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Re: Survey on Bug Tracking Tools

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  Re: Survey on Bug Tracking Tools Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> - 2015-06-08 20:50 +0200
    Re: Survey on Bug Tracking Tools Dominik George <nik@naturalnet.de> - 2015-06-08 21:00 +0200
      Re: Survey on Bug Tracking Tools Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2015-06-16 19:30 +0200
      Re: What it means to be Debian Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> - 2015-06-16 19:30 +0200
        Re: What it means to be Debian Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2015-06-16 22:00 +0200
      Re: What it means to be Debian Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2015-06-16 19:50 +0200
      Re: What it means to be Debian Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2015-06-16 20:50 +0200
        Re: What it means to be Debian Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2015-06-16 22:10 +0200
        Re: What it means to be Debian Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2015-06-16 22:30 +0200

#8154 — Re: Survey on Bug Tracking Tools

* Dominik George:

> However, I (for one) am not so comfortable with your proceedings.
>
>  1. Your e-mail doesn't even carry a real name (and originates at
>     Google Mail, in combination making it look a lot like spam).
>     Why not send it from a university address with a readable name,
>     making it look like it was send by an academic?
>
>  2. The data has to be entered in Google Docs / Google Forms. Excuse
>     me, but weren't you saying you are reaching out to Free Software
>     projects?

Google services are quite popular among the FLOSS crowd at large.
You might not see many Gmail posters on Debian mailing lists, but
this is increasingly an anomaly.


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#8155

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On 08.06.2015 20:46, Florian Weimer wrote:
> Google services are quite popular among the FLOSS crowd at large.
> You might not see many Gmail posters on Debian mailing lists, but
> this is increasingly an anomaly.

Which is, at best, a serious illness.

-nik

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#8163

Dominik George <nik@naturalnet.de> writes:

>  If any Debian contributor BELIEVES that the use of Google, and the
>  like, is a good thing, then the illness lies in the divergence between
>  their contribution and their values, and in that case, I honestly do
>  NOT respect that and consider it harmful.

Please note that there are a lot of shades of feeling about Google between
"use of Google is a good thing" and "I will never use Google because they
are evil."  The world is full of compromises.  Sometimes unethical
companies or poor products are nonetheless the best immediate tool to get
some other job done, either for some greater good or, practical necessity
being what it is, making money to put food on the table and put a roof
over one's head.

Being this absolute can often be just a way of beating up on people who
already have it worse than you do.  You have the luxury of making
idealistic but sometimes impractical choices.  More power to you!  That's
a great way of driving some things forward.  But not everyone has that
luxury, and they can still can provide very positive contributions to the
project.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)               <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


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#8164 — Re: What it means to be Debian

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On Tue, 2015-06-16 at 18:27 +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 02:46:45PM +0200, Dominik George wrote:
> > Mostly, I *personally* do not find those people authentic enough to
> > uphold any such community standard. It's somewhat like donating to a
> > species conservation organisation, taking the money from a purse made of
> > crocodile skin. It's quite impossible to take it seriously.
> Debian isn't advertised as a distribution whose main goal is to provide
> 100% free something while not providing anything non-free,
[...]

Yeah it's such a minor goal that it's the first point of the Social
Contract.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
Beware of bugs in the above code;
I have only proved it correct, not tried it. - Donald Knuth

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#8167 — Re: What it means to be Debian

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On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 06:24:09PM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> > > Mostly, I *personally* do not find those people authentic enough to
> > > uphold any such community standard. It's somewhat like donating to a
> > > species conservation organisation, taking the money from a purse made of
> > > crocodile skin. It's quite impossible to take it seriously.
> > Debian isn't advertised as a distribution whose main goal is to provide
> > 100% free something while not providing anything non-free,
> [...]
> 
> Yeah it's such a minor goal that it's the first point of the Social
> Contract.
I'll quote it:

"We will support people who create or use both free and non-free works on
Debian."

That is not the same as what I wrote but what I meant was we don't say
things like "our community must actively reject the non-free counterparts"
or "we will not distribute, recommend, or otherwise support non-free
software", as some other distributions do.

-- 
WBR, wRAR

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#8165 — Re: What it means to be Debian

Dominik George writes ("Re: What it means to be Debian"):
> I strongly support that. I also do *not* think that everyone who uses
> non-free services or the like should leave Debian or is neitrely bad for
> the community.
> 
> Mostly, I *personally* do not find those people authentic enough to
> uphold any such community standard. It's somewhat like donating to a
> species conservation organisation, taking the money from a purse made of
> crocodile skin. It's quite impossible to take it seriously.

I find it difficult to express my disagreement with the your views,
and your attitude, with the respect that is due to a fellow
contributor.  But I will try.


Firstly, I need to say that I am a firm believer in the need for free
(libre) services, not just in free software development, but
generally.  I try to use free services whenever possible; I have made
contributions to free services of various kinds; and my own code is
often AGPL-licenced.

However, there are situations where it can be difficult or impossible
to achieve one's goals without compromise.  Then we get into questions
of tradeoffs.

The tradeoffs are sometimes purely practical: is this service likely
to lose my data / sell me down the river / annoy me beyond reason ?
The tradeoffs are also often ethical: is my use of this service going
to make it harder for other people not to use it ?  Am I contributing
to the service's financial health or social legitimacy ?

So I'm not saying that it is never right to criticise someone else's
use of a non-free service.  But it goes far too far to say that anyone
who ever uses a non-free service is beyond the pale.  (Do you yourself
not use non-free web search engines ?)

