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Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o

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  Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2022-03-22 22:10 +0100
    Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 01:00 +0100
      Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Martina Ferrari <tina@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 19:20 +0100
        Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-03-24 00:30 +0100
    Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 08:30 +0100
      Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Ingo Jürgensmann <ij@2022.bluespice.org> - 2022-03-23 09:10 +0100
        Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 10:10 +0100
          Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 14:00 +0100
          Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Ingo Jürgensmann <ij@2022.bluespice.org> - 2022-03-23 14:00 +0100
            Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2022-04-08 12:50 +0200
          Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Tiago Bortoletto Vaz <tiago@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 14:20 +0100
      Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2022-03-23 09:10 +0100
        Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2022-03-23 10:00 +0100
          Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Ingo Jürgensmann <ij@2022.bluespice.org> - 2022-03-23 12:40 +0100
            Re: Is Debian sending people away? Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 14:40 +0100
              Re: Is Debian sending people away? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 15:10 +0100
            Is Debian sending people away? Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 15:10 +0100
              Re: Is Debian sending people away? Diederik de Haas <didi.debian@cknow.org> - 2022-03-23 17:20 +0100
      Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2022-03-23 14:00 +0100
        Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 15:40 +0100
          Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 17:30 +0100
            Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 18:10 +0100
      Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2022-03-23 15:00 +0100
        Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 16:10 +0100
          Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 16:20 +0100
          Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Ulrike Uhlig <u@451f.org> - 2022-03-23 17:20 +0100
            Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2022-03-23 17:30 +0100
          Re: Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2022-03-24 10:20 +0100
        Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 16:20 +0100
        Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 21:30 +0100
        Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2022-03-23 21:40 +0100
          Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Christian Kastner <ckk@debian.org> - 2022-03-23 23:30 +0100
            Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-03-24 00:50 +0100
          Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-03-24 02:10 +0100
    Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2022-03-23 08:30 +0100

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#12687 — Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o

Hi,

In his latest post, Norbert wrote:

"most of my activity around Debian has come to a complete halt (Send 
your thanks to da-manager@debian.org!)"

I find it not acceptable because it's written as if da-manager are the 
only persons responsible for it. He of course didn't mention that he 
appealed, and that a vast majority rejected his appeal. Once more, 
Norbert fails to recognize his own mistakes, and blame the others, 
namely the account managers.

I don't want to read more of such [censored], as obviously, he will 
continue if we let him.

Can we delete him from planet?

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

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#12688

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Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> wrote on 22/03/2022 at 21:01:27+0100:

> Hi,
>
> In his latest post, Norbert wrote:
>
> "most of my activity around Debian has come to a complete halt (Send
> your thanks to da-manager@debian.org!)"
>
> I find it not acceptable because it's written as if da-manager are the
> only persons responsible for it. He of course didn't mention that he 
> appealed, and that a vast majority rejected his appeal. Once more,
> Norbert fails to recognize his own mistakes, and blame the others, 
> namely the account managers.
>
> I don't want to read more of such [censored], as obviously, he will
> continue if we let him.
>
> Can we delete him from planet?

Meh. If you want to do so, be my guest, but I fear this would be seen a
bit badly compared to the "gain" you expect from it.

-- 
PEB

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#12719

On 22/03/2022 23:37, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
 >> Can we delete him from planet?
 >
 > Meh. If you want to do so, be my guest, but I fear this would be seen a
 > bit badly compared to the "gain" you expect from it.

I saw this message yesterday, and left me thinking how nobody seems too 
concerned with how Preining's actions have impacted and continue to 
impact members of this project.

Not only he has sustained a campaign against me and other people, he 
seems to enjoy "naming and shaming" me to the point where last week I 
found myself with a (thankfully small) amount of hatemail in my inbox, 
because my name was again in Slashdot's front page, thanks to an 
"interview"[1] that "journalist" Sam Varghese did with him.

This is a very common tactic you see every day on Twitter and other 
social media: publicly naming targets in a deniable way, so their 
followers start a pile-on until the victim breaks. This is the kind of 
tactics he is still using, and that the usual regressive crowd keep 
defending in this thread.

These are the kind of things I viscerally reacted against a while ago. 
Reactions that caused official bodies of the project to formally 
reprimand me (just months after the same people had pushed me out of the 
CT for being too radical or something).

It is funny (not) to see the person I called an asshole back then -for 
stating publicly that he chooses to intentionally misgender transgender 
people- is still having opinions in this thread. It is all very polite, 
of course; after all, nobody really cares about the people who get hurt.

