted. Instead I think we ought
> to rename the project "Euphemia", which means "good speech" and represents
> our code of conduct, as well as being the name of Euphemia Lofton Haynes
> the first African American woman who earned a math PHD.

The neo-tribalist, pseudo-leftist, anti-materialist form of ideology that 
took shape during the famed '80s Culture Wars--"identity politics"--seems to 
have had a slight resurgence in the past few years. So much for those who 
take it up.

"First as tragedy, then as farce."

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#8399

larocca@larocca.io writes:
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 02:03:40PM -0800, benjamin barber wrote:

>> It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian, because
>> having the project named after a white supremacist, who used his
>> ex-wifes name as an trophy. Being that the current year is almost 2016
>> and is 20 years after Debian started, we should look to the future and
>> not the past. We shouldn't tolerate the project being named after a
>> person who uses the N word, or marginalizes women who've been sexually
>> assaulted. Instead I think we ought to rename the project "Euphemia",
>> which means "good speech" and represents our code of conduct, as well
>> as being the name of Euphemia Lofton Haynes the first African American
>> woman who earned a math PHD.

> The neo-tribalist, pseudo-leftist, anti-materialist form of ideology
> that took shape during the famed '80s Culture Wars--"identity
> politics"--seems to have had a slight resurgence in the past few
> years. So much for those who take it up.

> "First as tragedy, then as farce."

Speaking as someone who proudly supports something that you probably call
identity politics, the above was nothing of the sort.  It was pure
shit-stirring from someone who (generously) hadn't heard about subsequent
events after Ian's last public words or (much more likely) decided to use
them to try to spark exactly the sort of reaction that you're posting and
a subsquent big fight over it.

There will be plenty of time to argue about social justice, identity
politics, and so forth as it pertains to Debian.  It doesn't need to be
done based on this particular fodder, today.  Please have some respect for
the recently deceased, who gave a great deal to the broader community
and built some amazing things.

Thank you, Ian, for everything that you built for all of us.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)               <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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#8398

On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 02:03:40PM -0800, benjamin barber wrote:
> It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian, because having the
> project named after a white supremacist, who used his ex-wifes name as an
> trophy. Being that the current year is almost 2016 and is 20 years after Debian
> started, we should look to the future and not the past. We shouldn't tolerate
> the project being named after a person who uses the N word, or marginalizes
> women who've been sexually assaulted. Instead I think we ought to rename the
> project "Euphemia", which means "good speech" and represents our code of
> conduct, as well as being the name of Euphemia Lofton Haynes the first African
> American woman who earned a math PHD.

Please, do *not* feed this troll. Ian deserves better.

-- 
It is easy to love a country that is famous for chocolate and beer

  -- Barack Obama, speaking in Brussels, Belgium, 2014-03-26

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#8400

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On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 02:03:40PM -0800, benjamin barber wrote:
> It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian, because having
> the project named after a white supremacist, who used his ex-wifes name as
> an trophy.

I agree in whole with the responses of my fellow developers Dimitri and
Russ.  I also believe, because the Internet never forgets, that this
libelous accusation needs to be addressed directly.

In the time leading up to Ian's death, he posted on his now-deleted twitter
account about an altercation with police.  He described being the victim of
police brutality, and expressed the desire that his story be widely known -
in the hopes that, where stories of police brutality (up to and including
murder) of racial minorities in the United States have failed to lead to the
systemic reforms that are needed, perhaps a story of a white, affluent,
educated, middle-aged man being a victim of the same systems might tip the
scale.

In the course of expressing these views on twitter, Ian used a racial
epithet.

It appears to be this one word that has led to him being branded here as a
"white supremacist".

It is not racism to call attention to racial bias inherent in systems of
unequal power.

It is not white supremacy to use a taboo word for its shock value when
discussing violations of civil rights that should be shocking to all,
regardless of the color of the victim.

One can certainly disagree with his methods, but there is no cause for
accusing Ian of "white supremacy" when all the evidence suggests he desired
to see civil rights abuses corrected for the good of all.  His memory
deserves better than this.

-- 
Steve Langasek                   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer                                    http://www.debian.org/
slangasek@ubuntu.com                                     vorlon@debian.org

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#8402

Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> writes:

> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 02:03:40PM -0800, benjamin barber wrote:
> > It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian, because having
> > the project named after a white supremacist, who used his ex-wifes name as
> > an trophy.
>
> I agree in whole with the responses of my fellow developers Dimitri and
> Russ.  I also believe, because the Internet never forgets, that this
> libelous accusation needs to be addressed directly.