Furthermore, while software freedom is the (or at least the main)
purpose of Debian, there are more important things in life and in the
world than software freedom.  I'm sure you can think of several.


On a practical level, an absolutist attitude like the one you are
demonstrating is fatal to any campaign which aims to change the world.

To change the world, we need allies and supporters.  That necessarily
includes many people who don't agree with everything we stand for, and
many people whose priorities are different to ours.

We must be able to make common cause to work constructively with
people in the areas where we agree with them.  That means treating
them respectfully and avoiding unnecessary attacks on them about the
areas where we do not agree.


Concretely, this means, for example:

If someone is using Gmail to write to us, we should refrain from
derailing their attempts to contribute with what they will see as a
side issue.  Raising that as an issue during the initial contact from
someone new to our community and our aims is neither effective, nor
respectful.

If someone suggests that we as should adopt some kind of proprietary
service, or invites us to share our data in a way we don't like, we
explain politely (with reference perhaps to Mako's excellent article)
why we will decline.

In no case should we describe contributors or genuine enquirers as
`inauthentic', `unable to uphold our community standards', or having a
`serious illness' because they disagree with us.


Thanks,
Ian.

PS: I completely agree with what Sam Hartman has written in this
thread.


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#8166 — Re: What it means to be Debian

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On 06/16/2015 03:27 PM, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> Debian isn't advertised as a distribution whose main goal is to
> provide 100% free something while not providing anything non-free,
> I think there are other projects with such advertising. So I think
> that such strong metaphors can't be applied to Debian.
> 

Except it is by our Social Contract.

Regarding that I think we should point people that reach this
community (especially if they want input from us) towards things we
work on: so to say we have **free** services as alternatives to *that*
google services and we use and stand by them. Said that, I do not
think that we should call "illness" if someone uses non-free services
(especially as a tool to contact for the first time our community) as
that is not helping our cause and people don't need to know about free
services. Would it be good and moral to know and use free software -
yes, is it necessary for someones "normal" life - no. The "illness"
part Dominik proposed is not constructive in a same way we would say
you can't get driver license because you don't know how car works so
you are ill.

On the other hand - I do believe that Debian contributors should
uphold Social Contract and DFSG as much as possible because if we
don't push it forward and believe in it, then no one else will.

At the end of the day, it matters what persons we are and not what
tools do we use. I totally love and support Mako's POV for using free
tools to create free software - but that should be duty of us who a
bond to this community and create those tools and not to average user
because AFAIK you don't need to know how and who produced organic food
to buy one (everyone can find countless examples on this thought).

Be polite, give your best on everything but also understand that not
everyone has neither will have freedom to use/do something without
making their life more difficult for not (in their eyes) too much
personal gain.

Just my 2c,

zlatan
- -- 
It's not the COST, it's the VALUE
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#8168 — Re: What it means to be Debian

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On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 08:45:15PM +0200, Zlatan Todoric wrote:
> > Debian isn't advertised as a distribution whose main goal is to
> > provide 100% free something while not providing anything non-free,
> > I think there are other projects with such advertising. So I think
> > that such strong metaphors can't be applied to Debian.
> Except it is by our Social Contract.
See my other email.

> Regarding that I think we should point people that reach this
> community (especially if they want input from us) towards things we
> work on: so to say we have **free** services as alternatives to *that*
> google services and we use and stand by them. 
For most services you can't say "we".

> On the other hand - I do believe that Debian contributors should
> uphold Social Contract and DFSG as much as possible because if we
> don't push it forward and believe in it, then no one else will.
SC says "Debian will remain 100% free". What do you mean by upholding that
and pushing that forward? Saying something else in place of "Debian"?
That's mostly not constructive.

> because AFAIK you don't need to know how and who produced organic food
> to buy one (everyone can find countless examples on this thought).
Thanks for that metaphor, "organic food" has some nice similarities to
"100% free distribution".

> Be polite, give your best on everything but also understand that not
> everyone has neither will have freedom to use/do something without
> making their life more difficult for not (in their eyes) too much
> personal gain.
That's true.

-- 
WBR, wRAR

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#8169 — Re: What it means to be Debian

>>>>> "Zlatan" == Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> writes:

    Zlatan> On the other hand - I do believe that Debian contributors
    Zlatan> should uphold Social Contract and DFSG as much as possible
    Zlatan> because if we don't push it forward and believe in it, then
    Zlatan> no one else will.

I agree with the above.
However no where in the social contract do we commit to using only free
tools for our work.  I can use Outlook to read my Debian mail.  I can
use IE to interact with db.debian.org if I like.
I can send mail to the BTS from Apple mail.app or from the gmail
website.
I choose to do none of those things, but will vigorously defend others'
right to do so.

we also don't clearly indicate that we believe Debian should use free
tools and services for project infrastructure.  You can argue that is
implied by "the system require the use of a non-free component," but I
don't think that's very clear.

I do think it's important that it be possible to buildand work on Debian
using entirely free tools, and I think it is important that the Debian
Project use free tools for its infrastructure and prefer/require
services that are free software.  I think we tend to do that.  I think
several of our key teams do that as policy.  I don't think we've made a
level of commitment like the social contract to do that.
In general I would support making such a commitment to the community,
but it would require careful wording and it would require looking at
whether we need any exceptions where there are real gaps.  

As an example, I ssuspect a lot of the services where we have hardware
hosted use proprietary service management software.  I suspect the
registrars and registries where we register our DNS domains use
proprietary services.


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