Debian keeps showing for anybody to see that as long as you keep your 
tone down, you will be allowed to bully, harass, and generally make 
others miserable; that nobody cares enough to stop it.


[1]: 
https://itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/debian-developer-demoted,-quits-after-two-decades-with-project.html

-- 
Martina Ferrari (Tina)

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#12724

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Martina Ferrari <tina@debian.org> wrote on 23/03/2022 at 19:01:02+0100:

> On 22/03/2022 23:37, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>>> Can we delete him from planet?
>>
>> Meh. If you want to do so, be my guest, but I fear this would be seen a
>> bit badly compared to the "gain" you expect from it.
>
> I saw this message yesterday, and left me thinking how nobody seems
> too concerned with how Preining's actions have impacted and continue
> to impact members of this project.

Right now I'm wondering where you deduced the amount of concern I would
have regarding Norbert's actions and their impact.

-- 
PEB

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#12689

Hi Thomas

On 2022/03/22 22:01, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> In his latest post, Norbert wrote:
> 
> "most of my activity around Debian has come to a complete halt (Send 
> your thanks to da-manager@debian.org!)"
> 
> I find it not acceptable because it's written as if da-manager are the 
> only persons responsible for it. He of course didn't mention that he 
> appealed, and that a vast majority rejected his appeal. Once more, 
> Norbert fails to recognize his own mistakes, and blame the others, 
> namely the account managers.
> 
> I don't want to read more of such [censored], as obviously, he will 
> continue if we let him.

I agree that his posts aren't appropriate for planet (I didn't pay close 
attention but noticed at least one post recently where he blames 
politics for not being part of Debian anymore). And I think blaming DAM 
when they only did their job on planet is quite horrible too.

> Can we delete him from planet?

Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!

-Jonathan

  	

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#12691

Am 23.03.2022 um 07:38 schrieb Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org>:

> On 2022/03/22 22:01, Thomas Goirand wrote:
>> In his latest post, Norbert wrote:
>> "most of my activity around Debian has come to a complete halt (Send your thanks to da-manager@debian.org!)"
>> I find it not acceptable because it's written as if da-manager are the only persons responsible for it. He of course didn't mention that he appealed, and that a vast majority rejected his appeal. Once more, Norbert fails to recognize his own mistakes, and blame the others, namely the account managers.
>> I don't want to read more of such [censored], as obviously, he will continue if we let him.
> 
> I agree that his posts aren't appropriate for planet (I didn't pay close attention but noticed at least one post recently where he blames politics for not being part of Debian anymore). And I think blaming DAM when they only did their job on planet is quite horrible too.
> 
>> Can we delete him from planet?
> 
> Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!

So, are we now at a point where we ban people just because of some silly remarks in their posts and dislikes from single other persons?

I would have thought that Debian could and should do better. 

I’m disappointed. 


Disclaimer: I’m not on the side of Norbert nor against him, but the whole story is awful. 
-- 
Ciao...          //    Web: http://blog.windfluechter.net
      Ingo     \X/     XMPP/Jabber:       ij@jhookipa.net
	
gpg pubkey:  http://www.juergensmann.de/ij_public_key.asc

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#12695

On 2022/03/23 09:37, Ingo Jürgensmann wrote:
> So, are we now at a point where we ban people just because of some silly remarks in their posts and dislikes from single other persons?

No, but I don't want people to keep feeling dread and wonder what he's 
going to say every time he blogs, and he's not being constructive, he 
hasn't been for a while, and this is by no means just about his last 
remarks, but about patterns of behaviour that he has had no interest in 
changing.

If you wish to still follow his blog for some reason, you can still 
subscribe directly, but at this point it doesn't belong on Planet Debian.

-Jonathan

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#12697

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* Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> [2022-03-23 10:25]:
>On 2022/03/23 09:37, Ingo Jürgensmann wrote:
>>So, are we now at a point where we ban people just because of some silly remarks in their posts and dislikes from single other persons?
>
>No, but I don't want people to keep feeling dread and wonder what he's 
>going to say every time he blogs, and he's not being constructive, he 
>hasn't been for a while, and this is by no means just about his last 
>remarks, but about patterns of behaviour that he has had no interest 
>in changing.

This.

If you go on accusing members of the project to be running some
sort of dictatorship, don't be surprised if they run out of patience
with you eventually and will no longer afford you with the benefit
of the doubt. You get out what you put in.

And please stop framing a limited action against a particular
individual with a known bad faith history as some
sort of "new normal" that will hit anybody without warning. It
isn't. It won't.