Thanks for responding to libel with information.

> In the time leading up to Ian's death, he posted on his now-deleted
> twitter account about an altercation with police.

To be clear, there is reasonable doubt those posts were made by him
<URL:http://news.softpedia.com/news/founder-of-debian-threatens-suicide-on-twitter-and-police-abuse-allegedly-498205.shtml>,
since they aren't consonant with his previous postings, and are quite
close to the time of his death.

If, as seems plausible, it turns out those posts were not made by Ian
Murdock, the libelous accusations that started this thread will lack all
substance in fact.

-- 
 \          “A hundred times every day I remind myself that […] I must |
  `\       exert myself in order to give in the same measure as I have |
_o__)                received and am still receiving” —Albert Einstein |
Ben Finney

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#8404

On 31/12/15 04:22, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 02:03:40PM -0800, benjamin barber wrote:
>> It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian,
>> because having the project named after a white supremacist, who
>> used his ex-wifes name as an trophy.
> 
> I agree in whole with the responses of my fellow developers Dimitri
> and Russ.  I also believe, because the Internet never forgets, that
> this libelous accusation needs to be addressed directly.
> 
> In the time leading up to Ian's death, he posted on his now-deleted
> twitter account about an altercation with police.  He described
> being the victim of police brutality, and expressed the desire that
> his story be widely known - in the hopes that, where stories of
> police brutality (up to and including murder) of racial minorities
> in the United States have failed to lead to the systemic reforms
> that are needed, perhaps a story of a white, affluent, educated,
> middle-aged man being a victim of the same systems might tip the 
> scale.
> 
> In the course of expressing these views on twitter, Ian used a
> racial epithet.
> 

In fact, it has not been verified that those Tweets were from Ian
himself.  It can only be said that there were Tweets and they appear
to originate from Ian's Twitter ID.

Had somebody hacked his account?

Had somebody stolen his mobile phone and hacked the screen unlock?
Has the phone been found yet?

Has somebody found an arbitrary way to send Tweets with forged identities?

Did Ian rename or close his Twitter account at some point and then
somebody else created a new Twitter account using the same name?

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#8409

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Daniel Pocock:
> 
> 
> On 31/12/15 04:22, Steve Langasek wrote:
>> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 02:03:40PM -0800, benjamin barber wrote:
>>> It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian,
>>> because having the project named after a white supremacist, who
>>> used his ex-wifes name as an trophy.
>>
>> I agree in whole with the responses of my fellow developers Dimitri
>> and Russ.  I also believe, because the Internet never forgets, that
>> this libelous accusation needs to be addressed directly.
>>
>> In the time leading up to Ian's death, he posted on his now-deleted
>> twitter account about an altercation with police.  He described
>> being the victim of police brutality, and expressed the desire that
>> his story be widely known - in the hopes that, where stories of
>> police brutality (up to and including murder) of racial minorities
>> in the United States have failed to lead to the systemic reforms
>> that are needed, perhaps a story of a white, affluent, educated,
>> middle-aged man being a victim of the same systems might tip the 
>> scale.
>>
>> In the course of expressing these views on twitter, Ian used a
>> racial epithet.
>>
> 
> In fact, it has not been verified that those Tweets were from Ian
> himself.  It can only be said that there were Tweets and they appear
> to originate from Ian's Twitter ID.
> 
> Had somebody hacked his account?

I believe the Tweets that have been posted are really from Ian.  The basis
of my belief is a story at The Register which quotes the facts as stated by
the San Francisco Police Department in the last few paragraphs:

   http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/12/30/ian_murdock_debian_founder/

When combined with Ian's Tweets the story told sounds harsh: two scuffles
with SF police leading to a medic dispatched on-site each time plus one
hospital visit, and it's clear Ian thought the response was extreme and that
he felt abused both physically and mentally/emotionally by the police.

There aren't many people I can think of who wouldn't have some strong words
to say after /that/ happened to them.  This isn't a time to take derogatory
words said out-of-context and leap to judge the character of the person that
said it -- rather it's a time to use one's empathy to try to understand what
he went through to make sense of what he said about it.

