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Re: Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python Language Summit

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(apologies i forgot to say, please do cc me, i am using the list
archives reply-to
links at https://lists.debian.org/debian-python/2021/05/msg00036.html)

Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> wrote:

> All the horrors that you are painting after this paragraph, are due to
> the fact that you aren't doing "apt-get dist-upgrade". I'm having a hard
> time understanding why you're both:
> - not doing "apt-get dist-upgrade"

because precisely the difficulties encountered, and due to software development
that critically requires more recent variants of what is typically in
debian/stable
i.e. usually a minimum of one even three years out-of-date.

a dist-upgrade to debian / testing - a way to obtain the latest
variants of critical
software - frequently resulted in massive breakage.

i quickly learned never to attempt that again given the massive disruption
it caused to me being able to earn money as a software engineer.

> - complaining that it's breaking your system

ah, you're missing the point by focussing on the background and context.
also, i didn't "complain" (despite it causing distress for some considerable
number of years), i would have said, "i have a complaint" and stopped
at that, rather than moved on to describe the details of what the root cause
is.

> Could you care to explain? This makes absolutely no sense.

i could - but doing so is a distraction. i would prefer to solicit some
responses that acknowledge that this is an actual problem that needs
solving.

Bryan's message unfortunately is a repeat of prior experiences
in reporting this issue over the years.

> By the way, since you're never doing "apt-get dist-upgrade", it means
> your system is full of security issues that aren't getting fixed.
> Hopefully, the computer system(s) you're talking about isn't connected
> to internet, right?

indeed.  it's a development laptop on which i am critically reliant for
financial income and for furthering free software.

Brian May wrote:

> A rolling type update might be convenient, but it is not supported by
> Debian, and has not been supported by Debian in sometime. There are
> complexities in such an arrangement, and it is difficult to test such
> arrangements will work as expected. Such an arrangement is not
> guaranteed or tested to work.

Brian: as an experienced debian systems administrator and python
developer I'm not asking for help with either, and over the past 20 years
have successfully learned and deployed the techniques required to
keep a rolling system operational, in order to keep my business
operational and not lose money due to massive downtime either
from having to transfer 10 million source code files from laptop to
laptop, or from having to perform disaster recovery due to breakage.

like Thomas, you are missing the point by focussing on the context
and background material rather than focussing on the problem.

this was also the tack taken by others when i explained the problem:
"it's your own fault, this isn't supported, therefore we don't have to
do anything, therefore it's not a bug, therefore the bugreport is
summarily dismissed".

in my report, if you read it again carefully, i specifically stated that
*multiple debian maintainers* are receiving *multiple complaints* of
breakage and disruption due to the standard debhelper-python
build system not following the "safe" practice outlined by
numpy and sci-py.

i can only surmise that they probably don't want to say anything
because the message being sent to them on summary closure
of bugreports is that, well, "nobody cares".

what i can say is that they're getting pretty fed up of constantly
having to close bugreports, every time someone raises this
issue, that's pretty clear from what they didn't say, if you know
what i mean.

once this is accepted as actually being a problem that needs solving,
rather than being avoided because "it's not supported, you're on your
own, not our problem", i am happy to help advise and discuss
solutions.

given that this has been ongoing for 10 years now i have been giving
it some thought for a long, long time.

however before getting to a discussion of solutions i would prefer
to see acknowledgement that it is recognised as a problem that
people actively wish to see fixed.  otherwise i will have to wait patiently
for the next disaster situation to occur, or, sadly, after 20 years of
using debian, and remaining loyal to it despite maltreatment, i will
have to find an alternative distro.

what is stopping me from doing that is the severe financial consequences
involved and risk to myself and my family due to my income being
far below average.  the downtime that would result is a huge risk,
plus learning a new distro also compromises my effectiveness which
also results in further lost income.

what i am saying is: this is serious - i am effectlvely financially
trapped and critically dependent on the decisions that you make,
even though i am not paying you money for the work that you do.

l.

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Thread

Re: Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python  Language Summit Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl@lkcl.net> - 2021-05-17 08:50 +0200
  Re: Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python  Language Summit Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2021-05-17 14:30 +0200
    Re: Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python  Language Summit Brian May <bam@debian.org> - 2021-05-18 00:00 +0200
  Re: Challenges packaging Python for a Linux distro - at Python  Language Summit Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2021-05-17 16:20 +0200

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