You may disagree with the action, as Martin does. To be honest, I'm
also on the fence with this one. There, I said it. Still, I'm not
afraid of retaliation by Jonathan or DAM. You know why? Because I'm
not painting them as some sort of detestable Evil that will be the
downfall of Debian. Once you stop assuming good faith, your own
behavior *will* change accordingly, and the sad thing is, most
people don't even realize that and just see the other side reacting
and feel vindicated that they were Right All Along. It's a
self-fulfilling prophecy.

For a different example, look at Felix. Yes, he's quirky. He makes
mistakes. I find myself disagreeing with him on quite a few
technical and philosophical issues. But he exemplifies the good
Debian citizen who does not just want to *be* right and make
everyone else admit they were wrong. He tries to *do* right by
everyone else, actively looking for solutions instead of lamenting
the unfairness of it all. For that, he has my respect. Norbert has
my pity.

Leaving the soapbox now.


Cheers
Timo

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀   ╭────────────────────────────────────────────────────╮
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁   │ Timo Röhling                                       │
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀   │ 9B03 EBB9 8300 DF97 C2B1  23BF CC8C 6BDD 1403 F4CA │
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀   ╰────────────────────────────────────────────────────╯

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#12698

Sorry, the first mail was accidently sent direct to Jonathan. my mistake. 

Am 23.03.2022 um 09:25 schrieb Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org>:

> On 2022/03/23 09:37, Ingo Jürgensmann wrote:
>> So, are we now at a point where we ban people just because of some silly remarks in their posts and dislikes from single other persons?
> 
> No, but I don't want people to keep feeling dread and wonder what he's going to say every time he blogs, and he's not being constructive, he hasn't been for a while, and this is by no means just about his last remarks, but about patterns of behaviour that he has had no interest in changing.
> 
> If you wish to still follow his blog for some reason, you can still subscribe directly, but at this point it doesn't belong on Planet Debian.

My concern is not that I can’t read his blog anymore on planet.d.o (honestly, never read him), but how this issue has been addressed. As others already wrote: it shouldn’t be left to a single DD to decide whether or not to remove someone else from planet.d.o., but it should be left to the team to decide. 

Being a DPL doesn’t imply that you can act like you did in this case. Alas, I can understand that you might be annoyed by Norberts postings and argue that those are not „constructive“. But that doesn’t mean that this is valid for all readers of planet.d.o. 

What’s the point anyway? The complain was about this: 

> "most of my activity around Debian has come to a complete halt (Send your thanks to da-manager@debian.org!)“

Which rules are violated by this statement - except it might be received to be annoying for some people to read anything by Norbert? But being annoyed shouldn’t be a reason to ban anyone. 
There is this old Fidonet rule: 
• Don't be excessively annoying.
• Don't be easily annoyed.

Even when the statement by Norbert was annoying to others. I don’t think that this is excessibly annoying behaviour. But then again: it’s your own task to not be easily annoyed. 

IMHO, you overreacted in a rush. This can happen and is just human. But you should also have courage to admit this and revert your change and pass the decision to the planet.d.o. team. 

-- 
Ciao...          //    Web: http://blog.windfluechter.net
     Ingo     \X/     XMPP/Jabber:       ij@jhookipa.net
	
gpg pubkey:  http://www.juergensmann.de/ij_public_key.asc





-- 
Ciao...          //    Web: http://blog.windfluechter.net
      Ingo     \X/     XMPP/Jabber:       ij@jhookipa.net
	
gpg pubkey:  http://www.juergensmann.de/ij_public_key.asc

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#12765

On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 12:02:03PM +0100, Ingo Jürgensmann wrote:
>My concern is not that I can’t read his blog anymore on planet.d.o
>(honestly, never read him), but how this issue has been addressed. As
>others already wrote: it shouldn’t be left to a single DD to decide
>whether or not to remove someone else from planet.d.o., but it should
>be left to the team to decide.

Which team? Have you asked them if they are prepared to be burdened with
doing this? Or have they made a statement that they accept this remit?

>Being a DPL doesn’t imply that you can act like you did in this case.

Jonathan (C) made it very clear that he took that action as a regular
DD, not as DPL.

I'm still quite confused by your objection here. If Jonathan (C) had
added himself to whichever team you think should have been responsible
first, would that have been ok?

Or, do you think there should be a formally delegated responsibility to
do this?

