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Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch

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  Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-01-21 16:50 +0100
    Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Barry Warsaw <barry@debian.org> - 2016-01-23 00:00 +0100
      Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-01-23 09:40 +0100
        Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Barry Warsaw <barry@debian.org> - 2016-01-24 03:00 +0100
          Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-01-24 04:10 +0100
            Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-01-24 06:40 +0100
              Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-01-24 07:10 +0100
              Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Barry Warsaw <barry@debian.org> - 2016-01-24 19:10 +0100
              Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-01-26 07:00 +0100
              Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Dmitry Shachnev <mitya57@debian.org> - 2016-01-26 18:00 +0100
                Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-01-27 04:40 +0100
                  Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-01-27 05:20 +0100
                    Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-01-27 10:50 +0100
              Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-01-29 23:30 +0100
                Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-01-30 00:10 +0100
      Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2016-02-16 01:10 +0100
        Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Barry Warsaw <barry@debian.org> - 2016-02-16 01:50 +0100
          Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Barry Warsaw <barry@debian.org> - 2016-02-16 02:00 +0100
          Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2016-02-16 02:00 +0100
            Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Barry Warsaw <barry@debian.org> - 2016-02-16 02:20 +0100
    Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-01-24 06:50 +0100
      Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-01-24 07:00 +0100
        Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-01-24 07:20 +0100
          Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-01-25 06:00 +0100
            Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-01-25 06:30 +0100
      Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-01-24 07:10 +0100
    Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2016-02-15 23:30 +0100
      Re: Python Policy: Things to consider for Stretch Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-02-16 03:50 +0100

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#8146

Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> writes:

> I've taken a run through the current Python Policy to see where I
> think it needs to be updated for Stretch. The updates largely fall
> into four categories: […]

This is great to see, thank you Scott.

Where is the Git (I assume?) repository you're using for VCS of this
policy document?

> This is just my opinion on stuff I found. I'm interested in feedback
> on how these changes look and what else ought to be considered

I like what I see (modulo other discussions in this thread).


One small nit: the examples of what is included versus excluded of the
“scope” of a Python version reference. It used to say:

     as it seems reasonable to provide them.  (Note: For the scope of this
     document, Python versions are synonymous to feature releases, i.e.
     Python 2.7 and 2.7.1 are sub-minor versions of the same Python version
     2.7, but Python 2.6 and 2.7 are indeed different versions.)

The contrast “2.7 and 2.7.1 are […] the same Python version 2.7”, with
“2.6 and 2.7 are […] different versions”, uses version “2.7” in both
parts.

I think it's important to the example that an *identical* version is in
*both* arms of that contrast, to be clear what is being distinguished.

So in the re-write I'd advise again using an identical version in both parts:

     as it seems reasonable to provide them.  (Note: For the scope of this
     document, Python versions are synonymous to feature releases, i.e.
     Python 3.5 and 3.5.1 are sub-minor versions of the same Python version
     3.5, but Python 3.4 and 3.5 are indeed different versions.)

If I can know where to access the VCS repository I can make a patch for
that, if you like.

-- 
 \       “Come on, if your religion is so vulnerable that a little bit |
  `\           of disrespect is going to bring it down, it's not worth |
_o__)               believing in, frankly.” —Terry Gilliam, 2005-01-18 |
Ben Finney

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#8147

Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> writes:

> Where is the Git (I assume?) repository you're using for VCS of this
> policy document?

Found it; the source document is ‘python-policy.sgml’ in the source VCS
for ‘python3’. Currently that's a Bazaar repository at
<URL:bzr+ssh://bzr.debian.org/bzr/pkg-python/python3-defaults-debian/>.

-- 
 \          “The entertainment industry calls DRM "security" software, |
  `\         because it makes them secure from their customers.” —Cory |
_o__)                                             Doctorow, 2014-02-05 |
Ben Finney

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#8150

On Sunday, January 24, 2016 04:58:26 PM Ben Finney wrote:
> Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> writes:
> > Where is the Git (I assume?) repository you're using for VCS of this
> > policy document?
> 
> Found it; the source document is ‘python-policy.sgml’ in the source VCS
> for ‘python3’. Currently that's a Bazaar repository at
> <URL:bzr+ssh://bzr.debian.org/bzr/pkg-python/python3-defaults-debian/>.

