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Re: Technical objection to KDE double-click default in Debian 13 - Request for corrective action before release

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  Re: Technical objection to KDE double-click default in Debian 13 -  Request for corrective action before release Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-07-23 11:50 +0200
    Re: Technical objection to KDE double-click default in Debian 13 -  Request for corrective action before release Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2025-07-23 12:40 +0200
      Re: Technical objection to KDE double-click default in Debian 13 -  Request for corrective action before release Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-07-23 12:50 +0200
    Re: Technical objection to KDE double-click default in Debian 13 -  Request for corrective action before release <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2025-07-23 12:50 +0200
      Re: Technical objection to KDE double-click default in Debian 13 -  Request for corrective action before release Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2025-07-24 02:50 +0200
        Re: Technical objection to KDE double-click default in Debian 13 -  Request for corrective action before release Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2025-07-24 09:40 +0200
        Re: Technical objection to KDE double-click default in Debian 13 -  Request for corrective action before release tomas@tuxteam.de - 2025-07-24 10:10 +0200
        Re: Technical objection to KDE double-click default in Debian 13 -  Request for corrective action before release Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2025-07-24 10:30 +0200
      Re: Technical objection to KDE double-click default in Debian 13 - Request  for corrective action before release Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-07-23 19:30 +0200

#13885 — Re: Technical objection to KDE double-click default in Debian 13 - Request for corrective action before release

Hi,

I have noticed that the Cc list is missing the Pope, the President, the 
Chancellor, the Chairperson of the Central Committee, Udo Lindenberg, 
Neil Armstrong and Jay Leno. The Person who has chosen this Cc list 
obviously wants an Audience. We should not give them that.

That being said,

On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 11:01:36AM +0200, Lucy wrote:
>With the upcoming release of Debian 13 "Trixie", I want to formally 
>raise a critical technical objection to one of the adopted upstream 
>changes that risks undermining the efficiency,
>consistency, and user trust that Debian has long upheld:
>
>KDE Plasma 6's decision to enforce double-click as the default 
>behavior for file interaction.

I find it the right thing to follow Upstream's Decisions, ensuring 
consistent behavior of KDE on different distributions.

Can we close this discussion please.

Greetings
Marc


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber         | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header
Leimen, Germany    |  lose things."    Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
Nordisch by Nature |  How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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#13887

Hello,

Lucy, you are piling rhetoric over rhetoric, that won't make a fruitful
discussion.

Lucy, le mer. 23 juil. 2025 12:01:59 +0200, a ecrit:
> Debian has never just been “a Linux distro.” It has always stood for
> deliberation, control, and the ability to resist upstream when needed.

That's not what the social contract says. It says “Our priorities are
our users and free software”. What is best for our users? Stay with a
default that nobody else uses, and thus surprise our users, even making
them make mistakes? Or provide a default that suits most people, while
*making sure to keep* the way to change it as *some* people prefer.

Another example was mentioned on IRC: focus-follows-mouse. Various
people are using it, for efficiency reasons (I am among them, I can't
see myself work another way). But it won't even come to our mind to
propose this as a default, because that would surprise a *lot* of our
users.

Yes, the switching decision of KDE is a tough one. But as explained by
Aurélien, following it or not *was* discussed in Debian, and the
conclusion was to follow. Sorry that you dislike it, but you're very
welcome to set a kdeglobals snippet in your home, and be done with the
whole question.

Samuel

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#13888

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On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 12:36:58PM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>Lucy, you are piling rhetoric over rhetoric, that won't make a fruitful
>discussion.

ChatGPT-written polemic emails aren't intended to make a fruitful 
discussion. I would be glad if at least people on Debian lists recognized 
such content and didn't try engaging with it :-/

-- 
WBR, wRAR

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#13889

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On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 11:41:20AM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have noticed that the Cc list is missing the Pope, the President, the
> Chancellor, the Chairperson of the Central Committee, Udo Lindenberg, Neil
> Armstrong and Jay Leno. The Person who has chosen this Cc list obviously
> wants an Audience. We should not give them that.

This is incredibly witty, but really: was it necessary?