-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#12700

On 2022-03-23 4:25 a.m., Jonathan Carter wrote:
> On 2022/03/23 09:37, Ingo Jürgensmann wrote:
>> So, are we now at a point where we ban people just because of some
>> silly remarks in their posts and dislikes from single other persons?
> 
> No, but I don't want people to keep feeling dread and wonder what he's
> going to say every time he blogs, and he's not being constructive, he
> hasn't been for a while, and this is by no means just about his last
> remarks, but about patterns of behaviour that he has had no interest in
> changing.
> 
> If you wish to still follow his blog for some reason, you can still
> subscribe directly, but at this point it doesn't belong on Planet Debian.

I share this feeling. Note that since he was demoted as a member, he
tagged 3 posts in p.d.o.* I read them, because I was interested in the
technical content. All 3 had those resentful/provocative bits which
could easily escalate to, say, yet another unhealthy thread in -project.

Also, people who followed -- for years -- the events which led to his
expulsion, know that his words clearly spread false information about
the process:

2022/01/14 - "After having been (again) demoted (timed perfectly to my
round birthday!) based on flimsy arguments" and "please direct your
complaints at the responsible entities in Debian.".

2022/02/09 - "Since I am not using Debian (lovely politics!)"

2022/03/22 - "most of my activity around Debian has come to a complete
halt (Send your thanks to da-manager@debian.org!)"

What could be next?

Unfortunately, he seems unable to break this pattern.

Thanks Jonathan,

* https://www.preining.info/blog/tag/debian/

--
Tiago

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#12692

Jonathan Carter - 23.03.22, 07:38:02 CET:
> On 2022/03/22 22:01, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> > In his latest post, Norbert wrote:
[…]
> I agree that his posts aren't appropriate for planet (I didn't pay
> close attention but noticed at least one post recently where he
> blames politics for not being part of Debian anymore). And I think
> blaming DAM when they only did their job on planet is quite horrible
> too.

I do not agree. Neither with the removal of his blog from Debian Planet, 
nor with the removal of this Debian developer status.

But I do not see a chance to convince anyone here.

So I leave it at stating my disagreement. I hope this much is still 
allowed here.

Best,
-- 
Martin

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#12694

Martin Steigerwald - 23.03.22, 08:54:12 CET:
> Jonathan Carter - 23.03.22, 07:38:02 CET:
> > On 2022/03/22 22:01, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> > > In his latest post, Norbert wrote:
> […]
> 
> > I agree that his posts aren't appropriate for planet (I didn't pay
> > close attention but noticed at least one post recently where he
> > blames politics for not being part of Debian anymore). And I think
> > blaming DAM when they only did their job on planet is quite horrible
> > too.
> 
> I do not agree. Neither with the removal of his blog from Debian
> Planet, nor with the removal of this Debian developer status.
> 
> But I do not see a chance to convince anyone here.
> 
> So I leave it at stating my disagreement. I hope this much is still
> allowed here.

I have basically almost given up on Debian. To the point that I 
considering discontinuing maintenance of my packages and let somebody 
else take over (orphaning and adopting are inappropriate words for that, 
those packages are not children – this IMHO is much more inappropriate 
than using master as a term, although I'd indeed avoid slave).

I consider large parts of Debian to be a toxic environment to me, where 
I always have to fear being attacked for just expressing my point of 
view. And I disagree with double standards. Some may express their point 
of view without being attacked, others may not. Regardless of whether 
their language is respectful or not. At least that has been my 
experience in the last years.

So if anyone likes to take over fio or fsmark, let me know, and I may 
just hand them over.

-- 
Martin

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#12696

Am 23.03.2022 um 09:03 schrieb Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de>:

>> So I leave it at stating my disagreement. I hope this much is still
>> allowed here.
[...]
> I consider large parts of Debian to be a toxic environment to me, where 
> I always have to fear being attacked for just expressing my point of 
> view. And I disagree with double standards. Some may express their point 
> of view without being attacked, others may not. Regardless of whether 
> their language is respectful or not. At least that has been my 
> experience in the last years.

Same over here. I also think that Debian as a project has become very toxic. 

It became exactly what it tried to prevent by all those initiatives that started like 10 years ago, like Code of Conduct etc. 

I see many old DDs became inactive or stepped down as a DD in the past years, yet not many new DDs joining or being as active as the old DDs been in the past. But this could also a misinterpretation of mine. Mailing lists seem to be really quiet compared to older times, traffic on IRC is also far less traffic than it used to be. Maybe communication shifted to other media or maybe DDs are more silent because they fear to be punished in some way or another for what they say. 