And concerning "the N word" specifically (I'm addressing this directly here
because that's what I think started this thread), there's a comedy routine
by Chris Rock in which he describes the rare kinds of situations in which he
thinks yelling such a thing "by a white guy" would be fitting.

   https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Chris_Rock#Kill_the_Messenger_.282008.29

Search that link for "Toys 'R' Us" and you'll see the quote.  I'll let that
speak for itself.

On another angle of the story, Ian asked the police if they were wearing
body cameras and the answer was "No".  Unfortunately that's not an error:
there's an ongoing debate about this because the policy used by the LAPD and
SFPD for body cameras would specifically allow officers to review video
before release -- in short if used as the policy last stated, they'd only
help to convict suspects and would not help transparency.

   https://www.eff.org/files/2015/10/21/eff-sfprc-bodycams.pdf

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/09/eff-urges-department-justice-not-fund-lapds-body-cameras

There was supposed to be a decision on this on Dec 2nd, but I haven't yet
heard what the decision was or whether the policy covering body camera use
remained the same as before.


http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2015/12/starchild-sfpd-body-cameras-devils-in-the-details/

http://www.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2015/12/02/decision-on-sfpd-body-cameras-due-tonight

I'm really saddened by Ian's passing for a lot of reasons.  Because of what
he last said in his Tweets I thought it was important to point these issues
out.  Just in case it's not 100% clear, I'm doing this with the intent of
fully respecting Ian and what I believe his last wishes were.

Thanks for reading.

   -- Chris

-- 
Chris Knadle
Chris.Knadle@coredump.us

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#8414

On 06/01/16 05:19, Chris Knadle wrote:
> Daniel Pocock:
>>
>>
>> On 31/12/15 04:22, Steve Langasek wrote:
>>> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 02:03:40PM -0800, benjamin barber wrote:
>>>> It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian,
>>>> because having the project named after a white supremacist, who
>>>> used his ex-wifes name as an trophy.
>>>
>>> I agree in whole with the responses of my fellow developers Dimitri
>>> and Russ.  I also believe, because the Internet never forgets, that
>>> this libelous accusation needs to be addressed directly.
>>>
>>> In the time leading up to Ian's death, he posted on his now-deleted
>>> twitter account about an altercation with police.  He described
>>> being the victim of police brutality, and expressed the desire that
>>> his story be widely known - in the hopes that, where stories of
>>> police brutality (up to and including murder) of racial minorities
>>> in the United States have failed to lead to the systemic reforms
>>> that are needed, perhaps a story of a white, affluent, educated,
>>> middle-aged man being a victim of the same systems might tip the 
>>> scale.
>>>
>>> In the course of expressing these views on twitter, Ian used a
>>> racial epithet.
>>>
>>
>> In fact, it has not been verified that those Tweets were from Ian
>> himself.  It can only be said that there were Tweets and they appear
>> to originate from Ian's Twitter ID.
>>
>> Had somebody hacked his account?
> 
> I believe the Tweets that have been posted are really from Ian.  The basis
> of my belief is a story at The Register which quotes the facts as stated by
> the San Francisco Police Department in the last few paragraphs:
> 
>    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/12/30/ian_murdock_debian_founder/

There is a general consensus not to keep picking through the details on
the mailing list.  I only posted those questions about the matter to
emphasize the lack of information - none of the material anybody has
provided can answer those questions conclusively with hard evidence so
there is nowhere for this thread to go.  Please don't feel I am
encouraging people to seek out answers, I only posted the questions to
highlight the lack of facts in the original troll mail, we just have to
sit back and wait and see if they are answered from a credible source.

The PR statements are not a credible source, only an official report
from an inquiry has any weight.  PR statements are not made under oath
like evidence in court or an affidavit.