I understand that the original post is not easy to deal with
(as in most discussions about defaults), but reacting with such
sarcasm and vitriol, while perhaps at some level rewarding,
in the end poisons the whole thing for us all.

Cheers
-- 
t

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#13893

On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 6:42 AM tomas wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 11:41:20AM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have noticed that the Cc list is missing the Pope, the President, the
> > Chancellor, the Chairperson of the Central Committee, Udo Lindenberg, Neil
> > Armstrong and Jay Leno. The Person who has chosen this Cc list obviously
> > wants an Audience. We should not give them that.
>
> This is incredibly witty,

I thought it was a bit obnoxious.

> but really: was it necessary?

if you want to dismiss the OPs' concerns out of hand without
addressing them.. yeah, probably it was necessary.

> I understand that the original post is not easy to deal with

Really?  If you're not going to do anything about their concerns a bit
of empathy
   .. yes, if you're a long-term user and you've become accustomed to
<whatever default behavior> this is a breaking change
followed with
  .. You can <do something hopefully trivially simple & easy> to get
the old behavior

should be enough.

> (as in most discussions about defaults), but reacting with such
> sarcasm and vitriol, while perhaps at some level rewarding,
> in the end poisons the whole thing for us all.

+1

Lee

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#13895

Lucy, le jeu. 24 juil. 2025 09:16:12 +0200, a ecrit:
> @Samuel: Ah yes, "ChatGPT-written polemic."

Your AI is not even able to grasp who said what.

Discussion can only stop here.

Samuel

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#13896

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On Thu, Jul 24, 2025 at 09:16:12AM +0200, Lucy wrote:
> 
> What a fascinating display of community dynamics.

[...]

@Lucy: please don't take my disagreement with Marc's tone as
an endorsement of yours. Not by a far stretch.

While I could have interpreted your first post as a genuine
sign of distress (everyone is distressed when their favourite
defaults go away -- and I'm a gullible person), this second
post of yours lets me think you are firmly in troll territory.

I'm out of this.

Cheers
-- 
t

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#13897

Hello,

To people who may wonder why it's so obvious that AI was at the very
least used to "improve" the writing, it already merely comes from the
vocabulary being used:

Lucy, le jeu. 24 juil. 2025 09:16:12 +0200, a ecrit:
> How delightfully ironic

> Your theatrical performance

> you've weaponized incompetence

Nobody uses such vocabulary.

As shown in a paper published in Science Advances (preprint available on
https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.07016 ), and noted by Nature in 
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-02097-6 :

“
They searched abstracts for ‘excess words’ that started to appear
more often than expected after November 2022, when ChatGPT became widely
available.
[...]
The researchers found that 454 words appeared much more often in 2024
than in any other year since 2010.
”

While using AI to improve text is not necessarily a problem (it could
help communication), here it's only used to try to make the mail more
persuasive, just piling rhetoric. Which is not what we need for Debian.

To make sure to fulfill our users' needs we need convincing mails, not
persuasive mails.

Samuel

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#13892 — Re: Technical objection to KDE double-click default in Debian 13 - Request for corrective action before release

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On Wednesday, July 23, 2025 2:41:20 AM Mountain Standard Time Marc Haber 
wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 11:01:36AM +0200, Lucy wrote:
> >With the upcoming release of Debian 13 "Trixie", I want to formally
> >raise a critical technical objection to one of the adopted upstream
> >changes that risks undermining the efficiency,
> >consistency, and user trust that Debian has long upheld:
> >
> >KDE Plasma 6's decision to enforce double-click as the default
> >behavior for file interaction.
> 
> I find it the right thing to follow Upstream's Decisions, ensuring
> consistent behavior of KDE on different distributions.

To further what Marc said, I think that upstream made the correct decision in 
this case.  I consider double-click to be the setting desired and expected by 
the majority of users.  For the minority of users who prefer something 
different, it is easy for them to change it.

Perhaps we could have a different discussion if the default that upstream had 
selected was not in the best interest of the majority of users.  But in this 
case, I think upstream’s decision was correct and not modifying the upstream 
behavior in Debian is also correct.

-- 
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org

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