-- 
Ciao...          //    Web: http://blog.windfluechter.net
      Ingo     \X/     XMPP/Jabber:       ij@jhookipa.net
	
gpg pubkey:  http://www.juergensmann.de/ij_public_key.asc

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#12701 — Re: Is Debian sending people away?

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On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 10:05:59AM -0300, Antonio Terceiro wrote:
> I scrapped the data from https://nm.debian.org/public/people/, removed
> the rows with "(unknown)" in the "Since" column and the ones where
> "Account Name" is "None chosen yet". The number of people joining the
> project is not actually decreasing in the last 10 years. In fact, the
> data seems to display a growth trend since ... all those initiatives
> that started like 10 years ago, like Code of Conduct etc?¹
> 
> 2000   65 ████████████████████▏
> 2001  104 ████████████████████████████████▏
> 2002   54 ████████████████▊
> 2003  109 █████████████████████████████████▊
> 2004   57 █████████████████▋
> 2005   62 ███████████████████▎
> 2006   59 ██████████████████▎
> 2007   71 ██████████████████████
> 2008  118 ████████████████████████████████████▌
> 2009  109 █████████████████████████████████▊
> 2010  155 ███████████████████████████████████████████████▉
> 2011   40 ████████████▍
> 2012  121 █████████████████████████████████████▍
> 2013   64 ███████████████████▉
> 2014   87 ██████████████████████████▉
> 2015   75 ███████████████████████▎
> 2016  107 █████████████████████████████████▏
> 2017  162 ██████████████████████████████████████████████████
> 2018  128 ███████████████████████████████████████▋
> 2019  107 █████████████████████████████████▏
> 2020   99 ██████████████████████████████▋
> 2021  128 ███████████████████████████████████████▋
> 2022   17 █████

A correction: I also removed the rows for removed and emeritus status,
because in those cases the date represents when they left. The actual
numbers reduce a bit but the shape is still very similar:

        n
2000   63 ██████████████████████████████▋
2001  101 █████████████████████████████████████████████████▏
2002   51 ████████████████████████▉
2003   43 ████████████████████▉
2004   22 ██████████▊
2005   45 █████████████████████▉
2006   45 █████████████████████▉
2007   50 ████████████████████████▍
2008   36 █████████████████▌
2009   57 ███████████████████████████▊
2010   48 ███████████████████████▍
2011   27 █████████████▏
2012   74 ████████████████████████████████████
2013   43 ████████████████████▉
2014   37 ██████████████████
2015   49 ███████████████████████▉
2016   87 ██████████████████████████████████████████▎
2017   77 █████████████████████████████████████▌
2018   67 ████████████████████████████████▋
2019   63 ██████████████████████████████▋
2020   74 ████████████████████████████████████
2021  103 ██████████████████████████████████████████████████
2022   16 ███████▉

Now, if I use only the data from those removed/emeritus DDs, we can
verify how much people _are_ leaving:

        n
2000    2 █
2001    3 █▌
2002    3 █▌
2003   66 ███████████████████████████████▎
2004   34 ████████████████▏
2005   17 ████████▏
2006   12 █████▊
2007   20 █████████▌
2008   81 ██████████████████████████████████████▎
2009   52 ████████████████████████▋
2010  106 ██████████████████████████████████████████████████
2011   12 █████▊
2012    5 ██▍
2013   10 ████▊
2014   38 ██████████████████
2015   19 █████████
2016   17 ████████▏
2017   46 █████████████████████▊
2018   60 ████████████████████████████▍
2019   26 ████████████▍
2020   25 ███████████▉
2021   10 ████▊
2022    1 ▌

We have less people leaving than arriving, so at least based on this
dataset, Debian is _not_ shrinking.

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#12704 — Re: Is Debian sending people away?

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On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 10:34:21AM -0300, Antonio Terceiro wrote:
> We have less people leaving than arriving, so at least based on this
> dataset, Debian is _not_ shrinking.
If you are just counting the number of DDs, which is not the same as
actual activity, then it's relatively common knowledge that all GRs
recorded on the website, besides several very old ones, show roughly the
same number of DDs: ~1000.

-- 
WBR, wRAR

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#12705 — Is Debian sending people away?