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#8416

Daniel Pocock:
> 
> 
> On 06/01/16 05:19, Chris Knadle wrote:
>> Daniel Pocock:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 31/12/15 04:22, Steve Langasek wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 02:03:40PM -0800, benjamin barber wrote:
>>>>> It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian,
>>>>> because having the project named after a white supremacist, who
>>>>> used his ex-wifes name as an trophy.
>>>>
>>>> I agree in whole with the responses of my fellow developers Dimitri
>>>> and Russ.  I also believe, because the Internet never forgets, that
>>>> this libelous accusation needs to be addressed directly.
>>>>
>>>> In the time leading up to Ian's death, he posted on his now-deleted
>>>> twitter account about an altercation with police.  He described
>>>> being the victim of police brutality, and expressed the desire that
>>>> his story be widely known - in the hopes that, where stories of
>>>> police brutality (up to and including murder) of racial minorities
>>>> in the United States have failed to lead to the systemic reforms
>>>> that are needed, perhaps a story of a white, affluent, educated,
>>>> middle-aged man being a victim of the same systems might tip the 
>>>> scale.
>>>>
>>>> In the course of expressing these views on twitter, Ian used a
>>>> racial epithet.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In fact, it has not been verified that those Tweets were from Ian
>>> himself.  It can only be said that there were Tweets and they appear
>>> to originate from Ian's Twitter ID.
>>>
>>> Had somebody hacked his account?
>>
>> I believe the Tweets that have been posted are really from Ian.  The basis
>> of my belief is a story at The Register which quotes the facts as stated by
>> the San Francisco Police Department in the last few paragraphs:
>>
>>    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/12/30/ian_murdock_debian_founder/
> 
> There is a general consensus not to keep picking through the details on
> the mailing list.  I only posted those questions about the matter to
> emphasize the lack of information - none of the material anybody has
> provided can answer those questions conclusively with hard evidence so
> there is nowhere for this thread to go.  Please don't feel I am
> encouraging people to seek out answers, I only posted the questions to
> highlight the lack of facts in the original troll mail, we just have to
> sit back and wait and see if they are answered from a credible source.
> 
> The PR statements are not a credible source, only an official report
> from an inquiry has any weight.  PR statements are not made under oath
> like evidence in court or an affidavit.

No, it's not PR statements.  Police departments have an officer assigned to
state the facts known when the media calls them... which they do regularly
to find out about new events that have happened.  I don't see why you'd need
the police department or the media author to be under oath to accept what
they state, especially being that in this case what's stated correlates with
what Ian seems to have said himself.

Being that there's not likely to be a court case, nobody is going to be
under oath and so if we went by the "rules" you've laid out above, there
would never be anything what you call "credible" to discuss, and therefore
all this message does is to try to hush others politically, and I object to
that.

Other than these objections I don't have anything further to say about this
right now, though.

   -- Chris

-- 
Chris Knadle
Chris.Knadle@coredump.us

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#8417

On 11/01/16 17:54, Chris Knadle wrote:
> Daniel Pocock:
>>
>>
>> On 06/01/16 05:19, Chris Knadle wrote:
>>> Daniel Pocock:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 31/12/15 04:22, Steve Langasek wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 02:03:40PM -0800, benjamin barber wrote:
>>>>>> It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian,
>>>>>> because having the project named after a white supremacist, who
>>>>>> used his ex-wifes name as an trophy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree in whole with the responses of my fellow developers Dimitri
>>>>> and Russ.  I also believe, because the Internet never forgets, that
>>>>> this libelous accusation needs to be addressed directly.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the time leading up to Ian's death, he posted on his now-deleted
>>>>> twitter account about an altercation with police.  He described
>>>>> being the victim of police brutality, and expressed the desire that
>>>>> his story be widely known - in the hopes that, where stories of
>>>>> police brutality (up to and including murder) of racial minorities
>>>>> in the United States have failed to lead to the systemic reforms
>>>>> that are needed, perhaps a story of a white, affluent, educated,
>>>>> middle-aged man being a victim of the same systems might tip the 
>>>>> scale.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the course of expressing these views on twitter, Ian used a
>>>>> racial epithet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In fact, it has not been verified that those Tweets were from Ian
>>>> himself.  It can only be said that there were Tweets and they appear
>>>> to originate from Ian's Twitter ID.
>>>>
>>>> Had somebody hacked his account?
>>>
>>> I believe the Tweets that have been posted are really from Ian.  The basis
>>> of my belief is a story at The Register which quotes the facts as stated by
>>> the San Francisco Police Department in the last few paragraphs:
>>>
>>>    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/12/30/ian_murdock_debian_founder/
>>
>> There is a general consensus not to keep picking through the details on
>> the mailing list.  I only posted those questions about the matter to
>> emphasize the lack of information - none of the material anybody has
>> provided can answer those questions conclusively with hard evidence so
>> there is nowhere for this thread to go.  Please don't feel I am
>> encouraging people to seek out answers, I only posted the questions to
>> highlight the lack of facts in the original troll mail, we just have to
>> sit back and wait and see if they are answered from a credible source.
>>
>> The PR statements are not a credible source, only an official report
>> from an inquiry has any weight.  PR statements are not made under oath
>> like evidence in court or an affidavit.
> 
> No, it's not PR statements.  Police departments have an officer assigned to

The police officer has a twitter page, it looks like her responsibility
is PR:

https://twitter.com/officergrace

When I say PR is "not a credible source", I don't mean that in a
disparaging way, I'm just saying it is not an official report.