That's correct.

Scott K

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#8152

Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> writes:

> On Sunday, January 24, 2016 04:58:26 PM Ben Finney wrote:
> > Found it; the source document is ‘python-policy.sgml’ in the source
> > VCS for ‘python3’. Currently that's a Bazaar repository at
> > <URL:bzr+ssh://bzr.debian.org/bzr/pkg-python/python3-defaults-debian/>.
>
> That's correct.

Hmm, apparently I've got the wrong thing. I've got changes from you,
most recently 2016-01-11; followed by later changes as recent as
2016-01-18:

=====
$ bzr info
Repository checkout (format: 2a)
Location:
  repository checkout root: /home/bignose/Projects/debian/python3/python3-defaults-debian/trunk
        checkout of branch: bzr+ssh://bzr.debian.org/bzr/pkg-python/python3-defaults-debian/
[…]

$ bzr log --log-format=line --limit 3
340: Matthias Klose 2016-01-18 - drop python3.4 from the defaults
339: Matthias Klose 2016-01-17 * Drop Python 3.4 as a supported python3 version.
338: Scott Kitterman 2016-01-11 {3.5.1-1} Upload to unstable
=====

But the ‘debian/python-policy.sgml’ document has a version:

=====
$ grep '<version>' debian/python-policy.sgml 
      <version>version 0.4.1.0</version>
=====

which doesn't match what you showed (containing “version 0.10.1.0”) at
<URL:http://kitterman.com/debian/python-policy.new-from-old.diff.html>.

What am I missing? Is there a different repository or branch I need to
use?

-- 
 \     “Capitalism has destroyed our belief in any effective power but |
  `\      that of self interest backed by force.” —George Bernard Shaw |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#8153

On January 24, 2016 11:59:14 PM EST, Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> writes:
>
>> On Sunday, January 24, 2016 04:58:26 PM Ben Finney wrote:
>> > Found it; the source document is ‘python-policy.sgml’ in the source
>> > VCS for ‘python3’. Currently that's a Bazaar repository at
>> >
><URL:bzr+ssh://bzr.debian.org/bzr/pkg-python/python3-defaults-debian/>.
>>
>> That's correct.
>
>Hmm, apparently I've got the wrong thing. I've got changes from you,
>most recently 2016-01-11; followed by later changes as recent as
>2016-01-18:
>
>=====
>$ bzr info
>Repository checkout (format: 2a)
>Location:
>repository checkout root:
>/home/bignose/Projects/debian/python3/python3-defaults-debian/trunk
>checkout of branch:
>bzr+ssh://bzr.debian.org/bzr/pkg-python/python3-defaults-debian/
>[…]
>
>$ bzr log --log-format=line --limit 3
>340: Matthias Klose 2016-01-18 - drop python3.4 from the defaults
>339: Matthias Klose 2016-01-17 * Drop Python 3.4 as a supported python3
>version.
>338: Scott Kitterman 2016-01-11 {3.5.1-1} Upload to unstable
>=====
>
>But the ‘debian/python-policy.sgml’ document has a version:
>
>=====
>$ grep '<version>' debian/python-policy.sgml 
>      <version>version 0.4.1.0</version>
>=====
>
>which doesn't match what you showed (containing “version 0.10.1.0”) at
><URL:http://kitterman.com/debian/python-policy.new-from-old.diff.html>.
>
>What am I missing? Is there a different repository or branch I need to
>use?

Python-defaults, not python3-defaults.

Scott K

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#8149

On Sunday, January 24, 2016 04:46:09 PM Ben Finney wrote:
> Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> writes:
> > I've taken a run through the current Python Policy to see where I
> > think it needs to be updated for Stretch. The updates largely fall
> > into four categories: […]
> 
> This is great to see, thank you Scott.
> 
> Where is the Git (I assume?) repository you're using for VCS of this
> policy document?

It's in bzr, actually.  You can find the repository at 
https://alioth.debian.org/scm/loggerhead/pkg-python/python-defaults-debian/files (that page has a link to make a branch using bzr.