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On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 11:40:41AM +0100, Ingo Jürgensmann wrote:
> Am 23.03.2022 um 09:03 schrieb Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de>:
> 
> >> So I leave it at stating my disagreement. I hope this much is still
> >> allowed here.
> [...]
> > I consider large parts of Debian to be a toxic environment to me, where 
> > I always have to fear being attacked for just expressing my point of 
> > view. And I disagree with double standards. Some may express their point 
> > of view without being attacked, others may not. Regardless of whether 
> > their language is respectful or not. At least that has been my 
> > experience in the last years.
> 
> Same over here. I also think that Debian as a project has become very toxic. 
> 
> It became exactly what it tried to prevent by all those initiatives
> that started like 10 years ago, like Code of Conduct etc. 
> 
> I see many old DDs became inactive or stepped down as a DD in the past
> years, yet not many new DDs joining or being as active as the old DDs
> been in the past. But this could also a misinterpretation of mine.

It is a misinterpretation.

I scrapped the data from https://nm.debian.org/public/people/, removed
the rows with "(unknown)" in the "Since" column and the ones where
"Account Name" is "None chosen yet". The number of people joining the
project is not actually decreasing in the last 10 years. In fact, the
data seems to display a growth trend since ... all those initiatives
that started like 10 years ago, like Code of Conduct etc?¹

2000   65 ████████████████████▏
2001  104 ████████████████████████████████▏
2002   54 ████████████████▊
2003  109 █████████████████████████████████▊
2004   57 █████████████████▋
2005   62 ███████████████████▎
2006   59 ██████████████████▎
2007   71 ██████████████████████
2008  118 ████████████████████████████████████▌
2009  109 █████████████████████████████████▊
2010  155 ███████████████████████████████████████████████▉
2011   40 ████████████▍
2012  121 █████████████████████████████████████▍
2013   64 ███████████████████▉
2014   87 ██████████████████████████▉
2015   75 ███████████████████████▎
2016  107 █████████████████████████████████▏
2017  162 ██████████████████████████████████████████████████
2018  128 ███████████████████████████████████████▋
2019  107 █████████████████████████████████▏
2020   99 ██████████████████████████████▋
2021  128 ███████████████████████████████████████▋
2022   17 █████

¹ of course correlation is not causation, I am not saying the perceived
  growth is happening *because* of the CoC etc.

> Mailing lists seem to be really quiet compared to older times, traffic
> on IRC is also far less traffic than it used to be. Maybe
> communication shifted to other media or maybe DDs are more silent
> because they fear to be punished in some way or another for what they
> say.

I see that being thrown around a lot, yet nobody has never received any
real sanction in the project for giving their opinion on a topic, but
for attacking, insulting, or hurting people, being told that was the
case, and the insisting in the same behavior, with that cycle repeating
itself a few times.

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#12714 — Re: Is Debian sending people away?

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On woensdag 23 maart 2022 14:05:57 CET Antonio Terceiro wrote:
> ¹ of course correlation is not causation, I am not saying the perceived
>   growth is happening *because* of the CoC etc.

Indeed. It could also be *in spite of*.
There's an equal amount of evidence for that: zero.

> > Mailing lists seem to be really quiet compared to older times, traffic
> > on IRC is also far less traffic than it used to be. Maybe
> > communication shifted to other media or maybe DDs are more silent
> > because they fear to be punished in some way or another for what they
> > say.
> 
> I see that being thrown around a lot, yet nobody has never received any
> real sanction in the project for giving their opinion on a topic,

Self-censorship is also a thing.
I could say there's a correlation between self-censorship and lower ML traffic, 
but for that there's also an equal amount of evidence: zero

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#12699

On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 08:38:02AM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
> > Can we delete him from planet?
> 
> Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!

... and if there was any doubt I could possibly vote you above NOTA, here it
goes away.  Continuing harassment of Norbert is not appropriate.

The toxic environment remaining here must stop.


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Eight legs good, four legs bad! -- when your drider pwns a
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ smelly goodie centaur.
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Rearkick OP -- my grandpa's brother-in-law got one-shotted
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ from full hp in RL, please nerf!

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#12706

Hi,


> ... and if there was any doubt I could possibly vote you above NOTA, here it
> goes away.  Continuing harassment of Norbert is not appropriate.
> 
> The toxic environment remaining here must stop.

While I agree that Jonathan has abused his powers and should not have removed anyone from planet on his own, your argumentation is toxic in itself.

You are justifying a bully. Norbert Preining is a bully, and has to be stopped. Justifying his actions and involve in victim blaming means you are a bully as well.

You can perfectly promote democracy and demote abuse of powers of single persons **and** refrain from accepting bullies at the same time.

-nik

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