> state the facts known when the media calls them... which they do regularly
> to find out about new events that have happened.  I don't see why you'd need
> the police department or the media author to be under oath to accept what
> they state, especially being that in this case what's stated correlates with
> what Ian seems to have said himself.
> 

Haven't you ever seen an interrogation in the movies where they lie to a
suspect and tell him that his brother has just signed a confession?
They do that in real life, it is not just the movies.  I'm not trying to
disparage them for it, just to point out that it is part of how they do
their job.  It can be the same with PR.  Then they go to court and take
an oath like anybody else and tell the truth as best as any human being can.

> Being that there's not likely to be a court case, nobody is going to be
> under oath and so if we went by the "rules" you've laid out above, there
> would never be anything what you call "credible" to discuss, and therefore
> all this message does is to try to hush others politically, and I object to
> that.
>

Court case: no, people who are deceased generally can't go on trial

In some situations there could be an inquest, in a court room, where
people give evidence under oath:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquest
but such a procedure is not prosecuting Ian or the police or anybody
else, it is just to establish the facts.  This can happen after an
industrial accident, for example, to identify better safety procedures
and avoid future loss of life.

It is not about hushing people politically, it is just out of respect
for his family and others who know Ian personally.  A long thread with a
many opinions about the tweets would not be helpful at this time.

Regards,

Daniel

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#8401

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"Being that the current year is almost 2016 and is 20 years after Debian
started"

Yes, let's rename a project because of an arbitrary date. That makes
perfect sense. No it doesn't, that is absurd.

"because having the project named after a white supremacist"

Those are some pretty serious accusations you are making. You have any
proof to back up those claims? Further, your tactics of shaming someone
based on their beliefs, while potentially gross beliefs, is still pretty
insulting and petty.

I wish the name to stay as-is. If people want to create a project with a
different name they are welcome to fork, at the core that is the essence of
Debian and its licenses.

On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 2:03 PM, benjamin barber <starworks5@gmail.com>
wrote:

> It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian, because having
> the project named after a white supremacist, who used his ex-wifes name as
> an trophy. Being that the current year is almost 2016 and is 20 years after
> Debian started, we should look to the future and not the past. We shouldn't
> tolerate the project being named after a person who uses the N word, or
> marginalizes women who've been sexually assaulted. Instead I think we ought
> to rename the project "Euphemia", which means "good speech" and represents
> our code of conduct, as well as being the name of Euphemia Lofton Haynes
> the first African American woman who earned a math PHD.
>

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#8403

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IMHO: Two words for those proposing it: attention whores


From: Jeff Garra
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 10:00 PM
To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
Cc: debian-project@lists.debian.org; debian-devel@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Renaming the Debian Project

"Being that the current year is almost 2016 and is 20 years after Debian started"

Yes, let's rename a project because of an arbitrary date. That makes perfect sense. No it doesn't, that is absurd.

"because having the project named after a white supremacist"

Those are some pretty serious accusations you are making. You have any proof to back up those claims? Further, your tactics of shaming someone based on their beliefs, while potentially gross beliefs, is still pretty insulting and petty.

I wish the name to stay as-is. If people want to create a project with a different name they are welcome to fork, at the core that is the essence of Debian and its licenses.

On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 2:03 PM, benjamin barber <starworks5@gmail.com> wrote:
It's unfortunate that Debian is named after Debra and Ian, because having the project named after a white supremacist, who used his ex-wifes name as an trophy. Being that the current year is almost 2016 and is 20 years after Debian started, we should look to the future and not the past. We shouldn't tolerate the project being named after a person who uses the N word, or marginalizes women who've been sexually assaulted. Instead I think we ought to rename the project "Euphemia", which means "good speech" and represents our code of conduct, as well as being the name of Euphemia Lofton Haynes the first African American woman who earned a math PHD.

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