The Python Policy is in debian/python-policy.sgml

You can make a text version using:

debiandoc2text debian/python-policy.sgml

> > This is just my opinion on stuff I found. I'm interested in feedback
> > on how these changes look and what else ought to be considered
> 
> I like what I see (modulo other discussions in this thread).
> 
> 
> One small nit: the examples of what is included versus excluded of the
> “scope” of a Python version reference. It used to say:
> 
>      as it seems reasonable to provide them.  (Note: For the scope of this
>      document, Python versions are synonymous to feature releases, i.e.
>      Python 2.7 and 2.7.1 are sub-minor versions of the same Python version
>      2.7, but Python 2.6 and 2.7 are indeed different versions.)
> 
> The contrast “2.7 and 2.7.1 are […] the same Python version 2.7”, with
> “2.6 and 2.7 are […] different versions”, uses version “2.7” in both
> parts.
> 
> I think it's important to the example that an *identical* version is in
> *both* arms of that contrast, to be clear what is being distinguished.
> 
> So in the re-write I'd advise again using an identical version in both
> parts:
> 
>      as it seems reasonable to provide them.  (Note: For the scope of this
>      document, Python versions are synonymous to feature releases, i.e.
>      Python 3.5 and 3.5.1 are sub-minor versions of the same Python version
>      3.5, but Python 3.4 and 3.5 are indeed different versions.)
> 
> If I can know where to access the VCS repository I can make a patch for
> that, if you like.

Great.  See above.

I just pushed the edits I've proposed so what's in there now should be clean 
for you to work on top of.  Pushing them to the repository doesn't make them 
any less draft in my opinion (in case anyone was wondering).

Scott K

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#8207

On Tuesday, February 02, 2016 06:44:57 AM Ben Finney wrote:
> Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> writes:
> > * Address all the language around Python 2 versus Python 3 versus
> > 
> >   Python general, and re-order or re-word to focus *primarily* on Python
> >   3, with Python 2 treated as the still-supported legacy system.
> > 
> > I'm maintaining a Bazaar branch for this, feel free to get it::
> >     $ mkdir python.benfinney/ && cd python.benfinney/
> >     $ bzr branch --bind
> >     http://vcs.whitetree.org/bzr/public/debian/python/python-defaults-deb
> >     ian/devel/
> Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> writes:
> > Thank you, Scott! I'll proceed with the semantic changes that promote
> > Python 3 to the primary position.
> 
> Those changes are now in the above branch. The summary of changes from
> the commit messages:
> 
>     $ bzr log --log-format line --revision ancestor:..
>     430: Ben Finney 2016-02-02 Re-phrase version distinctions to make Python
> 3 primary. 429: Ben Finney 2016-02-01 When only Python 2 is specified, just
> use literal “2” major version. 428: Ben Finney 2016-02-01 Use Python 3
> examples where appropriate. 427: Ben Finney 2016-01-31 Refine some grammar
> and punctuation. 426: Ben Finney 2016-01-31 Distinguish “Python” the
> unversioned system versus “Python 2”. 425: Ben Finney 2016-01-30 [merge]
> Merge from ‘python-defaults-debian’ mainline.
> 
> Also attached to this message as a Bazaar patch bundle.

I've merged these changes.  I have a little bit of adjustment I want to do on 
top of it, but this helps a lot.  Thanks,

Scott K

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#8213

Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> writes:

> On Tuesday, February 02, 2016 06:44:57 AM Ben Finney wrote:
> > Ben Finney <ben+debian@benfinney.id.au> writes:
> > > * Address all the language around Python 2 versus Python 3 versus
> > > Python general, and re-order or re-word to focus *primarily* on
> > > Python 3, with Python 2 treated as the still-supported legacy
> > > system.
>
> I've merged these changes. I have a little bit of adjustment I want to
> do on top of it, but this helps a lot. Thanks,

You're welcome, and thank you for working to get this in.

-- 
 \        “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more |
  `\   robust, sophisticated, and well supported in logic and argument |
_o__)                                     than others.” —Douglas Adams |
Ben Finney

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