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Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python Language Summit

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  Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python Language  Summit Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> - 2021-05-12 23:30 +0200
    Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python  Language Summit Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2021-05-13 01:10 +0200
      Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python  Language Summit Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> - 2021-05-13 01:30 +0200
        Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python  Language Summit Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2021-05-13 22:50 +0200
      Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python  Language Summit Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> - 2021-05-24 16:40 +0200
    Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python  Language Summit Yaroslav Halchenko <debian@onerussian.com> - 2021-05-13 15:50 +0200

#13357 — Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python Language Summit

Matthias Klose gave a presentation at the Python Language Summit on the
Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro.

There's a follow-on open space for working through some of these
questions, on Saturday:
https://us.pycon.org/2021/events/open-spaces/#openspace-42
2021-05-15 18:15 UTC in Lounge 2

Matthias covered:
* No python on Debian systems by default.
* Python2 removal coming soon, just hanging around for PyPy at this point.
* One 3.x version at a time. Doesn't line up with cpython's support terms.
* Python is split into multiple binary packages, for dependency (and
  historically licensing) reasons.
* DFSG
* autopkgtests, and automatic testing of reverse-dependencies
* The existence of the "deadsnakes" PPA for Ubuntu, for people who want
  non-standard Python versions.
* Applications generally are installed outside the default sys.path.
* Modules are shipped installed with --single-version-externally-managed.
* The site-packages => dist-packages rename.
* PEP 3149 sharing a single /usr/share/python3/ across versions and
  implementations.
* Pip isn't used in our packages (except in rare cases).
* A historic look through license issues in the cpython sources, in the
  past.
* The ensurepip module depends on wheels that are shipped without source.
* pip and distro package managers get in conflict, esp. with
  sudo pip install.
* Arch inclusively. Debian includes some weird architectures, some of
  which aren't widely used.
* Communication issues between the Core Python developers + PyPA and
  Debian/Ubuntu recently.

There was a strong Q&A section. I didn't take notes for this. Off the
top of my head:
* What do we provide for scientific / data scientist use cases?
* Are there technical issues with using python3.x where x != default?
* Are we aware of the problems on Debian?
* Who decides what is/isn't packaged?
* Have we considered a separate "system-python" that lives off PATH, and
  is used by Debian packaged applications. Then developers can get their
  own pristine python?
* Who is still suggesting sudo pip install? pip upstream would be happy
  to help hunt down any references like that.

SR

-- 
Stefano Rivera
  http://tumbleweed.org.za/
  +1 415 683 3272

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#13358 — Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python Language Summit

On 5/12/21 11:21 PM, Stefano Rivera wrote:
> Matthias Klose gave a presentation at the Python Language Summit on the
> Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro.
> [..]
This looks great. Is there a video of it somewhere?

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

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#13359 — Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python Language Summit

Hi Thomas (2021.05.12_23:06:45_+0000)
> On 5/12/21 11:21 PM, Stefano Rivera wrote:
> > Matthias Klose gave a presentation at the Python Language Summit on the
> > Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro.
> > [..]
> This looks great. Is there a video of it somewhere?

No, there won't be videos published, only blog posts written.

SR

-- 
Stefano Rivera
  http://tumbleweed.org.za/
  +1 415 683 3272

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#13362 — Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python Language Summit

On 5/13/21 1:26 AM, Stefano Rivera wrote:
> Hi Thomas (2021.05.12_23:06:45_+0000)
>> On 5/12/21 11:21 PM, Stefano Rivera wrote:
>>> Matthias Klose gave a presentation at the Python Language Summit on the
>>> Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro.
>>> [..]
>> This looks great. Is there a video of it somewhere?
> 
> No, there won't be videos published, only blog posts written.
> 
> SR

Matthias, if you read this: you *MUST* make such a presentation at the
next debconf, *PLEASE* !!!

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

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#13402 — Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python Language Summit

Hi Thomas (2021.05.12_23:06:45_+0000)
> This looks great. Is there a video of it somewhere?

The official blog post on it has been published:

https://pyfound.blogspot.com/2021/05/the-2021-python-language-summit_23.html

SR

-- 
Stefano Rivera
  http://tumbleweed.org.za/
  +1 415 683 3272

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#13360 — Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python Language Summit

FWIW, if might come handy in the future, my 4c:

> * What do we provide for scientific / data scientist use cases?

- https://snapshot.debian.org/ is the unique service allowing to "go
  back in time" or just "freeze" the environment given a date.

  Very handy for reproducibility, collab, etc.

  Not possible AFAIK on pypi or even conda unless researcher prepared a
  full exhaustive list of frozen package==version@build 

  nd_freeze from neurodebian-freeze assists in making use of that
  feature.  I just stick it at the top of my Dockerfile/Singularity file
  recipes to make container itself as reproducible as possible, so later
  on I could add another component less likely affecting already
  existing ones.

- wider arch support for extensions and non-python libraries/tools.
  ppc64el is gaining some momentum AFAIK in sci computing

- better guarantees to achieve desired installation goal.

  examples of pip/conda failing to resolve depends are more numerous
  AFAIK.

- integration and downstream testing at package build time and via
  https://ci.debian.net/

  anyone who cares to not only "get it running" but have some assurance
  of correct operation (not junk-in-junk-out) should appreciate that.

  pypi has no concerns on that at all.  conda is doing quite good job
  and does allow for some downstream testing.  But it remains "more
  fluid", unlike a clear cut releases of debian with better guarantees
  for correct operation


-- 
Yaroslav O. Halchenko
Center for Open Neuroscience     http://centerforopenneuroscience.org
Dartmouth College, 419 Moore Hall, Hinman Box 6207, Hanover, NH 03755
WWW:   http://www.linkedin.com/in/yarik        

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